90 replies to this topic

[The Lighthouse]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

Turn all ACs into burst weapons, PPCs into beam weapons.

You may or may not like that, but it solves that problem while also being more accurate to the fluff. Gauss are still PPFLD, but they won't sync well with anything but themselves and they are heavy.

That is a very interesting idea, but then there will be overlap with PPC and long-range laser weapons.

I thought about making PPCs into a splash weapon (I mean, Clan ER PPC is semi-splash weapon), just like how LBX weapons were supposed to work instead of shotguns we have now. You hit one point, then instead of hitting all 10 damage into that one section, it would spread out the damage to the mech.

Of course the damage and projectile speed have to be adjusted so that PPC would not be so useless.... but I think having Gauss as a sole PPFLD would be interesting.

[Bud Crue]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Man this situation is just shjt right now... there's no easy way out.

There's gotta be a way to address the issues raised without broadly nerffing non-meta mechs. I think the trend (if we want to call it a trend) of PGI giving armor instead of structure to particularly bad performing IS mechs, needs to be broadened out to include more mechs and/or even increased in potency (armor AND structure instead of just flipping them for example). But even that will likely be insufficient but I also fear that any negative modifiers would fall into the realm of thinking that Neb identifies above.

PGI seems incapable of being mech specific or even iterative with weapons adjustments (see Uac jam chance pass, see gauss nerf pass, se clan ERLL pass, etc.) and that -to my way of thinking- is largely why we are in the mess we are in. Overwhelming builds...not whole chassis, not whole classes...need to be nerfed with specificity, and PGI seems incapable or unwilling to do that.

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 February 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[Deathlike]

One of the few ways of doing this is literally breaking a few things... like bringing back the Thunderbolt-9S meta (IS ERPPC spam) to a limited series of IS mechs to counteract this... but that's really just a bandaid and it doesn't fix the IS's inability to do PPFLD as effectively as its counterparts (and the "best" IS option happens to be the BJ-3, which isn't even the first choice for most comp teams).

Still, I don't think even PGI understands its own metrics (to any semblance of validity or even context).. so I'm not sure how you'd convince them otherwise (other than forcing potatoes to stop bringing all the terribad mechs and perma-mute them from repeating "they are fine").

There's always just unnerfing a lot of the IS mechs previous to the rescaling honestly.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 February 2017 - 02:45 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The Lighthouse, on 05 February 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

That is a very interesting idea, but then there will be overlap with PPC and long-range laser weapons.

Not if the PPC beam only lasts, like, a quarter of a second. Long enough that you can't really pop-tart or snap-fire with it, but short enough that there is a marked difference between the PPC and the laser. The PPC should also have a longer cool-down, either directly or by throwing in a pre-fire mechanic (i.e. it has to spool up for a fraction of a second before it fires...not the same as charge since the player has zero control over it).

Quote

I thought about making PPCs into a splash weapon (I mean, Clan ER PPC is semi-splash weapon), just like how LBX weapons were supposed to work instead of shotguns we have now. You hit one point, then instead of hitting all 10 damage into that one section, it would spread out the damage to the mech.

Of course the damage and projectile speed have to be adjusted so that PPC would not be so useless.... but I think having Gauss as a sole PPFLD would be interesting.

Might be interesting, but only as long as there's still some emphasis on the impact location. The splash on Clan ER PPCs is actually rather potent, and I'm not sure I would necessarily hate it if the gun was doing 5+5+5 or if my IS PPCs were doing 2.5+5+2.5. I also don't know that it would really fix anything. A pair of cGauss and a cERPPC would still be 35 PPFLD and, honestly, if we don't let PPCs still have PP damage we're just encouraging more dual-Gauss Night Gyr pop-tarting (or KDK-3 poke spam). It kind of just puts the IS into more of a bind than the beam idea does.

[stealthraccoon]

Well since you only care about "mechs that matter"(i.e. 55 tons+) I only have two examples to reference.

Bushwacker - XL280 & 300 have been great. Enough speed to get out of trouble and enough room for sufficient weapons. Armor quirks and hit boxes keep you alive.

Cataphract - XL300 and 320, if you try to face tank you'll die. Use MASC/JJ and good damage rolling to spread damage to those gorilla arms; I really run them like a medium.

