814 replies to this topic

[Hastur Azargo]

Dee Eight, on 12 February 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perspective people...

In one year of play from January 4th, 2016 to January 4th, 2017 played over ten thousand games, at an average of just over 140k cbills and 1200 XP per match. That means I could have bought EIGHT thousand skill points in a year. That's just on mech XP. Most players of the game are not mech harem owners like me (currently 209 mechs) and thus the new skill tree system isn't the sky is falling scenario the forum warrior whinage brigade want to make it out to be. I actually like the skill tree proposed. I hope PGI sticks to this plan and doesn't knuckle under like they've done in the past because of a hundred complainers on the forum. See the BIG picture... there's tens of thousands of players of the game each month, and yet only a thousand or so actually use the forums.

I'm going to go ahead and disappoint you, because the BIG picture doesn't consist of people that can play over 10 000 games a year. The game, as good as it is, is quite repetitive, and can cause burnout fairly quickly, especially for people that aren't in their first year playing this game. This will be compounded by the knowledge that grind for each mech has tripled, and now has a nice big lump of c-bills as an overhead payment. People. Will. Quit.

But hey, I too hope "PGI sticks to this plan and doesn't knuckle under like they've done in the past", because you people thinking this is okay deserve this to be implemented, if only to see that what you were seeing was NOT the big picture.

Set Hype to maximum for the incoming "KDK-3-warrior online" and its demographic implosion! Yay!

[Osis]

Dee Eight, on 12 February 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perspective people...

In one year of play from January 4th, 2016 to January 4th, 2017 played over ten thousand games, at an average of just over 140k cbills and 1200 XP per match. That means I could have bought EIGHT thousand skill points in a year. That's just on mech XP. Most players of the game are not mech harem owners like me (currently 209 mechs) and thus the new skill tree system isn't the sky is falling scenario the forum warrior whinage brigade want to make it out to be. I actually like the skill tree proposed. I hope PGI sticks to this plan and doesn't knuckle under like they've done in the past because of a hundred complainers on the forum. See the BIG picture... there's tens of thousands of players of the game each month, and yet only a thousand or so actually use the forums.

Get a life.....

[BLOOD WOLF]

Hastur Azargo, on 12 February 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

But hey, I too hope "PGI sticks to this plan and doesn't knuckle under like they've done in the past", because you people thinking this is okay deserve this to be implemented, if only to see that what you were seeing was NOT the big picture.

that's really fallacious. basically making the deceleration that if somebody is not seeing what you are seeing, means that they are not seeing the bigger picture. As if you are the one capable of actually seeing and then knowing what the "bigger picture means".

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 12 February 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[Hellroy]

Half the fun of this game is monkey-wrenching in the Mechlab. 9 million c-bills is extreme guys. I never complain, but I had looked forward to purchasing more mechs with those c-bills(and mechbays to store em in with MC). Now I'll never need another bay, cause all my c-cash will be wrapped up in mechlab experiments. Thanks PGI, I really appreciate you, especially when you find ways not to take my real world money.

Honestly guys, this system can be great if you let it be. Don't take away mechlab meddling. It is a staple of the game. The xp I can deal with, kinda looking forward to grinding out mechs the rest of the way to 91 nodes. But, I also want to look forward to trying new builds and messing with quirks/weapons/etc, and not going bankrupt in the process.

Your Humble Pilot
Hellroy

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 12 February 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perspective people...

In one year of play from January 4th, 2016 to January 4th, 2017 played over ten thousand games, at an average of just over 140k cbills and 1200 XP per match. That means I could have bought EIGHT thousand skill points in a year. That's just on mech XP. Most players of the game are not mech harem owners like me (currently 209 mechs) and thus the new skill tree system isn't the sky is falling scenario the forum warrior whinage brigade want to make it out to be. I actually like the skill tree proposed. I hope PGI sticks to this plan and doesn't knuckle under like they've done in the past because of a hundred complainers on the forum. See the BIG picture... there's tens of thousands of players of the game each month, and yet only a thousand or so actually use the forums.

I suggest some perspective is needed for situations outside your obvious outlier example, because the average player plays just a small fraction of the 10k battles per year that you do.

According to leaderboard averages, it is 75 to 99 battles per month/season, which adds up to 900 to 1,188 battles per year. And that is assuming each player will play every month of the entire year; most won't.

For the average player, they will make enough XP and cbills to master a single mech, every 1 to 2 months of active play, which is incredibly slow progress.

[Appogee]

I have 247 Mechs, 207 of which are fully Mastered.

Under the new Skill Tree:

• only 32 of my Mechs have enough additional "Historical XP" to be Mastered immediately.
  
• If I also use all of my stored 330,000 GXP to "top up" other Mechs, I can Master another 8.
  
• GXP Refunds on the 33 Pilot Skills I unlocked would enable me to "top up" another 3 Mechs.

So: I'll go from from 207 Mastered Mechs to 43.

From a CBills perspective I'll need about 400M CBills to Master those 43 Mechs. But I'll be refunded about 550M CBills from Module purchases, so I'll have an additional 150M spare. But this doesn't make me any more enthusiastic for the new system, given it will now take 136,000 XP to Master any new Mech.

So, basically, the new Skill Tree will render "pointless" all the time I previously spent acquiring and Mastering so many Mechs. While it's only a game, I do feel kind of sad about the loss of all that history.

