90 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

I call complete BS on the OP message ... meta Battlemasters and Warhammers are running big XLs since forever and have zero issues in terms of survivability compared to clan counterparts such as Timber and Warhawk etc. Needless to say they are top tier mechs. BlackKnights and Grasshoppers used to do the same and were top tier mechs before they got upscaled to skyscrapers. It was never an issue with using XL engine, but always an issue of how you were using it. If you are dieing due to the loss of a single component while having armor everywhere else then you are doing it wrong. Even something as big as a Cyclops runs XL engine perfectly fine and doesn't die to a ST loss exactly because it has a huge XL engine and torso twists like a boss.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 06 February 2017 - 01:04 AM.

[Davegt27]

I Agee with the OP but I am seeing it on my Jagers
That is XL mechs going real quick

The reason seem to be the dual gauss night gyr
So watch out for the dual gauss stare

[Duke Nedo]

The Unstoppable Puggernaut, on 06 February 2017 - 12:01 AM, said:

Calling blatent BS on this one OP....

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2017 - 01:02 AM, said:

I call complete BS on the OP message ...

You both make the same false argument. Nobody is saying that you can't get good scores in any **** mech out there, the point is that you do it better/more reliably in clan mechs of the same-ish weight, especially against good players (i.e. PPFLD players that can aim and know where to aim).

[Oberost]

Duke Nedo, on 06 February 2017 - 03:55 AM, said:

You both make the same false argument. Nobody is saying that you can't get good scores in any **** mech out there, the point is that you do it better/more reliably in clan mechs of the same-ish weight, especially against good players (i.e. PPFLD players that can aim and know where to aim).

This^^

In fact, the thread title says "Personal experience", so the OP is not saying that you can't do well in IS XL mechs, he's just stating what he feels and his experience while he play with such mechs.

And he's right.

[lazytopaz]

1. Warhammer nerfs to structure were like -4 or -7 so those are not huge significant numbers.
2. My experience with Warhammers - Torso twist ftw, and bcs of that you need to remember you are not fronline, at best you are 2nd line fire support/corner/hill poker and if you are playing it right you are one of the few ppl left alive with 4+ kills - not so seldomly last man standing with one of the torsos shot off.
3. WHM-6D can run laservomit with STD + reasonable ammount of DHS's at 74 kph.
4. WHM-BW being run with 2xuac5 + 2xac5... only with XL if you reaally need to dakka. But let's be frank here - PPC+Gauss runs this game nowadays. so you'll probably wanna switch it to something like 2xppc + 2xuac5/2xac5 and then you can run it with STD.
5. Warhammers with STD's are tanky as f#%k. So sing with me :

"Let's twist again, like we did last summer
Yeah, let's twist again, like we did last year"

apart from that pepsi and gauss ftw (oy vey how I wish the old frozen city was back - btw I hate the fact that this game turned into sniper fest shootouts)... but don't be shocked when brawlers flank you and you cannot do nothing about it with your ultra hot pepsis (get that seismic wallhack while you can )

apart from that - I run XL's on any mech below Heavies - mediums and lights. There you need the speed more than anything else. Speed is life, speed will save you there, speed will enable you to get where you will be needed most.
One of my mates runs his CN9-D with LBx10 + 2ML's and biggest possible XL engine it can fit (ofc with additional 3-4 tons of ammo and maybe some DHS's) and he's sporting a speed like 100++ kph.. constantly pumping 600+ dmg in it. He's literally everywhere he's needed due to the speed.
But you need to learn your place with specific mech on battlefield.
Just like every other mech out there - has specific role that he excels at/works best at.
But you already know that.

off the topic : I wished when I'm in mid air and I start to use jump jets while facing different direction than I'm currently flying towards -> I would start to change the direction of my flight. Too OP? I find it really curious why it's not that way since we're trying here to be a combat mech simulator...so laws of physics should be better emulated...eh?

Edited by lazytopaz, 06 February 2017 - 04:29 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Duke Nedo, on 06 February 2017 - 03:55 AM, said:

You both make the same false argument. Nobody is saying that you can't get good scores in any **** mech out there, the point is that you do it better/more reliably in clan mechs of the same-ish weight, especially against good players (i.e. PPFLD players that can aim and know where to aim).

"Meta" mechs are determined by relatively high-skilled people playing in relatively high-skilled environment, i.e. vs equally "good" players. And just as I've pointed out, there were and still are plenty of examples of meta IS heavies running big XLs.

[PFC Carsten]

If PPFLD is the problem for isXL, then upping the engine crits to 4 is the easiest and IMHO most fair solution. Far less fuckup-potential than messing with all those quirks once more.


btw: How can you roll PPFLD with torso twisting? Just a curious potato question. At max, i've been able to shift it to another torso when the guy aiming at me was even more potato than me.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 06 February 2017 - 04:43 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2017 - 04:16 AM, said:

"Meta" mechs are determined by relatively high-skilled people playing in relatively high-skilled environment, i.e. vs equally "good" players. And just as I've pointed out, there were and still are plenty of examples of meta IS heavies running big XLs.

