83 replies to this topic

[beaver1776]

TWIAFU, on 07 February 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

Furthermore, only way to earn c-bills, xp, LP, is to be in a group or make it so the bonuses are so great, would be dumb to drop solo, more then it is now.

TWIAFU...Now this, this is a damned good idea. I don't know if anyone has brought this up before. If you aren't grouped up with someone then your payouts, XP and LP should be minimal. I can only imagine many PUGs come here for the decent rewards.

[PFC Carsten]

TWIAFU, on 06 February 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Your boogeyman STILL does not exist. You have been told that the 12man premade is 1% OR LESS of the actual group population.

PGI told you this.

Unless your actually going to sit there and try to tell everyone that all of the sudden 12man premades have had a sudden explosion in population....

We can smell what your shoveling.

Wait - wat?? There are PUG groups not even elitist enough to get into a real unit of 12? They should just git gudder and strive to be accepted into the pinnacle of Faction Play that is a 12 premade. Everything else is kindergarten.

*continues shovelling back to where it came from*

TWIAFU, on 07 February 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

Solo pugs in CW should be put into a 'holding area' until there are at least 4 or more to make a group then automatically put into that group then put into queue.

There, solo pugs are now in a group and now cannot complain about groups. Rest is up to them.

lol troll?

TWIAFU, on 07 February 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

Furthermore, only way to earn c-bills, xp, LP, is to be in a group or make it so the bonuses are so great, would be dumb to drop solo, more then it is now.

Maybe that would be a working incentive for more people to form units. Yes, I could see that. Nice suggestion.

[tee5]

Reza Malin, on 05 February 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

...Their go to response, ... , and "join a unit", which hasn't worked for 3 years, but hey, lets keep saying the same crap because its edgy and cool on the forums!

Go JOIN a UNIT, form groups in TEAMSPEAK, AND STOP playing, a game mode intended for GROUPS, SOLO!

PS: I like TWIAFU's suggestion, too!

Edited by tee5, 07 February 2017 - 05:55 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

TWIAFU, on 07 February 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

Furthermore, only way to earn c-bills, xp, LP, is to be in a group or make it so the bonuses are so great, would be dumb to drop solo, more then it is now.

Counterargument: Reverse it. The bigger the group (and the bigger the "rolfstomping" factor becomes) the lower the rewards become.
Sure as hell, if you PUG against a full premade, your rewards should be (at least for a win or even semi good results) a metric sh#tton higher then the rewards a full premade gets for sealclubbing.
Besides, you seem to misunderstand something about Pugs, they are neither mentally handicapped nor socially inebt.
PUG just means random group, a random group can play as a team in a team based mode.
FP is NOT the promised endgame mode for the elite bigshots. You should have noticed it by now.
Most players who participate are casuals. most even que solo.
Stop catering for the minority which are full premades. I am not allowed to drag my t1 badge into the t5 queue to pretend i am "leet" and farm mad c-bills but for FP it is somehow totally acceptable because "endgame".
If FP is endgame, then so is group queue and t1 pug queue. Hence, there is not effing endgame at all. Just one gamemode which is harder then the other two on casuals and PUG and small groups.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 07 February 2017 - 06:47 AM.

[Deathlike]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 07 February 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

Counterargument: Reverse it. The bigger the group (and the bigger the "rolfstomping" factor becomes) the lower the rewards become.
Sure as hell, if you PUG against a full premade, your rewards should be (at least for a win or even semi good results) a metric sh#tton higher then the rewards a full premade gets for sealclubbing.
Besides, you seem to misunderstand something about Pugs, they are neither mentally handicapped nor socially inebt.
PUG just means random group, a random group can play as a team in a team based mode.
FP is NOT the promised endgame mode for the elite bigshots. You should have noticed it by now.
Most players who participate are casuals. most even que solo.
Stop catering for the minority which are full premades. I am not allowed to drag my t1 badge into the t5 queue to pretend i am "leet" and farm mad c-bills but for FP it is somehow totally acceptable because "endgame".
If FP is endgame, then so is group queue and t1 pug queue. Hence, there is not effing endgame at all. Just one gamemode which is harder then the other two on casuals and PUG and small groups.

That doesn't actually solve things.

It just means smaller groups would be formed, with the occasional syncdropping.

