83 replies to this topic

[B L O O D W I T C H]

PFC Carsten, on 05 February 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Totally. So one queue for the elite-elitist 12 premades and a solo queue for the solos and all those not "gud nuff" to get into one of the elite 12 premades.

Already had that.
Premades started crying because they couidn't farm pugs and had to actually put some work into FP to earn c-billls.
Appearently, the pugqueue wasn't filled enough to substain maintance (i've played said said unitless pug queue at that time, always full, matches never took longer then 2-3 minutes to form).
Also, besides 12 vs 12 most fun an balanced games in FP i've ever had.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 05 February 2017 - 03:12 PM.

[Jack Booted Thug]

naterist, on 05 February 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

this would work very well as a replacement for my idea about giving you money for your mech not killed. the reason i say give the pugs that monetary bonus mainly is because ive seen people justify bypassing the objective as giving the stompees a chance to make money off the game. but making it the other way areound works too.

the reason the "pive pugs a chance at more cbills" thing doesnt work is because if they are so bad that theyre getting rolled into their spawns, they probably arent experienced enough to see it that way. i didnt even think of it that way until i hear count zero explain the thinking to me, so they probably arent seeing it that way either. but giving it to the rolling team makes more sense, gives them more incentive not to do it.



thats what im trying to get a plan for stopping mainly.

What would get me to play this game that doesn't involve me shooting enemy players?

I don't have an answer. I guess I would stop playing.

[naterist]

Jack Booted Thug, on 05 February 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

What would get me to play this game that doesn't involve me shooting enemy players?

I don't have an answer. I guess I would stop playing.

the point isnt to not kill enemies. its to make the objective something people are interested in taking more then massacring. the fighting comes from both sides trying to take the objective simultaneously, which is what war is, and fp is supposed to simulate a war. instead of viewing each round as 48 mech deathamtch, with side things to do, lets make it about objectives. one reason i love conquest so much is that its a lot of fun to take a light and strategically traverse the map, all sneaky like, and get caps. thats a lot of fun. it also takes a lot of coordination and planning. if im going for the enemies side caps i need my heavies making noise at theta or the middle so i can sneak by, and if you dont think that takes coordination, think again.

killing mechs is great, but adding objectives will make things insanely better. i cant wait for incursion. there will finally be more roles for harrassing mediums and light strike teams and stuff other then 8 heavies and some mediums duking it out at range, like we get more often then id like. that gets old, and doesnt simulate anything. i can snipe in the newest CoD if i wanted that. i want some variance in strategies and modes, and i want the modes to be emphasized more and more because thats really been a draw for newer people and its a nice breathe of fresh air. if anything is to be taken out of 4.1 its that objectives are fun and need to be rewarded and focused more. hopefully we can get objectives that effect gameplay more and matter more then the kills and damage count.

maybe we need to start highlighting match score more in the post game screen, and making that affect c-bills more than damage, and highlight it more in the post match screen to help people understand what theyre getting the extra cbills for.
we already know damage isnt what makes a great player, so lets try and emphasize and reward objective based playing more.

tl;dr: objectives are fun. reward us a lot for doing them. side bonus, we can do it in a way that draws units toward playing objectives, over curbstamping infants, on the occassion they run into each other.

[Jack Booted Thug]

naterist, on 05 February 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

the point isnt to not kill enemies. its to make the objective something people are interested in taking more then massacring. the fighting comes from both sides trying to take the objective simultaneously, which is what war is, and fp is supposed to simulate a war. instead of viewing each round as 48 mech deathamtch, with side things to do, lets make it about objectives. one reason i love conquest so much is that its a lot of fun to take a light and strategically traverse the map, all sneaky like, and get caps. thats a lot of fun. it also takes a lot of coordination and planning. if im going for the enemies side caps i need my heavies making noise at theta or the middle so i can sneak by, and if you dont think that takes coordination, think again.

