84 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

RestosIII, on 02 February 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I just thought of something stupid and super off-topic because of you mentioning that. Gonna say it anyways.

I'm actually really surprised there isn't a faction in Battletech, probably a religious one, that despises mechs as being the height of mankind's egotism, trying to recreate their own image in giant war machines. I would have highly preferred seeing a faction like that trying to purge the galaxy of mechs over what we got with the wobbies.

the Outworld Alliance does not use Mechs frequently
and after the "Third Transferthe Republic tried to reduce standing armies and mothballed BattleMechs
(I think the explanation for this wasn't very good - but I loved it because this made Mechs again rare - bringing back some "flair" of the 80's after the Civil War and hundreds of regiments and galaxies of Mechs and only mechs. I did hate MW3 and MW4 for the sheer number of Mechs you had to kill
While MechCommander had also many enemy mechs - a single Mechs still a force tanks and infantry not so much.


I really hope they don't do the mistake in MW5 - to many Mechs

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 February 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Zergling]

They dropped the 'mechs being rare' thing in Dark Age era pretty quickly; IIRC, by the end of the first novel there were already battalions of mechs going around.

And given MW5 is still MechWarrior 5, don't expect mechs to be a rarity.

[WolvesX]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

They dropped the 'mechs being rare' thing in Dark Age era pretty quickly; IIRC, by the end of the first novel there were already battalions of mechs going around.

And given MW5 is still MechWarrior 5, don't expect mechs to be a rarity.

IS MW5 in the Dark Ages?

[Zergling]

WolvesX, on 02 February 2017 - 02:33 AM, said:

IS MW5 in the Dark Ages?

http://www.mw5mercs.com/ Says 3015, which is late 3rd Succession War era.

That's pretty much the era Battletech started in when the game was first released back in the 1980s, and it was a time when mechs were considered rare and highly valuable.
The idea of mechs being rare was discarded pretty quickly though; they were still frequently said to be far outnumbered by conventional vehicles, but almost all action described in novels and lore still primarily involved mechs.

But it is rather doubtful the rarity of mechs will be represented; pretty much every Battletech computer game has had heaps of mechs, even ones set in the late-3rd Succession War era like the first Mechwarrior Game and The Crescent Hawks Inception.

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 02:48 AM.

[Alan Davion]

RestosIII, on 02 February 2017 - 01:07 AM, said:

I just thought of something stupid and super off-topic because of you mentioning that. Gonna say it anyways.

I'm actually really surprised there isn't a faction in Battletech, probably a religious one, that despises mechs as being the height of mankind's egotism, trying to recreate their own image in giant war machines. I would have highly preferred seeing a faction like that trying to purge the galaxy of mechs over what we got with the wobbies.

Read the 5th book in the Gray Death Saga, Tactics of Duty.

There's a religious group on Caledonia, and quite possibly spread all through the Inner Sphere known as the "Word of Jihad", who are ZEALOUSLY anti-technology. At least, with regards to any technology that they don't think serves man and only man.

For example, I'll put in an excerpt here from Tactics of Duty, pages 215-216.

Spoiler

"Y' ken, I've been aye wondering about tha' sir," McCall told the proclaimer. "Just where do you folks draw the line between what's a machine and what's not? Or would y' hae us all shed our clothes an' frolic naked in the forest?"

"Certainly not!" the man said, looking shocked.

"Ah, weel, I'm relieved t' hear tha'. Caledonian winters can be aye a mite cold, an' nuts an' berries are hard t' come by when the snow's up to your chin. But d' y' nae see? The clothing you wear an' the processed food y' eat are both products of our demonic technological culture, would y' nae agree, lad?"

"The Word proclaims that there is a difference between tools that serve the maker, and machines that rule him." He plucked at the hem of the cloak he wore. "Even a piece of clothing can become a master, though, if it so rules our thoughts and our souls that we become slaves to it. To fashion. To rich garments or clothing that proves we're better than our neighbor. Better to live naked, then, or clad in tree bark, than be slaves to a thing!"

"Aye, aye," McCall said. "An' I must admit I hae' nothin' against idealism, or against idealistic stands. I've made one or two in my own life. But I tell y' noo tha' there's a time for faith in your Word, an' a time t' get off your *** an' get things done."