It does not solve what you think would solve.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2017 - 07:10 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

It would be SO easy to eliminate unit-syncdropping, if PGI hired a programmer. In fact, even I could do it. So that argument lacks both mustache and robot.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Deathlike, on 07 February 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

That doesn't actually solve things.

It just means smaller groups would be formed, with the occasional syncdropping.

It does not solve what you think would solve.

That would solve a lot!

You honestly want to tell me that occasional syncdropping is worse than full premades vs seals? Really now?

It would not solve everything and, yea, it's not the "oh look errything wrong with FP got fixed instantaneously!" but it's a start at least, not stagnation like we have it up 'till now.

[beaver1776]

What I believe TWAIFU was originally getting at is we need to give incentives to players to play within a group or a unit. There is no need to punish the coordinated groups. It is not these groups causing poor play, it is players refusing to try and coordinate that is causing poor play. Giving them an incentive might make them want to group up. Which will likely lead to better play and...better pay!

[MacClearly]

Reza Malin, on 05 February 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

This.

Apparently FW is not for the general playerbase, but only the elitist veterans, who apparently all want "the ultimate test of skill on skill combat", yet refuse to change the way they play to avoid rolling teams of unorganised newer players.

It is never going to change, because too many of the long term players will not take any responsibility for the game and how it has stagnated. Their go to response, is "potato", and "join a unit", which hasn't worked for 3 years, but hey, lets keep saying the same crap because its edgy and cool on the forums!

Without compromise, there is no solution.

Really? It hasn't worked? Gees I joined a unit and we have a winning wlr in FW and have lots fo fun. I would say that it is working great for me.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

beaver1776, on 07 February 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

It is not these groups causing poor play, it is players refusing to try and coordinate that is causing poor play.

Oh Gawd lawl.
Yes! That is what's ruining FP, how often do we have to see a fresh 12 man premade, taking their elited min/maxed comp decks out to try FP for the first time. Only to get matched against socially inept PUGs, filthy casuals who can't even get proper focus fire going on.
Of course, the poor premade will get discouraged camping the dz, vast amount of c-bills earned and the minigame "who can kill the dropping mech before it touched the ground" is surely not enough to make FP appealing.
Earning as little as 10, 20 million c-bills for noskill sealclubbing per evening, who in their right mindset would want that?!

That's what is driving the bulk of FP players away, the premades, forced to play group queue or even league again.
Meanwhile, PUGs continue to be bad and drop solo into FP, having all the fun while getting camped.
That is what actually happens all the time.. right? right?!
Get your perspective right, bruh.

[Deathlike]

If the queues are what I think they are, the ability to syncdrop simply increases when population is at its lowest... and they are pretty low for FP. It's akin to seeing a lot of the same people in QP (particularly moreso in the group queue).

You're not really fixing any core problems as a consequence.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 February 2017 - 11:45 AM.

[beaver1776]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 07 February 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

That's what is driving the bulk of FP players away, the premades, forced to play group queue or even league again.
Meanwhile, PUGs continue to be bad and drop solo into FP, having all the fun while getting camped.
That is what actually happens all the time.. right? right?!
Get your perspective right, bruh.

Is it really the premade's decent play driving them away or, is it the PUG's own poor play? I will admit though, the game and the community as a whole, lacks a real mechanism to teach successful play.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Deathlike, on 07 February 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

If the queues are what I think they are, the ability to syncdrop simply increases when population is at its lowest... and they are pretty low for FP. It's akin to seeing a lot of the same people in QP (particularly moreso in the group queue).

You're not really fixing any core problems as a consequence.

I sorta agree and disagree at the same time here. Yes it stands and falls with population, sealclubbing is not healthy for the population. Therefor, i conclude that everything that makes PUGs stay in FP is a good thing. Everything which drives away Player is a bad thing.
If you want fix FP, fix the population problem. We gotta go and ask especially those who do NOT play FP and those who did play FP and left.
Afaik three major points when it comes to "y u no play FP" have been mapdesign, sealclubbing and waiting time.
And believe it or not, if you look at what PGI did over the last month you will see that they addressed it quite well.

waiting time? sealclubbing? one bucked solution
mapdesign? So ppl like quickplay maps more then FP maps? Let them play quickplay maps with FP respawn then.
Even scoutmode caters to those who did not want or could not wait and play for a full 12 man matchup 30 minute game.

beaver1776, on 07 February 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Is it really the premade's decent play driving them away or, is it the PUG's own poor play? I will admit though, the game and the community as a whole, lacks a real mechanism to teach successful play.