killing mechs is great, but adding objectives will make things insanely better. i cant wait for incursion. there will finally be more roles for harrassing mediums and light strike teams and stuff other then 8 heavies and some mediums duking it out at range, like we get more often then id like. that gets old, and doesnt simulate anything. i can snipe in the newest CoD if i wanted that. i want some variance in strategies and modes, and i want the modes to be emphasized more and more because thats really been a draw for newer people and its a nice breathe of fresh air. if anything is to be taken out of 4.1 its that objectives are fun and need to be rewarded and focused more. hopefully we can get objectives that effect gameplay more and matter more then the kills and damage count.

maybe we need to start highlighting match score more in the post game screen, and making that affect c-bills more than damage, and highlight it more in the post match screen to help people understand what theyre getting the extra cbills for.
we already know damage isnt what makes a great player, so lets try and emphasize and reward objective based playing more.

tl;dr: objectives are fun. reward us a lot for doing them. side bonus, we can do it in a way that draws units toward playing objectives, over curbstamping infants, on the occassion they run into each other.

Objectives are great, wish we had some deep, objective based modes, and game play

Shooting enemies is even more fun.


I'm all for better game modes with incentives of completing objectives..... right after I shoot the enemies.

[naterist]

Jack Booted Thug, on 05 February 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'm all for better game modes with incentives of completing objectives..... right after I shoot the enemies.

and when the skill gap is too big and the enemies are to easy to kill, its called a stomp. making the objective a priority over the killing would make those stomps less painful for the ones getting rolled. maybe a bonus for doing the objective fast. every 5 minutes you lose a bit of a bonus you would otherwise have gotten, because letting the rolls continue is dumb, its obviously detrimental to fp's very small population. we need to fix that problem or no fp release will be able to save the mode, and it will die off.

[justcallme A S H]

Jack Booted Thug, on 05 February 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

Objectives are great, wish we had some deep, objective based modes, and game play

Shooting enemies is even more fun.


I'm all for better game modes with incentives of completing objectives..... right after I shoot the enemies.

This is a team based FPS. I play because it's, wait for it - a FPS.

If I want to play a MMO/RPG - I'll go play one, cause MWO is a... FPS.

The min this game turns into running around a map chasing objectives and who knows what else, and even sharper decline of population will occur because it's not FPS...

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 February 2017 - 01:33 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

The only way to solve Faction Warfare outside of fixing minor issues, is to increase player population. Thus allowing a match maker to handle groups and solos. BUT you can't magically create a bigger player base.

Oh that player base also has to be active enough 24/7.

[Albino Boo]

naterist, on 05 February 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

and when the skill gap is too big and the enemies are to easy to kill, its called a stomp. making the objective a priority over the killing would make those stomps less painful for the ones getting rolled. maybe a bonus for doing the objective fast. every 5 minutes you lose a bit of a bonus you would otherwise have gotten, because letting the rolls continue is dumb, its obviously detrimental to fp's very small population. we need to fix that problem or no fp release will be able to save the mode, and it will die off.

PGI cannot make skilled players unskilled and unskilled players skilled. Skilled players will still use their superior situational awareness and organization to win in pure objective based game play. If your mentality does not evolve beyond being passive then you will not win against a proactive team. Even in solo quickplay the team that moves together beats the teams that stands still 80% of the time.

[PFC Carsten]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 05 February 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Already had that.
Premades started crying because they couidn't farm pugs and had to actually put some work into FP to earn c-billls.
Appearently, the pugqueue wasn't filled enough to substain maintance (i've played said said unitless pug queue at that time, always full, matches never took longer then 2-3 minutes to form).

And at the same time, there was an additional split of queues. 4-way split might have been too much. But it just fits the narrative, doesn't it? Big Units elite-pro players still happy clubbing now.

Toha Heavy Industries, on 05 February 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Also, besides 12 vs 12 most fun an balanced games in FP i've ever had.

By all means!

[B L O O D W I T C H]

PFC Carsten, on 06 February 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

And at the same time, there was an additional split of queues. 4-way split might have been too much. But it just fits the narrative, doesn't it? Big Units elite-pro players still happy clubbing now.