I can throw my STD Crabs into some stupid messes, and as long as my legs hold out I can usually limp out of the fray with a few lasers left. XL builds just play different and not all chassis are capable of losing a torso and still be effective (as fun as it is to be a stick with a head laser, it's very difficult to contribute much other than to continue to draw fire).

[Tarogato]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

Not if the PPC beam only lasts, like, a quarter of a second. Long enough that you can't really pop-tart or snap-fire with it, but short enough that there is a marked difference between the PPC and the laser.

I can poptart just fine with 1.0s or longer duration lasers. Certainly shorter than 1.0s is incredibly easy to poptart with.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting to turn cERPPCs into a 15-damage laser with 0.25s duration for 14 heat and reaches out to 810m optimum?

Edited by Tarogato, 05 February 2017 - 03:52 PM.

[Davegt27]

All my war hammer's have STD engines
Its the only IS heavy Mech that can come close to the best Clan heavy Mechs

Edited by Davegt27, 06 February 2017 - 03:10 AM.

[Mystere]

Le sigh! Here we go again. Didn't we just have this same topic recently?

Oh well, if people insists, then here I go again too ...

For the Nth time, who said "balance" must be based solely on a per equipment basis, and worse on a 1:1 basis, instead of having a multidimensional system that considers at least all of the following?

• Mechs
  
• weapons
  
• equipment
  
• forced IS vs. IS, Clan vs. Clan, and IS vs. Clan
  
• maps
  
• numbers
  
• tonnage
  
• game modes
  
• victory conditions
  
• rewards

The above will have the added benefit, in a game that stubbornly insists on billing itself as "A BattleTech Game" no less, of creating the variety and flavor that this so far plain-as-vanilla arena-only game sorely needs.

Or does everyone still stubbornly insist on the current boneheaded course of action being taken, which has failed in the last four years or so?

Oh, and before some smartazz interjects, I sure hope everyone realizes that people can have alts and/or own IS Mechs, right?



Or in MWO's case, by the faction tag they display.

Edited by Mystere, 05 February 2017 - 04:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

I can poptart just fine with 1.0s or longer duration lasers. Certainly shorter than 1.0s is incredibly easy to poptart with.

I don't understand what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting to turn cERPPCs into a 15-damage laser with 0.25s duration for 14 heat and reaches out to 810m optimum?

I am suggesting that all PPCs turn into short-duration beam weapons. Damage mechanics remain untouched, so the cERPPC is still 2.5+10+2.5.

You can pop-tart, but you have to jump a little higher so you have time for the burn to get off. That makes a tremendous difference. With a pre-fire spool-up, you have to rise a little higher still since that adds to the effective duration.

[Carl Vickers]

Davegt27, on 05 February 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

All my war hammer's have STD engines
Its the only IS heavy Mech that can come close to the best Clan heavy heavy Mech

I play warhammers as a staple with Battlemasters in my FW drop decks and to compete with clans you need XL. If you dont have the XL you face losing speed or firepower.

Yes you do go down to ST loss but TBH I find that it isnt as bad as people think. I get reasonable scores with all of my mechs having XL's and im pretty sure most of the best players, if not all of them use the XL cause you need to.

Lore stuff should go out the window in a PVP game to have balance. Fix the IS XL to not die on ST loss just like clans, normalize that and you can start to reduce quirks significantly.

[Tarogato]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

I am suggesting that all PPCs turn into short-duration beam weapons. Damage mechanics remain untouched, so the cERPPC is still 2.5+10+2.5.

You can pop-tart, but you have to jump a little higher so you have time for the burn to get off. That makes a tremendous difference. With a pre-fire spool-up, you have to rise a little higher still since that adds to the effective duration.

So then yes, you're turning PPCs into lasers. Not just lasers, but lasers with short duration and incredible range and damage. That would be overpowered as f***.

Imagine large pulse lasers with less than half the burn duration and more range. Because that's what you're suggesting.

[Davegt27]

Yeah I have nothing to say when the best players card is thrown
Me being a potato and all

[Bud Crue]

Davegt27, on 05 February 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Yeah I have nothing to say when the best players card is thrown
Me being a potato and all

Don't feel bad. I'm a potato too. That being said, Carl is right.