"All good works proceed from the faith," Caruthers said.

"Do you really believe you can attack Battlemechs wi' your bare hands?"

Caruthers glanced down at the woman who'd talked about McCall not needing a Battlemech and gave her a condescending smile. "Janet here spoke emotionally, Major. The way to final triumph and salvation is essentially a passive one. We will resist peacefully. We will answer hatred with love. And love will triumph in the end."

[Bombast]

Alan Davion, on 02 February 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

Read the 5th book in the Gray Death Saga, Tactics of Duty.

There's a religious group on Caledonia, and quite possibly spread all through the Inner Sphere known as the "Word of Jihad", who are ZEALOUSLY anti-technology. At least, with regards to any technology that they don't think serves man and only man.

For example, I'll put in an excerpt here from Tactics of Duty, pages 215-216.

Spoiler

"Y' ken, I've been aye wondering about tha' sir," McCall told the proclaimer. "Just where do you folks draw the line between what's a machine and what's not? Or would y' hae us all shed our clothes an' frolic naked in the forest?"

"Certainly not!" the man said, looking shocked.

"Ah, weel, I'm relieved t' hear tha'. Caledonian winters can be aye a mite cold, an' nuts an' berries are hard t' come by when the snow's up to your chin. But d' y' nae see? The clothing you wear an' the processed food y' eat are both products of our demonic technological culture, would y' nae agree, lad?"

"The Word proclaims that there is a difference between tools that serve the maker, and machines that rule him." He plucked at the hem of the cloak he wore. "Even a piece of clothing can become a master, though, if it so rules our thoughts and our souls that we become slaves to it. To fashion. To rich garments or clothing that proves we're better than our neighbor. Better to live naked, then, or clad in tree bark, than be slaves to a thing!"

"Aye, aye," McCall said. "An' I must admit I hae' nothin' against idealism, or against idealistic stands. I've made one or two in my own life. But I tell y' noo tha' there's a time for faith in your Word, an' a time t' get off your *** an' get things done."

"All good works proceed from the faith," Caruthers said.

"Do you really believe you can attack Battlemechs wi' your bare hands?"

Caruthers glanced down at the woman who'd talked about McCall not needing a Battlemech and gave her a condescending smile. "Janet here spoke emotionally, Major. The way to final triumph and salvation is essentially a passive one. We will resist peacefully. We will answer hatred with love. And love will triumph in the end."

There's also the several Amish worlds (Or, rather, Amish continents), who have the typical distaste for technology, Battlemechs included.

[Ori Disciple]

Karl Streiger, on 02 February 2017 - 02:05 AM, said:

I really hope they don't do the mistake in MW5 - to many Mechs

The problem, though, is that it is a battletech game. The whole reason we play the tabletop game, as well as the mechwarrior video games for that matter, is to shoot robots with our robots. It's just not as fun to shoot vehicles/infantry in a robot.

[Sigmar Sich]

I'm glad people started to ask this question.
I actually did a research near the beginning of this game, though it is outdated, still can be of use.
But keep in mind - this is from memories/old notes, and mistakes can happen, and have gaps. And keep in mind - any mech can be salvaged.
Probably in becoming month i update and reorganise data in new format, since game have many new stuff, and i think i returned to active play.

Locust - mass prodused by everyone, used by everyone.
1V is original Star League model.
Faction specific: 3S - Steiner, 1M - Davion (surprise, letters don't always mean house name), 3M - Marik.

Commando - Steiner pride. 2D is most common, 3A second common, 1D - aged and obsolete, but still present, 1B - unpopular experiment to revive original model 1A.
2D and 3A are somewhat shared with FedCom ally - Davion.

Spider - currently produced by Marik
5V - original Starl League model. 5D - Davion, 5K - Kurita.

Urbanmech - Liao
UM-60R is original model and can be found anywhere, other models - Liao only.

Firestarter - common everywhere. Active production - Steiner.
Original model - H, and most common. S - Steiner and probably Davion ally.

Jenner - active production - Kurita
Original model - 7D, used by everyone, but barely present ourside Kurita space. F - uncommon model, K- Kurita.

Panther - Kurita mech.
8Z - original Star League model, could be present in other houses.