No.. there may be a few IS mechs that are still considered "meta" but none of them are the best meta mechs. A WHM does have durability issues when compared to a TBR. The BNC does have durability issues when compared to the KDK-3. The BLR does have durability issues when compared to the MAD-IIC. You could say that for any class and any build.

Also, you can't torso-twist to spread the damage of a gauss+ppc, there's not enough time. The best way to spread incoming PPFLD is to have transverse speed (which is not always possible), then even dual gauss often hit different locations because there's no correct convergence when the shooter has to lead the shots... This is even more pronounced for weapons with difference velocity, so transversal is the key... but like I said, that's much more situational than twisting and against good players you are very likely to take the full brunt in your ST.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 06 February 2017 - 04:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

PFC Carsten, on 06 February 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

If PPFLD is the problem for isXL, then upping the engine crits to 4 is the easiest and IMHO most fair solution. Far less fuckup-potential than messing with all those quirks once more.


btw: How can you roll PPFLD with torso twisting? Just a curious potato question. At max, i've been able to shift it to another torso when the guy aiming at me was even more potato than me.

Since MWO doesn't use that rule, nothing changes
But if you mean "sidestodie" changes from 1 to 2, that'd be acceptable


As for rolling PP FLD, moving laterally and preventative torso twisting as the best courses of action. Gauss and PPCs have different velocities, and at range will spread with movement alone, but paired weapons of the same type may also be spread between moving and range, due to mount position. Many exceptions (H2C, BJ3) which have them so close together, but it's less than Dual Gauss.

[Besh]

Duke Nedo, on 06 February 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

No.. there may be a few IS mechs that are still considered "meta" but none of them are the best meta mechs. A WHM does have durability issues when compared to a TBR. The BNC does have durability issues when compared to the KDK-3. The BLR does have durability issues when compared to the MAD-IIC. You could say that for any class and any build.

Also, you can't torso-twist to spread the damage of a gauss+ppc, there's not enough time. The best way to spread incoming PPFLD is to have transverse speed (which is not always possible), then even dual gauss often hit different locations because there's no correct convergence when the shooter has to lead the shots... This is even more pronounced for weapons with difference velocity, so transversal is the key... but like I said, that's much more situational than twisting and against good players you are very likely to take the full brunt in your ST.

Am just glad someone re-mentioned ( after OP ) the PPFLD/dmg spread Problem . Which seems to elude many people saying IS XL being all fine and dandy .

Also pretty much seems to be a discussion from too many different perspectives . Ofc it is possible to put out awesome performances in XL IS 'Mechs, esp. in varying Gamemodes on varying Maps, and various lvls of competition. But the following generally holds true for IS XL 'Mechs : the better the competition, the faster you will die - to very few, VERY WELL aimed shots . To one of your STs .

Edited by Besh, 06 February 2017 - 08:52 AM.

[The Lighthouse]

Besh, on 06 February 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Am just glad someone re-mentioned ( after OP ) the PPFLD/dmg spread Problem . Which seems to elude many people saying IS XL being all fine and dandy .

Also pretty much seems to be a discussion from too many different perspectives . Ofc it is possible to put out awesome performances in XL IS 'Mechs, esp. in varying Gamemodes on varying Maps, and various lvls of competition. But the following generally holds true for IS XL 'Mechs : the better the competition, the faster you will die - to very few, VERY WELL aimed shots . To one of your STs .

Best way to know is what mechs were used in various tournaments. So, the last year where we used very old client that was even older than pre re-scale of the mechs...




People keep saying IS mechs and stuffs are fine and dandy, but all I saw from those terrible stream video were Kodiaks, Kodiaks AND more Kodiaks basically (and not even just Kodiaks in general, just one model. You guys know what the model is ) for heavier mechs.

Be honest to yourselves. If PGI holds a tourney now with reasonable prices, and you are going to participate, you are not going to use anything other than Clan mechs (unless you are a light mech player or some cases medium.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarogato, on 05 February 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

Also, keep in mind that adding a charge up doesn't nerf a weapon (unless you add it to the recycle rate without correcting for it), it just raises the skill cap above what some potatoes have the patience for.

I'm going to point this out real quick even though I'm late to the party, adding charge-up does limit a weapons usefulness regardless of how good you are at charge-ups. There is a reason the Night Gyr fails at being able to deal with the pre-nerf poptart Summoner and really a good HBK-IIC-A. That Gauss charge-up really hampers its ability to deal with other poptarts (which is why mixing PPCs and dakka works better for anti-poptart shenanigans).

As to the topic of making the PPC a longer ranged LPL with charge-up, honestly I'm ok with it since it makes energy weapons consistently different. As for how to balance PPCs against Pulse which are supposed to be the "accurate" weapons, well honestly you could make them or standard lasers more DPS oriented (like dakka lasers or like the continuous beam laser from MP3x) that way there is more contrast between lasers and PPCs (besides the charge-up). Basically you want PPCs to be to lasers like Gauss is to ACs. Sure you will still be able to poptart, but it disallows the ability to make snapshots if it has a charge up which is a pretty big change.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[Tarogato]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'm going to point this out real quick even though I'm late to the party, adding charge-up does limit a weapons usefulness regardless of how good you are at charge-ups. There is a reason the Night Gyr fails at being able to deal with the pre-nerf poptart Summoner and really a good HBK-IIC-A. That Gauss charge-up really hampers its ability to deal with other poptarts (which is why mixing PPCs and dakka works better for anti-poptart shenanigans).