True that.
I still remember the outcry on the forum, about how emtpy the unitless PUG FP queue was (of which roughly 95% was posted by guys with unit tags).
That's the downside of PGI's trying to cater towards the vocal minorities here on the forums.. clans to stronk.. gauss to stronk.. pug queue empty.. can't do dropship.. etc etc..

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 06 February 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[TWIAFU]

PFC Carsten, on 05 February 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

Totally. So one queue for the elite-elitist 12 premades and a solo queue for the solos and all those not "gud nuff" to get into one of the elite 12 premades.

Your boogeyman STILL does not exist. You have been told that the 12man premade is 1% OR LESS of the actual group population.

PGI told you this.

Unless your actually going to sit there and try to tell everyone that all of the sudden 12man premades have had a sudden explosion in population....

We can smell what your shoveling.

[f00lish1]

Shouldn't the Pugstomps be incentive enough for the PUGs to group up and stop bringing terrible mechs?

[James Argent]

Put the onus on the stomping team to take the actual objective instead of letting them play every mode like Skirmish. Make them lose the match if they ignore the objectives to farm kills. Once a certain kill lead is reached and therefore it's obvious that they could easily win by capturing/holding the objective, have the objective counter count down for the other team unless the stomping team is actively capping it. If you can get and maintain a 12 mech kill lead...you can definitely get in the circle/on the enemy base.

If you think about it, any commander who disobeyed orders for personal glory, putting the lives and mechs of his unit in unnecessary danger, would be ordered off the field in disgrace and replaced by someone willing to follow orders.

[Jack Booted Thug]

James Argent, on 06 February 2017 - 07:45 PM, said:

Put the onus on the stomping team to take the actual objective instead of letting them play every mode like Skirmish. Make them lose the match if they ignore the objectives to farm kills. Once a certain kill lead is reached and therefore it's obvious that they could easily win by capturing/holding the objective, have the objective counter count down for the other team unless the stomping team is actively capping it. If you can get and maintain a 12 mech kill lead...you can definitely get in the circle/on the enemy base.

If you think about it, any commander who disobeyed orders for personal glory, putting the lives and mechs of his unit in unnecessary danger, would be ordered off the field in disgrace and replaced by someone willing to follow orders.

It's impossible for me to disobey orders.....I don't take them. I do like to bark them out though. And I wouldn't ask someone to do anything I wouldn't do. I'm usually the tip of the spear.

If you sit in the rear and play passively, your charred remains should be removed from the field in disgrace.



Edit: spelling

Edited by Jack Booted Thug, 06 February 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[James Argent]

For all your strutting about, you still have an employer who decided that the mission is to take the beacon or capture the enemy base. You took orders when you boarded the dropship.

If you sit in the rear and play passively you're not going to be contesting the objective. That doesn't mean your opponents should be able to win the match by doing the exact same thing, only in the front and aggressively. The problem this thread is addressing is sadistically forcing the PUGs to drop all 48 mechs when you know they can't do anything but test your ability to clay pigeon them from below the dropship, instead of just finishing the match efficiently when you've already demonstrated that you're more than capable of doing so. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed, no matter whether or not you choose to accept its reality. PUGs will still be bad and lose...you can't change that. But if a loss is easier to accept than getting all of their mechs atomic wedgied every single time, the PUGs might stick around long enough to 'git gud.'

Also, perhaps if a match's bonus C-Bill compensation was based not on mechs slagged into useless trash, but on enemy mechs captured intact, you'd think twice before farming PUGs all the time and only kill those you need to kill to win the match. Why should you get paid more for not bringing back whole mechs?

[naterist]

James Argent, on 06 February 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

For all your strutting about, you still have an employer who decided that the mission is to take the beacon or capture the enemy base. You took orders when you boarded the dropship.