I'd say both, together. That's what happend and that is why FP is a wasteland.
Granted, new folks who join FP and stick their heads out of a trench only to get greeted by 500 point worth of focus fire from roughly 8+ kdk3/MX90/"insert meta here" mechs won't learn much beside the insight that being the recieving end of a clubbing session is not much fun.
Let PUGs play against PUGs and problem is solved. But then again, we're not getting fresh Pugs because they got clubbed right away uppon arrival.
When we had a queue system where the total fresh players could be matched up in FP at semi equal footing (unitless queue)
The so called endgame community got very vocal on forums about unbearable waiting times.

We're not tossing new players into t1 matches for a reason, we put them in t5 so they can enjoy their ride, have fun shooting and get shot at and maybe learn something in the process. Most importently, make them stay and play the game.

FP is not the endgame content as many want it to be. We simply do not have a big enough population who is actively playing said group based endgame. Maybe, if we get enough PUG to stay and play FP long enough so they get the mode, the FP meta, and all. We might get to a point where we will have a big enough active endgame community but currently we do not.
We're currently a point where seals getting rare and rarer to the point that premades also got less and less to do.

A prime example of a downward spiral. We need to break said spiral and simply telling our beloved PUGs to "gid gud" and not get spawncamped has been proofed to be insufficiant for that matter.

[MacClearly]

naterist, on 05 February 2017 - 04:15 PM, said:

the point isnt to not kill enemies. its to make the objective something people are interested in taking more then massacring. the fighting comes from both sides trying to take the objective simultaneously, which is what war is, and fp is supposed to simulate a war. instead of viewing each round as 48 mech deathamtch, with side things to do, lets make it about objectives. one reason i love conquest so much is that its a lot of fun to take a light and strategically traverse the map, all sneaky like, and get caps. thats a lot of fun. it also takes a lot of coordination and planning. if im going for the enemies side caps i need my heavies making noise at theta or the middle so i can sneak by, and if you dont think that takes coordination, think again.

killing mechs is great, but adding objectives will make things insanely better. i cant wait for incursion. there will finally be more roles for harrassing mediums and light strike teams and stuff other then 8 heavies and some mediums duking it out at range, like we get more often then id like. that gets old, and doesnt simulate anything. i can snipe in the newest CoD if i wanted that. i want some variance in strategies and modes, and i want the modes to be emphasized more and more because thats really been a draw for newer people and its a nice breathe of fresh air. if anything is to be taken out of 4.1 its that objectives are fun and need to be rewarded and focused more. hopefully we can get objectives that effect gameplay more and matter more then the kills and damage count.

maybe we need to start highlighting match score more in the post game screen, and making that affect c-bills more than damage, and highlight it more in the post match screen to help people understand what theyre getting the extra cbills for.
we already know damage isnt what makes a great player, so lets try and emphasize and reward objective based playing more.

tl;dr: objectives are fun. reward us a lot for doing them. side bonus, we can do it in a way that draws units toward playing objectives, over curbstamping infants, on the occassion they run into each other.

I also like conquest. One of the reasons is I like being in a light pack (or lights and 40t cicada or viper). Also like the idea of being able to force a team to split to deal with you. However as much as you and I like it, it generally plays out as skirmish with maybe one or two lights aside capping. That happens in quick play and it puggy FW 4.1. Units will obviously coordinate better or dedicate cappers.

So you see this boogeyman of units standing in the way of objectives. What's funny is that is not reflective of what is going on in the game. Uncoordinated pugs generally ignore objectives or barely attempt at playing them. Organised units however generally have a plan to actually deal with the objectives...after they shoot the enemy as Jack Booted Thug (who is great to drop with by the way o7 DERP) has said.

So if you want a more objective based game, why not try and come up with a way to get the 95% of the population doing so instead of targeting the 5% who actually account for objectives?

[Jack Booted Thug]

James Argent, on 06 February 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

For all your strutting about, you still have an employer who decided that the mission is to take the beacon or capture the enemy base. You took orders when you boarded the dropship.