I didn't think of that. So adding a charge mechanic to PPCs would actually make poptarting even stronger. Because if you're poptarting, you're pre-charging anyways. But if you're trying to shoot at a poptart, you have to charge reactively. Making another weapon (PPCs) also require a charge will subtract from the available weapons that can counter poptarts. =/

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarogato, on 06 February 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Making another weapon (PPCs) also require a charge will subtract from the available weapons that can counter poptarts. =/

Good poptarts don't really have a counter now unless the mech has super velocity buffs or can abuse lasers. That said the duration of a laser does hamper PPC poptarts like the HBK-IIC-A and nipple Summoner because that duration requires a little more facetime than they would otherwise, sure you may be able to pre-charge but that still doesn't help with the fact you need more time above terrain to deal full damage which is really the problem, the amount of time spent out of cover for JJ mechs is too short and are typically much harder to time because of how much cover they can hide behind compared to poking mechs which you can generally get a bit more warning visually.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I'm going to point this out real quick even though I'm late to the party, adding charge-up does limit a weapons usefulness regardless of how good you are at charge-ups. There is a reason the Night Gyr fails at being able to deal with the pre-nerf poptart Summoner and really a good HBK-IIC-A. That Gauss charge-up really hampers its ability to deal with other poptarts (which is why mixing PPCs and dakka works better for anti-poptart shenanigans).

As to the topic of making the PPC a longer ranged LPL with charge-up, honestly I'm ok with it since it makes energy weapons consistently different. As for how to balance PPCs against Pulse which are supposed to be the "accurate" weapons, well honestly you could make them or standard lasers more DPS oriented (like dakka lasers or like the continuous beam laser from MP3x) that way there is more contrast between lasers and PPCs (besides the charge-up). Basically you want PPCs to be to lasers like Gauss is to ACs. Sure you will still be able to poptart, but it disallows the ability to make snapshots if it has a charge up which is a pretty big change.

I'd put a twist on it with PPCs on not having the damage consistent. Give it a 0.6 burn time but give it only 1 pt for the first 5 tics and then 5 points on the 6th. Clan ERPPC would be 0.8 with 1.4 for the first 7 tics and 5 pts on the 8th or something similar. No splash damage, just a slightly longer burn.

How a PPC should work anyway - a laser ionizes a trail between you and the target, ionizes the surface you want to hit, then the charged pulse is sent down the line.

I'm not a fan of chargeups. I do fine with gauss and I get why it needs one but I'd like to avoid it on PPCs. Even if PPC burn time goes to 1 second (I'd argue that LPLs need to be a tad longer, assuming there's a better overall IS vs Clan balance involved) you have it weak at first and a pulse of damage at the end.

Keeps it distinct.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 06 February 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

Keeps it distinct.

Not enough to matter really, not to mention it puts it in direct competition with a large laser that way (iLL vs iPPC, ERLL vs ERPPC) whereas the charge up allows for a bit better distinction of role (charge-up/more accurate vs snapshot ability/longer duration).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Not enough to matter really, not to mention it puts it in direct competition with a large laser that way (iLL vs iPPC, ERLL vs ERPPC) whereas the charge up allows for a bit better distinction of role (charge-up/more accurate vs snapshot ability/longer duration).

I'd be happy with either but the charge-up is going to make even more drama. So does the charge-up sync exactly with gauss? If so then doesn't it eliminate most the point of the charge-up? If it doesn't sync with gauss, dear god what a cluster that would be to try and use.

GIve it 0.5 second burn time with most the damage loaded at the end, slightly longer burn for Clans but no splash.

When you have 2 PPFLD weapons both with a chargeup you're creating a whole new dynamic for things to either go terribly wrong or functionally require autohotkey to use effectively. Both give me a twitch given PGIs history with weapon balance decisions.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think the issue of IS XL heavies being less viable has less to do with PPFLD and more to do with the fact that all of those heavies were nerfed. Do you think that might be possible?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 06 February 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

So does the charge-up sync exactly with gauss? If so then doesn't it eliminate most the point of the charge-up? If it doesn't sync with gauss, dear god what a cluster that would be to try and use.

Part of me says it should sync up with Gauss in some fashion (light gauss and ERPPC should sync up as well) that way you can have a choice between PPCs or LLs to combine with Gauss.

Gas Guzzler, on 06 February 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

I think the issue of IS XL heavies being less viable has less to do with PPFLD and more to do with the fact that all of those heavies were nerfed. Do you think that might be possible?

It is just a bit more noticeable with PPFLD.

[Trollfeed]

I feel so dirty when I pug with my dual gauss+ERPPC night gyr. Especially because my priority targets are IS mediums with XL because they will die from one shot to back or two shots from front. IS heavies with XL don't last much longer.