Only standard engine Hammer I can think of that can compete with a Clan at equal weight is an R with 6ML and an AC20 but then you have sacrificed most of your range, and in this day and age of PPFLD Gauss and ERPPC that is a death sentence or at best making the mech niche. So too the std engine D with 3Large instead of 3LPL. Yes it is doable but not on par with a clanner...its still to hot and slow.

Did you have some std engine builds in mind that you think make a more favorable comparison to clan equivalents? If so, I'd love to have em, cuz this potato needs all the help he can get.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

So then yes, you're turning PPCs into lasers. Not just lasers, but lasers with short duration and incredible range and damage. That would be overpowered as f***.

Imagine large pulse lasers with less than half the burn duration and more range. Because that's what you're suggesting.

You are jumping the gun, because that is not what I am suggesting. Nobody said max range, heat, and cool-down would remain where they are. You think it would still be over-powered if it had to deal with the full 10 or 15 heat and had a six second (or longer) cool-down time? If ER PPCs capped their optimums to 690 meters and all PPCs only received a 1.75x multiplier for max-range instead of the 2x that IS lasers get? If there's a spool-up time on the PPC that extends your overall exposure to 0.5 seconds instead of 0.25?

All of those things increase the opportunity for other weapons to retaliate, for 'Mechs to push up on it. Right now, PPCs on pop-tarts provide close to zero opportunity for anything else to retaliate.

The LPL is good because it is fast, cold, and relatively far-reaching. The PPC would only be far-reaching; it would otherwise be the exact opposite.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 February 2017 - 05:15 PM.

[Tarogato]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

You are jumping the gun, because that is not what I am suggesting. Nobody said max range, heat, and cool-down would remain where they are. You think it would still be over-powered if it had to deal with the full 10 or 15 heat and had a six second (or longer) cool-down time? If ER PPCs capped their optimums to 690 meters and all PPCs only received a 1.75x multiplier for max-range instead of the 2x that IS lasers get? If there's a spool-up time on the PPC that extends your overall exposure to 0.5 seconds instead of 0.25?

All of those things increase the opportunity for other weapons to retaliate, for 'Mechs to push up on it. Right now, PPCs on pop-tarts provide close to zero opportunity for anything else to retaliate.

The LPL is good because it is fast, cold, and relatively far-reaching. The PPC would only be far-reaching; it would otherwise be the exact opposite.

So... in other words, changing the PPC to be completely different from any PPC in any MW game in the past. That's a pipe dream if I ever saw one, considering it's PGI we're talking about here.

Also, keep in mind that adding a charge up doesn't nerf a weapon (unless you add it to the recycle rate without correcting for it), it just raises the skill cap above what some potatoes have the patience for. It doesn't actually bother the people who will abuse a weapon if it has good stats (see: cGauss).

But I don't think you have any idea how overpowered it would be to have a hitscan laser with 810 optimum that deals 10 damage in 0.25 seconds. That is outrageously overpowered in almost every scenario.




Just to be clear, is this what you're suggesting?

- change PPCs into hitscan lasers
- 10 damage (cERPPC deals an extra 2x 2.5 splash)
- same heat as before
- 6.0s cooldown
- 0.25s burn duration
- 0.50s charge up time


- PPC (540 - 945m)
- ERPPC (810 - 1418m)
- cERPPC (810 - 1418m)


- pinpoint max DPS (burst DPS) is nerfed from 2.50 to 1.48 (decreased by 40%)
- sustained DPS stays the same, usually, depending on build (heatsinks, heat quirks)



Unless you have 21 heatsinks or more, you aren't even be able to fire a single pair of ERPPCs every 6.75 seconds (which is the recycle rate you proposed), so nerfing the cooldown from 4.0 seconds to 6.0 seconds like you did won't affect its sustained ranged damage output at all. Also, keep in mind that when it's paired with gauss, the fastest it can be fired now is every 5.75 seconds, and in reality it's rarely fired every time it's off cooldown. So really, the only thing that you've changed about it is that it's now is that it's a hitscan laser for 10 pinpoint damage with 0.25s burn duration at 810 meters optimum. That's absolutely crazy. And the only weakness is burst DPS, which would only be exploited in competitive league play when a brawl team rushes a PPC team?