If you sit in the rear and play passively you're not going to be contesting the objective. That doesn't mean your opponents should be able to win the match by doing the exact same thing, only in the front and aggressively. The problem this thread is addressing is sadistically forcing the PUGs to drop all 48 mechs when you know they can't do anything but test your ability to clay pigeon them from below the dropship, instead of just finishing the match efficiently when you've already demonstrated that you're more than capable of doing so. This is a real problem that needs to be addressed, no matter whether or not you choose to accept its reality. PUGs will still be bad and lose...you can't change that. But if a loss is easier to accept than getting all of their mechs atomic wedgied every single time, the PUGs might stick around long enough to 'git gud.'

Also, perhaps if a match's bonus C-Bill compensation was based not on mechs slagged into useless trash, but on enemy mechs captured intact, you'd think twice before farming PUGs all the time and only kill those you need to kill to win the match. Why should you get paid more for not bringing back whole mechs?

So you're just looking for a "humane" way to put them down?

Also, some of us don't give a shti about cbills.

[James Argent]

A way that doesn't make them want to ragequit, yes. People don't mind losing as much if you aren't a (phallus) about it, either over all chat or by the way you beat them.

[Deathlike]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 07 February 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

I sorta agree and disagree at the same time here. Yes it stands and falls with population, sealclubbing is not healthy for the population. Therefor, i conclude that everything that makes PUGs stay in FP is a good thing. Everything which drives away Player is a bad thing.
If you want fix FP, fix the population problem. We gotta go and ask especially those who do NOT play FP and those who did play FP and left.
Afaik three major points when it comes to "y u no play FP" have been mapdesign, sealclubbing and waiting time.
And believe it or not, if you look at what PGI did over the last month you will see that they addressed it quite well.

I don't believe that for a second. From Escort (being bad) to really being bad at Domination spawn point placement (I mean, Alpine being one of them).. and they've yet to really touch Invasion (pretty much avoiding "fixing" it altogether).

So.. no.

[naterist]

TWIAFU, on 07 February 2017 - 03:47 AM, said:

You would think so.....

However, it is "fun" for them to bring Trials and un-basic'd mechs.

It is "fun" for them to play QP with respawn in CW.

It is "fun" for them to play solo in end game and the Unit/Group centric gamemode.

It is "fun" for them to self impose harder gameplay and then complain about harder gameplay.

It is "fun" for them to blame groups/unit as the source of all evil in the group/unit queue of the game.


Solo pugs in CW should be put into a 'holding area' until there are at least 4 or more to make a group then automatically put into that group then put into queue.

There, solo pugs are now in a group and now cannot complain about groups. Rest is up to them.

Furthermore, only way to earn c-bills, xp, LP, is to be in a group or make it so the bonuses are so great, would be dumb to drop solo, more then it is now.

i like this idea with a few exceptions.

• not groups of 4, groups of 12. and if someone leaves, they auto get a new member from the que to keep a 12 man
  
• VoiP is added to group lobby, so when your all readying up pre launch, you have voice comms, ts or no.
  
• you have access to mechlab in this group if you arent searching or in lobby (so they keep the mechlab mechanic, except now theres voicecomms

3a) only groups of 12 man drop in fw, and premades of less than 12 are filled out with pugs into their group.

optional

• make mics required for fw.
  
• dropcaller or originator of group can drop noncooperative players. in 12man pug groups the dropcaller/originator position is whoevers been in longest, or we institute a voting for leader mechanism.

Edited by naterist, 07 February 2017 - 09:26 PM.

[Jack Booted Thug]

naterist, on 07 February 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

i like this idea with a few exceptions.

• not groups of 4, groups of 12. and if someone leaves, they auto get a new member from the que to keep a 12 man
  
• VoiP is added to group lobby, so when your all readying up pre launch, you have voice comms, ts or no.
  
• you have access to mechlab in this group if you arent searching or in lobby (so they keep the mechlab mechanic, except now theres voicecomms

3a) only groups of 12 man drop in fw, and premades of less than 12 are filled out with pugs into their group.


optional

• make mics required for fw.
  
• dropcaller or originator of group can drop noncooperative players. in 12man pug groups the dropcaller/originator position is whoevers been in longest, or we institute a voting for leader mechanism.

LOL, we have this right now. Groups of 12 SOLO players. Since beta 1......


comms and drop caller originator? Yea, herding cats.... since beta 1.......


Team players find teams, teams find them, since beta 1.......


Solo players do their own thing generally speaking (sure, there some exceptions).... since beta 1........

[RaptorCWS]

Here is the incentive . Pugs do you want to win? If yes bring good builds, use coms and coordinate. If no keep bringing lrm Jenners and playing exactly the way you are now.