Raven - Liao pride. Produced and used by them, except 2X model - this is Davion retrofit. They captured so many Ravens, so civilians thought Raven was Davion design. Imagine Liaos' butthurt. This captured Ravens was retrofited with Davion higher quality equipment.

Wolfhound - FedCom shared mech, active production - Steiner.

Cicada - Marik
Original Star League model 3A, used by everyone, though in small numbers. Other models - Marik.

Blackjack - Davion (and somewhat Liao, though they dont like it)
BJ-1 - unpopular original Star League model. 1DC and 2 - Davion, 3 - Liao.

Phoenix Hawk - mass produced and used mech.
1 - original SL model. 1K - Kurita, 3S - Steiner

Vindicator - Liao pride.
1AA was failed model, and was "gifted" to Rasalhague.

Centurion - Davion pride.
A - original model, had flawed AC/10 design. AH - Davion(?), AL - Steiner only, D - Davion, somewhat shared with FedCom ally,

Crab - ComStar mech.
CRB-20 was supplied to Kurita. 27 - original model. Were used by Clans for secondary duties.

Enforcer - Davion pride. Some models (5D?) shared with FedCom ally - Steiner.
P models - House Bullock only, manufactured by PGI, Terra.

Hunchback - very-very common mech everywhere. But mostly associated with Marik (we dont have their exclusive model 5M)
Manufactured and traded by Marik heavily, and somewhat produced by Steiners. Probably by others too, cant say.

Trebuchet - originally Centurion's partner. Currently produced by Marik
5N - original SL model. 5J, 7N - Marik, 7K - Kurita. (5S - Steiner model with SRMs, but we dont have it)
3C - obsolete original model.

Bushwacker - produced by Steiner in times of Clan invasion. Shared with some IS factions.(Davion and Kurita for sure)

Griffin - very old mech, from Mackie times. Main current manufacturers - Steiner and Marik. Secondary manufacturers - other houses except Liao.
1N - original Terran Hegemony model. 2N - SL elite model, not used by houses. 1S - Steiner. New models have funny story - 3M was Marik model, but just when they were ready to produce it - Steiners came and occupied planet with GRF-3M factories. So 3M produced both by Marik and Steiner. And, same story happened in the same time to 1DS model (not in the game) when Kurita captured Davion planet.

Kintaro - ComStar mech. Currently produced by Davion
19 - original SL model, used by ComGuards. 18 - Davion downgraded model. 20 - models supplied to Kurita.

Shadow Hawk - very common mech everywhere.
2H - original SL model. 2D, 2D2 - Davion, 2K - Kurita, 5M - Marik. 2H models still produced in Periphery.

Wolverine - currently produced by Marik and Davion and Kurita.
6R - original SL model. Funny, but we don't have 6M model for Marik, biggest manufacturer. 6K, 7K - Kurita.7D - Davion.

Dragon - Kurita pride.
Rasalhague, as former part of Kurita space, have them too.

Quickdraw - currently manufactured by Marik and Kurita. Can be used by Steiner and Davion too.
4G - origina SL model, 4H - alternative. 5K - Kurita.

Rifleman - Davion
3N - original SL model, somewhat shared with Steiner.

Catapult - Liao.
C1- original SL model. K2- Kurita.

Jagermech - Davion pride
Laio can use salvaged Jagers.

Thunderbold - common mech, main manufacturer - Steiner and Marik.
5S - original SL model, 5SS, 9S - Steiner, 9SE - Eridani Light Horse mercs. We don't have Marik's 7M.

Cataphract - Liao pride.
Davion captured planet with its factories, do they have it too.
1X, 2X - original Liao models. 3L - Laio upgrade. 4X - Davion experiment, 3D - Davion upgrade, somewhat shared with Steiner.

Grasshopper - common to all, but in small numbers.
5H - original SL model, very popular so it still used more than modifications.

Warhammer - 6R - original SL model, common everywhere, 6D - Davion, 7S - FedCom (Steiner production).

Black Knight - old Star League mech, used in small numbers by everyone, not sure about current production.

Marauder - 3R - old popular SL model, used by all. 5D - Davion. 5M - Marik.

Orion - Marik pride.
1K - original SL model, in small numbers can be used by others.

Awesome - Marik mech, but actively traded to everyone.