If you make the duration any longer to fix this, than it becomes even more like a laser. At that point, you've accomplished nothing more then reducing diversity. PPCs have always been energy projectiles in the games, I don't know why you'd bother to change that now. It's their ballistic property that makes them different, fun, and challenging to use.

---

If I were in charge, the first thing I'd do is adjust jumpjets. Make it so that reticule shake (inaccuracy) persists longer after the jets are released, so that you must be in the air longer (and exposed to the enemy for longer) to get a shot off. Also, this creates a balancing mechanic that allows jumpjets to be buffed in terms of thrust or raw jump height. So you both make them more fun to use, but harder to poptart with. So that nerfs the following meta poptarts: HBK-IIC-A, NVA, SMN, TBR, NTG. Which pretty much only leaves the KDK-3 that needs dedicated nerfs. Incidental casualties (like the VND, BJ-3, PNT) can get their own buffs to make up for this jumpjet change.

Edited by Tarogato, 05 February 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Mystere]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

If I were in charge, the first thing I'd do is adjust jumpjets. Make it so that reticule shake (inaccuracy) persists longer after the jets are released, so that you must be in the air longer (and exposed to the enemy for longer) to get a shot off. Also, this creates a balancing mechanic that allows jumpjets to be buffed in terms of thrust or raw jump height. So you both make them more fun to use, but harder to poptart with. So that nerfs the following meta poptarts: HBK-IIC-A, NVA, SMN, TBR, NTG. Which pretty much only leaves the KDK-3 that needs dedicated nerfs. Incidental casualties (like the VND, BJ-3, PNT) can get their own buffs to make up for this jumpjet change.

Instead of making poptarts less viable by directly nerfing the playstyle, I'd rather add a lot more maps with taller structures. By doing the latter we actually end up adding more flavor and variety, not reducing the further.

Also, why not just directly fix the real problem once and for all -- automatic near-instant pixel-perfect convergence. Use CoF, use several of the available convergence-based solutions, whatever. And no, these do not "remove skill" as some people are so fond of insisting. That's nothing but an #AlternativeFact.

Edited by Mystere, 05 February 2017 - 07:47 PM.

[Scout Derek]

the only mechs that I've tried that have no trouble is the shadowhawk and the Griffin. those two for 55 tonners really work well with XLs.

[Y E O N N E]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

So... in other words, changing the PPC to be completely different from any PPC in any MW game in the past. That's a pipe dream if I ever saw one, considering it's PGI we're talking about here.

It is, but so is you asking for some way to nerf the strongest builds in the game without nerfing everybody else in the process, for the exact same reason. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

Also, every other MW game (a miserable bar to measure against at any rate) has been wrong. PPCs are not blue fuzzballs. They cannot be blue fuzzballs, they'd deal zero damage. BT actually got the physics right: they are beam weapons. Every single piece of artwork I've ever seen, official or otherwise, displays them as such and the description says so itself.


Rest in spoiler so I don't break peoples' eyes.

Spoiler

Quote

Also, keep in mind that adding a charge up doesn't nerf a weapon (unless you add it to the recycle rate without correcting for it), it just raises the skill cap above what some potatoes have the patience for. It doesn't actually bother the people who will abuse a weapon if it has good stats (see: cGauss).

It's not a charge you can control. You pull the trigger once and then you have to finagle with whatever else you want to fire before the time is up. That said, I will say that the spool-up is mostly for awesome factor and not for balance purposes. I don't mind it resulting in nothing more than a higher skill floor, that's fine. It's a high reward weapon, it should have a high skill floor.

Quote

But I don't think you have any idea how overpowered it would be to have a hitscan laser with 810 optimum that deals 10 damage in 0.25 seconds. That is outrageously overpowered in almost every scenario.

Did I not say 690 meters?

Quote

Just to be clear, is this what you're suggesting?

- change PPCs into hitscan lasers
- 10 damage (cERPPC deals an extra 2x 2.5 splash)
- same heat as before
- 6.0s cooldown
- 0.25s burn duration
- 0.50s charge up time


- PPC (540 - 945m)
- ERPPC (810 - 1418m)
- cERPPC (810 - 1418m)

- pinpoint max DPS (burst DPS) is nerfed from 2.50 to 1.48 (decreased by 40%)
- sustained DPS stays the same, usually, depending on build (heatsinks, heat quirks)

No.