If you sit in the rear and play passively you're not going to be contesting the objective. That doesn't mean your opponents should be able to win the match by doing the exact same thing, only in the front and aggressively. The problem this thread is addressing is sadistically forcing the PUGs to drop all 48 mechs when you know they can't do anything but test your ability to clay pigeon them from below the dropship, instead of just finishing the match efficiently when you've already demonstrated that you're more than capable of doing so. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed, no matter whether or not you choose to accept its reality. PUGs will still be bad and lose...you can't change that. But if a loss is easier to accept than getting all of their mechs atomic wedgied every single time, the PUGs might stick around long enough to 'git gud.'

Also, perhaps if a match's bonus C-Bill compensation was based not on mechs slagged into useless trash, but on enemy mechs captured intact, you'd think twice before farming PUGs all the time and only kill those you need to kill to win the match. Why should you get paid more for not bringing back whole mechs?

exactly

[Albino Boo]

James Argent, on 06 February 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

For all your strutting about, you still have an employer who decided that the mission is to take the beacon or capture the enemy base. You took orders when you boarded the dropship.

If you sit in the rear and play passively you're not going to be contesting the objective. That doesn't mean your opponents should be able to win the match by doing the exact same thing, only in the front and aggressively. The problem this thread is addressing is sadistically forcing the PUGs to drop all 48 mechs when you know they can't do anything but test your ability to clay pigeon them from below the dropship, instead of just finishing the match efficiently when you've already demonstrated that you're more than capable of doing so. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed, no matter whether or not you choose to accept its reality. PUGs will still be bad and lose...you can't change that. But if a loss is easier to accept than getting all of their mechs atomic wedgied every single time, the PUGs might stick around long enough to 'git gud.'

Also, perhaps if a match's bonus C-Bill compensation was based not on mechs slagged into useless trash, but on enemy mechs captured intact, you'd think twice before farming PUGs all the time and only kill those you need to kill to win the match. Why should you get paid more for not bringing back whole mechs?

I wish people would think things through. All that will happen is they will leg the other team instead of killing them and you grief the the other team by ejecting/suiciding.

[tokumboh]

Speaking from personal experience my only good experience of FW has been big events such as Battle of Tukayyid
It meant there was enough groups and enough units taking part and enough drop commanders to organise the teams.

I found it fun what I found post that was that you need to devote a lot of time to learning the maps and where and how to push and counter which for the casual player cannot devote the time to it.

At best I play 5 hours a week. I am sure there are other that get a sneaky couple of games in here and there but that means that FW will always a niche in a game that is already niche. Now if you can get player numbers up then I think you have a chance but I am not sure that PGI has the capability to do that.

My only thing I would do is make the rewards for playing FW good enough and then you can get enough players to play. InQP you can get an average of 6 games in an hour and even if you average around 200 damage per game you could net you 3 win and 3 losses and 1Million C bills and 5000 XP

FW only gives you that sort of numbers if you are very good and if you win since you'd spend as much as 20 minutes trying to find a game and at best would get two games per hour and there is a higher chance of getting stomped so people will stay away

The PSR thing should go and it should be based on match score and ranking of the match score with peers. the fact that everyone can make it to tier 1 makes no sense

[TWIAFU]

f00lish1, on 06 February 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Shouldn't the Pugstomps be incentive enough for the PUGs to group up and stop bringing terrible mechs?

You would think so.....

However, it is "fun" for them to bring Trials and un-basic'd mechs.

It is "fun" for them to play QP with respawn in CW.

It is "fun" for them to play solo in end game and the Unit/Group centric gamemode.

It is "fun" for them to self impose harder gameplay and then complain about harder gameplay.

It is "fun" for them to blame groups/unit as the source of all evil in the group/unit queue of the game.


Solo pugs in CW should be put into a 'holding area' until there are at least 4 or more to make a group then automatically put into that group then put into queue.

There, solo pugs are now in a group and now cannot complain about groups. Rest is up to them.

Furthermore, only way to earn c-bills, xp, LP, is to be in a group or make it so the bonuses are so great, would be dumb to drop solo, more then it is now.

Edited by TWIAFU, 07 February 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

cant really penalize respawns because you get 4 mechs and there should be no reason you dont want to use the 4 mechs