Victor - Davion pride.
9B - original SL model, mostly Davion. 9S - Steiner. 9K - Kurita - they captured Davion's only Victor factory in war of 3039. Imagine Davions' butthurt, they now have to buy Victory from st.Ives Compact.. 9D - Davion, not present in the game but same as 9K, with different manufacturers for components.

Zeus - Steiner pride. Somewhat shared with Davion, but they dont like Zeus just because it is Steiner's.
5S - prototype (only one mech), 6S and 6T - main models, 9S - upgrade, 9S2 - upgrade's modification.

Battlemaster - in small numbers manufactured by Steiner and Marik. Rare mech.
1G - original SL model, used by everyone, 1S, 3S - Steiner, 1D - Davion, 3M - marik. 2C - ComStar, but for some "mistake" it was supplied to Kurita.

Stalker - produced by Steiner and Marik.
3F - original SL model, 3H - siege modification; used by everyone. 5S - Steiner, 5M - Marik.

Cyclops - very rare mech.
11-P - House Bullock, PGI, Terra. 11-A-DC - Liaos model with dual cockpit.
Not sure really, can be wrong here.

Highlander - ComStar mech.
732 - original SL model, manufactured in current Steiner space, model still can be used by Steiner. 733 - downgraded licensed model, produced in Laio space (?), used by all.
733 model was also supplied by ComStar to Kurita.

Mauler - Kurita mech, former Daboku

Banshee - old unpopular mech.
3E - original Hegemony model. "Used" by all. 3M - Marik. 3S - Steiner, only popular modification.

Atlas - iconic Star League mech. Currently manufactured by Steiner and Kurita. Fromerly Davions manufactured it too, untill losin factories to Kurita.
D - original SL model, used by everyone. DC - Steiner militia refit. K - Kurita. S - FedCom (Steiner manufacture)

King Crab - ComStar only.

Phew, this should cover IS.
As for Clans - sorry, later.. Sorry for possible mistakes, i was in a hurry.

[WolvesX]

Wonderfull! +1

[WolvesX]

The Mauler is a KURITA mech only? Never thought that!

Crab & King Crab & Black Knight are only produced by Comstar on Terra?

Edited by WolvesX, 03 February 2017 - 03:39 AM.

[Pyed]

WolvesX, on 03 February 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

The Mauler is a KURITA mech only? Never thought that!

Crab & King Crab & Black Knight are only produced by Comstar on Terra?

Comstar is ALL ABOUT crabs, yo.

[Pyed]

Ori Disciple, on 02 February 2017 - 07:40 AM, said:

The problem, though, is that it is a battletech game. The whole reason we play the tabletop game, as well as the mechwarrior video games for that matter, is to shoot robots with our robots. It's just not as fun to shoot vehicles/infantry in a robot.

Except when it inevitably ends up as "You are one mech. Your mission is to kill ten mechs." or "You have a lance of 4 mechs. Your mission is to kill 40 mechs." as it always seems to come to. If the game designers want easy cannon fodder enemies I'd prefer they weren't all mechs.

[Karl Streiger]

Pyed, on 03 February 2017 - 04:51 AM, said:

Except when it inevitably ends up as "You are one mech. Your mission is to kill ten mechs." or "You have a lance of 4 mechs. Your mission is to kill 40 mechs." as it always seems to come to. If the game designers want easy cannon fodder enemies I'd prefer they weren't all mechs.

QFT
I didn't found the correct words.

MechWarrior should become more the kind of - light tanks, APC, trollololo...f**** what was this.... a Mech - help me somebody please.

Or for those that are old enough - Mechcommander -2nd Mission

[ice trey]

WolvesX, on 03 February 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

The Mauler is a KURITA mech only? Never thought that!

Crab & King Crab & Black Knight are only produced by Comstar on Terra?

I'm not sure that any of those were being produced by Comstar, so much as being hoarded. Comstar was discreetly collecting every piece of star league tech they could get their hands on and tucking it away. You should also include the Kintaro in that number. The Highlander also falls into that category, but I think it was retconned back into "Limited Production" during the succession wars.

My two cents for the "Absolutely weird to see it elsewhere" mechs from this era... There are other mechs which are more common in some factions than others, but not really belonging to the "What is that doing here" degree, if misplaced. For example, the Jenner is known in the DCMS, but gets around. The Javelin is well known in the AFFS, but has been spread around as well.