You are still jumping the gun. I haven't sat down to work out the exact numbers (maybe we need a longer cool-down, maybe the duration should be slightly longer), I was just throwing numbers I thought would be outrageous (6s cool-down was and sometimes still is considered outrageous on the Gauss). Maybe it should be 8 seconds...that's not not unprecedented in MechWarrior. Maybe it needs to be 10 seconds. Maybe more.

There is no issue with the concept, but there are myriad issues with the specific implementation...which I never said was finalized. You are trying to compel me to argue in support of off-the-cuff numbers, which I will not do.

Quote

Unless you have 21 heatsinks or more, you aren't even be able to fire a single pair of ERPPCs every 6.75 seconds (which is the recycle rate you proposed), so nerfing the cooldown from 4.0 seconds to 6.0 seconds like you did won't affect its sustained ranged damage output at all. Also, keep in mind that when it's paired with gauss, the fastest it can be fired now is every 5.75 seconds, and in reality it's rarely fired every time it's off cooldown. So really, the only thing that you've changed about it is that it's now is that it's a hitscan laser for 10 pinpoint damage with 0.25s burn duration at 810 meters optimum. That's absolutely crazy. And the only weakness is burst DPS, which would only be exploited in competitive league play when a brawl team rushes a PPC team?

You dramatically underestimate the gravity of having to stay exposed for at least 0.25 seconds. That 0.25 seconds made the cERLL go from god-tier to ****-tier. 0.25 seconds is what murdered the BJ-1X. 0.25 seconds is the difference between a pop-tarting Summoner with Loyalty pods versus one without. Hell, a shorter 0.15 second nerf murdered the isERLL, too.

I mean, really, have you ever counted it out? 0.25 seconds is a fairly long interval. I can spread some of the damage during that. Not a whole lot, but enough to reduce the total impact on one section for 'Mechs with smaller profiles. That is fairly significant.

And since 'Mechs are slow, even when considered fast, it means getting lit up way more than the current insta-pop PPCs allow. It means when you expose to fire, the ERLL+Gauss builds are going to do just as much damage in return, with about the same on one component and the rest can be considered equivalent splash.

Really, what these short-beam, long cycle PPCs do is require a greater usage of lasers to provide sufficient DPS at extreme to long range. The PPCs come into their own as tools for lighter 'Mechs that can't compete on DPS anyway to combat the heavier ones using single-shot burst and agility. Y'know, actually giving lighter 'Mechs a combat niche that can't be done better by heavier ones, something people have been clamoring for since forever, including and especially Leagues.

None of this exists in a vacuum though. There are other weapons which need adjusting, too. It's pointless to debate just the PPC as if it is the only thing that needs changing.

Quote

If you make the duration any longer to fix this, than it becomes even more like a laser. At that point, you've accomplished nothing more then reducing diversity. PPCs have always been energy projectiles in the games, I don't know why you'd bother to change that now. It's their ballistic property that makes them different, fun, and challenging to use.

Why not change it? Why should it stay the way it is and has been?

The PPC we have now is an energy AC/10 that weighs a little over half as much, is less than half the size, has 26-37% better projectile speed, and runs cold enough when used in pairs that I don't give a damn about its heat efficiency. I don't call that diversity, I call that redundancy. And this is even true in TT.

If you really gave a damn about making the weapon something special, then it should be a charging beam weapon dealing less pin-point damage and more splash damage while shorting out equipment including the HUD, BAP, AMS, and ECM. With a long cool-down. Firing a PPC should be an event, and so should getting hit by one, since they are held with such awe in the fluff.

You want an energy AC/10? Then lobby for the Plasma Rifle in MWO, because that's essentially what it is and it's a better one than the PPC since its special effect is a hell of a lot more interesting and meaningful than the PPC's.

Quote

If I were in charge, the first thing I'd do is adjust jumpjets. Make it so that reticule shake (inaccuracy) persists longer after the jets are released, so that you must be in the air longer (and exposed to the enemy for longer) to get a shot off. Also, this creates a balancing mechanic that allows jumpjets to be buffed in terms of thrust or raw jump height. So you both make them more fun to use, but harder to poptart with. So that nerfs the following meta poptarts: HBK-IIC-A, NVA, SMN, TBR, NTG. Which pretty much only leaves the KDK-3 that needs dedicated nerfs. Incidental casualties (like the VND, BJ-3, PNT) can get their own buffs to make up for this jumpjet change.

I have suggested that multiple times in other threads. You have to scale it for mass or you nerf certain Lights and Mediums extremely hard, namely the Mist Lynx, Panther, and Shadowcat.

And, as you said, it doesn't to diddly to the KDK-3. PPC beams and longer cycle, however, do. Organically. Unlike quirks.

Unless you want a more radical idea like managing reactor output. There's some proper sim stuff right there. Fire lots of high-energy weapons, suffer longer cool-down since you ain't got the juice to recharge all of them at optimal rates. Want lots of DPS? Bring a mix of weapons, some high energy, some no energy. I should've kept that spreadsheet...

[Tarogato]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Spoiler

It is, but so is you asking for some way to nerf the strongest builds in the game without nerfing everybody else in the process, for the exact same reason. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

Also, every other MW game (a miserable bar to measure against at any rate) has been wrong. PPCs are not blue fuzzballs. They cannot be blue fuzzballs, they'd deal zero damage. BT actually got the physics right: they are beam weapons. Every single piece of artwork I've ever seen, official or otherwise, displays them as such and the description says so itself.


Rest in spoiler so I don't break peoples' eyes.

Spoiler

It's not a charge you can control. You pull the trigger once and then you have to finagle with whatever else you want to fire before the time is up. That said, I will say that the spool-up is mostly for awesome factor and not for balance purposes. I don't mind it resulting in nothing more than a higher skill floor, that's fine. It's a high reward weapon, it should have a high skill floor.



Did I not say 690 meters?



No.

You are still jumping the gun. I haven't sat down to work out the exact numbers (maybe we need a longer cool-down, maybe the duration should be slightly longer), I was just throwing numbers I thought would be outrageous (6s cool-down was and sometimes still is considered outrageous on the Gauss). Maybe it should be 8 seconds...that's not not unprecedented in MechWarrior. Maybe it needs to be 10 seconds. Maybe more.

There is no issue with the concept, but there are myriad issues with the specific implementation...which I never said was finalized. You are trying to compel me to argue in support of off-the-cuff numbers, which I will not do.



You dramatically underestimate the gravity of having to stay exposed for at least 0.25 seconds. That 0.25 seconds made the cERLL go from god-tier to ****-tier. 0.25 seconds is what murdered the BJ-1X. 0.25 seconds is the difference between a pop-tarting Summoner with Loyalty pods versus one without. Hell, a shorter 0.15 second nerf murdered the isERLL, too.

I mean, really, have you ever counted it out? 0.25 seconds is a fairly long interval. I can spread some of the damage during that. Not a whole lot, but enough to reduce the total impact on one section for 'Mechs with smaller profiles. That is fairly significant.

And since 'Mechs are slow, even when considered fast, it means getting lit up way more than the current insta-pop PPCs allow. It means when you expose to fire, the ERLL+Gauss builds are going to do just as much damage in return, with about the same on one component and the rest can be considered equivalent splash.

Really, what these short-beam, long cycle PPCs do is require a greater usage of lasers to provide sufficient DPS at extreme to long range. The PPCs come into their own as tools for lighter 'Mechs that can't compete on DPS anyway to combat the heavier ones using single-shot burst and agility. Y'know, actually giving lighter 'Mechs a combat niche that can't be done better by heavier ones, something people have been clamoring for since forever, including and especially Leagues.

None of this exists in a vacuum though. There are other weapons which need adjusting, too. It's pointless to debate just the PPC as if it is the only thing that needs changing.



Why not change it? Why should it stay the way it is and has been?

The PPC we have now is an energy AC/10 that weighs a little over half as much, is less than half the size, has 26-37% better projectile speed, and runs cold enough when used in pairs that I don't give a damn about its heat efficiency. I don't call that diversity, I call that redundancy. And this is even true in TT.