Steiner:
Commando
Zeus
Wolfhound

Davion:
Enforcer
Dervish
Valkyrie

FWL:
Hermes II
Trebuchet

Liao:
Vindicator
Raven
Cataphract
Clint?

Kurita:
Panther
Dragon
Mauler
Hatamoto-Chi

(Mechs not in the game yet are italicised)

[Karl Streiger]

One of those Mauler Variants...hm MX90 - the Daboku found its way into the FedCom Army during the war of 39 - reason was a faulty CASE that ejected the pilot after a heavy hit into the torso.

So lot of those Mechs were salvaged undamaged - its no production but a Mauler in the FedCom would not be impossible.

[SuperFunkTron]

This is probably one of the more comprehensive lists you'll find out there. This is taken from the "Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread":

Odanan, on 27 June 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Assignment tables:

Spoiler

MWO IS mechs (year 3039):

Notes:

• The second Draconis Combine column is for Kurita A rated units (they have much more old Star League stuff).
  
• The Mauler in the table is the earlier Dabuku (the Mauler itself is produced only in 3048, but would quickly replace the Dabuku and become a mainstay in DCM).
  
• The Wolfhound variants, by 3039, are basically prototypes. The standard Wolfhound is produced in 3052.
  
• The Black Knight is very rare by 3039, but resumes production in 3052.

Extra IS mechs (strong candidates that can be added any moment):



And the Clans, 3050 (invading force):

Info compiled from here. (thanks to Sennin for the original link).

I've started to do some more work to create a table of which specific variants of each of those mechs shows up in each faction. Its still a few weeks off since I've got limited time, but I can post the clan section sooner if there's enough demand for getting it out quickly.

Edited by SuperFunkTron, 03 February 2017 - 07:19 AM.

[WolvesX]

Could you please explain this table a bit?

I have problems understanding them.

Edited by WolvesX, 03 February 2017 - 07:25 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

The tables show what percentage of each Faction's classes were made up by each mech. I can't attest to the math being correct yet as I'm going through reproducing and expanding on these lists (finding the population of specific variants and adding graphs) and haven't made it to the IS houses yet.

However, I've done quite a bit of work on the Clan charts and my numbers are coming out quite to be the same in terms of chassis percentage of weight class population. So far, I've found that the variants of each chassis is quite variable between the Clans and it is producing some interesting results.

Just to make sure you understand the clan chart, look at the clan wolf population of the Gargoyle. It makes up 47.9% of Clan Wolf's assault mech population. The Dire Wolf makes up 18% of Clan Wolf's assault mech population according to that table. I haven't been able to find charts for the Clans indicating the weight distribution of their force like the IS houses have, but I'll post it if I find it eventually.

[Sigmar Sich]

WolvesX, on 03 February 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

Crab & King Crab & Black Knight are only produced by Comstar on Terra?

Best guide for production is Sarna. For example, you find mech, you click manufacturer, and explore its allegiance, and which models were produced on which planet. Personally for me, it is the ultimate answer for "can i use this mech?" for lore roleplay perspective.
P.S. CRB-20 were gifted to Kurita. And don't forget salvage - there is no possible restriction for mechs, because you can kill a guy who killed a guy who killed a guy in a Crab and took it; and salvage his Crab.

SuperFunkTron, on 03 February 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

This is probably one of the more comprehensive lists you'll find out there. This is taken from the "Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread":

Is it accurate? In BattleTech 35014 - Historical - War of 3039 in RANDOM UNIT ASSIGNMENT TABLE: LYRAN COMMONWEALTH there is probability to roll Victor 4 times (2 9B and 29S), and Zeus 5 times. This is hardly 10 times difference as in posted table. Are my sources so outdated? Or is table based upon 3028-3050 Random Assignment & Rarity Tables 9.1 ? Those are HIGHLY inaccurate, i must warn you. There is even no mention of VTR-9S (unique Steiner model, not available even to Davion); since i used it as example. And because of this we have so warped proportion between ZEU and VTR in LCAF.
I wouldn't trust that tables, and urge you to do the same.

[El Bandito]

TheArisen, on 01 February 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

In the 3060s Davison's poster mech is the Templar and for Steiner it's the Fafnir. I'm not %100 on everyone else.

Hauptmann is better representative ,IMO.