If you really gave a damn about making the weapon something special, then it should be a charging beam weapon dealing less pin-point damage and more splash damage while shorting out equipment including the HUD, BAP, AMS, and ECM. With a long cool-down. Firing a PPC should be an event, and so should getting hit by one, since they are held with such awe in the fluff.

You want an energy AC/10? Then lobby for the Plasma Rifle in MWO, because that's essentially what it is and it's a better one than the PPC since its special effect is a hell of a lot more interesting and meaningful than the PPC's.



I have suggested that multiple times in other threads. You have to scale it for mass or you nerf certain Lights and Mediums extremely hard, namely the Mist Lynx, Panther, and Shadowcat.

And, as you said, it doesn't to diddly to the KDK-3. PPC beams and longer cycle, however, do. Organically. Unlike quirks.

Unless you want a more radical idea like managing reactor output. There's some proper sim stuff right there. Fire lots of high-energy weapons, suffer longer cool-down since you ain't got the juice to recharge all of them at optimal rates. Want lots of DPS? Bring a mix of weapons, some high energy, some no energy. I should've kept that spreadsheet...

And so if you change PPCs to a hitscan laser, and balance them so that they are unique and different from other lasers (ideally by being short duration), then what have you accomplished in terms of actual meta balance?

Nothing. If you can poptart with a 0.67s duration large pulse (which you can), then you can poptart even better with a PPC that has a burn duration of 0.50s or less. You may have made PPCs no longer PPFLD, which sounds like a nerf, but you also made them incredibly short duration long range hitscan, which is very strong.

If you finagle all the numbers so that it comes out as a net nerf to PPCs and they perform worse than they did before, then why go through all the bother of changing the mechanics of it? Leave the PPC as it is now and just nerf it. Same difference. It still has the effect of nerfing the mechs that benefit by having good hardpoints... and also nerfing the bad mechs with bad hardpoints. You'd still have to counteract the nerf by buffing those chronic underperformers like the Vindicator and Awesome that didn't deserve nerfs in the first place. So I really don't see the need to go through all the effort of completely changing how the weapon works and also risk making it either overpowered or completely junk in the process of re-imagining it.


To be clear, if you wanted to change how PPCs worked with the basis of your argument being "to better reflect lore" then I would get behind it. But if the catalyst for changing PPCs is "because they need to be nerfed", then I can't support the notion - it's a bit of a non-sequitur, imo.

Edited by Tarogato, 05 February 2017 - 09:34 PM.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Calling blatent BS on this one OP.

Just seen a warhammer do 1200 damage and 3 kills on a 12-9 loss last night, truely a great performance. He was clearly running an XL but made some very sound positioning choices. Took lots of nasty hits but at worst he had a red cored shoulder (at the end of the game). He was running at 80kph exactly so I don't know if that helps describe which engine he used. He died from getting Direwolfed in the chest (there was another dire wolf alive and something else nasty).

I've seen Warhammers still pump out very solid scores, as for the black knights, I rarely see them. I dont have that range so I cannot comment but I really enjoyed using the Warhammers, I just never slapped XL's in them (except the ballistic one). My rule is, if it's suppose to be a fast mech, then slap an XL else STD always (unless your build requires it). The problem is that people are expecting to load out the classic 3 blues and the rest greens, that's a lot of firepower and tonnage. Something's gotta trade, either firepower or speed/durability.

The main problem I see, is that the IS XL is just too much of a silly trade out, punish the player but do it in a different way or something e.g. run at legged speed. This normally gets people killed anyways but at least that mech has a chance for a last stand.

Also I dont get this new term for pin point front loaded damage either, if it's not on the front where else would it be?!
Are we talking about high alpha's? Only pinpoint front loaded damage I can think of is dual guass and a PPC?, that's 40 damage (but ok thats nasty) but I aint seeing many players fitting this out.

I feel these strengthening quirks were abused, I remember in CW there was nothing to stop a flood of tanks coming in. Each match was the same mechs, loss after loss but that's seeing it from a clanners side. Right now it seems lopsided the other way so it's still not balanced. Asides fixing the IS XL, it only leaves strengthening the IS heavies back up (but not as much as before), but that just doesn't feel right.