Edited by Appogee, 12 February 2017 - 10:12 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Appogee, on 12 February 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

I have 247 Mechs, 207 of which are fully Mastered.

Under the new Skill Tree:

• only 32 of my Mechs have enough additional "Historical XP" to be Mastered immediately.
  
• If I also use all of my stored 330,000 GXP to "top up" other Mechs, I can Master another 8.
  
• GXP Refunds on the 33 Pilot Skills I unlocked would enable me to "top up" another 3 Mechs.

So: I'll go from from 207 Mastered Mechs to 43.

From a CBills perspective I'll need about 400M CBills to Master those 43 Mechs. But I'll be refunded about 550M CBills from Module purchases, so I'll have an additional 150M spare. But this doesn't make me any more enthusiastic for the new system, given it will now take 136,000 XP to Master any new Mech.

So, basically, the new Skill Tree will render "pointless" all the time I previously spent acquiring and Mastering so many Mechs. While it's only a game, I do feel kind of sad about the loss of all that history.

A New or relatively new people are not going to have the resources without grinding their eyes out will be able to get those numbers in a timely manner.

[Dee Eight]

BLOOD WOLF, on 12 February 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

yea, such a great counter argument. He makes a good point.


you are such a troll. You literally lurk the forums and troll respond to any post I make. Seriously you need to be banned.

Ah so you're not the only one he stalks around the forums...shame the mods don't like... moderate him.

Appogee, on 12 February 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

I have 247 Mechs, 207 of which are fully Mastered.

Under the new Skill Tree:

• only 32 of my Mechs have enough additional "Historical XP" to be Mastered immediately.
  
• If I also use all of my stored 330,000 GXP to "top up" other Mechs, I can Master another 8.
  
• GXP Refunds on the 33 Pilot Skills I unlocked would enable me to "top up" another 3 Mechs.

So: I'll go from from 207 Mastered Mechs to 43.

From a CBills perspective I'll need about 400M CBills to Master those 43 Mechs. But I'll be refunded about 550M CBills from Module purchases, so I'll have an additional 150M spare. But this doesn't make me any more enthusiastic for the new system, given it will now take 136,000 XP to Master any new Mech.

So, basically, the new Skill Tree will render "pointless" all the time I previously spent acquiring and Mastering so many Mechs. While it's only a game, I do feel kind of sad about the loss of all that history.

And what happened 14 or so months ago when they halved all the skill bonuses of the existing tree ? Was all the time you spent playing the game also rendered pointless ? That they provide a "skill" system at all, is a priviledge...not a right.

[Wegrotzer]

I DONT WANT TO PAY cBILLS FOR UNLOCKING SKILLS!

[PAQUERA]

Appogee, on 12 February 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

I have 247 Mechs, 207 of which are fully Mastered.

Under the new Skill Tree:

• only 32 of my Mechs have enough additional "Historical XP" to be Mastered immediately.
  
• If I also use all of my stored 330,000 GXP to "top up" other Mechs, I can Master another 8.
  
• GXP Refunds on the 33 Pilot Skills I unlocked would enable me to "top up" another 3 Mechs.

So: I'll go from from 207 Mastered Mechs to 43.



From a CBills perspective I'll need about 400M CBills to Master those 43 Mechs. But I'll be refunded about 550M CBills from Module purchases, so I'll have an additional 150M spare. But this doesn't make me any more enthusiastic for the new system, given it will now take 136,000 XP to Master any new Mech.

I can master 19 mechs with the changes. Im happy with the new system. More freedonm to choose, more specialization, more focus

So, basically, the new Skill Tree will render "pointless" all the time I previously spent acquiring and Mastering so many Mechs. While it's only a game, I do feel kind of sad about the loss of all that history.

Master a mech must be a luxury, an scarce and heroic situation.

U can master with the changes about 43 mechs. Choose wisely. And by the way, u realy play with more that 43 mechs? i ussually use no more than 20-30 mechs. 43 mechs are far enough to play relaxing and grind ur next mech

I can master about 19 mechs. Im happy with the new system. More focus, more freedom to choose, more specialization

Edited by PAQUERA, 13 February 2017 - 02:34 AM.

[Willothius]

Dee Eight, on 12 February 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

Perspective people...

In one year of play from January 4th, 2016 to January 4th, 2017 played over ten thousand games, at an average of just over 140k cbills and 1200 XP per match. That means I could have bought EIGHT thousand skill points in a year.

Ok, let's take a moment to do the math:
That's almost 30 matches EVERY DAY, doesn't sound like your average MWO pilot to me, and I thought I played a lot already!
So, then you make enough CBills to skill up about 150 mechs. That's a lot, but I do assume you also wanna keep spending on new mechs? (How else did you get the 200+ mechs?) That to me is my biggest CBill sink; I have 100+ mechs, but only about 75mln banked, cause I love buying new stuff to try! That'll reduce significantly if cost for skills goes up.
Besides, even with your excessive playing, those 8000 points are still only 85 mechs fully skilled. That's 2,5 years for all your current mechs. Now I don't know about you, but I do keep fiddling around with most of my mechs, so considering future purchases and skill overhauls, it's not looking cheap,even for 10.000 games a year.

So yeah, not really a perspective I'm looking forward to..

[Gernot von Kurzmann]

I have 141 leveled mechs and 5 almost done leveled.

But this masterpiece of *** will destroy MWO for me.

Let us hope it was an early april joke and not more!!!

I dont have the time and fun anymore when this would be realised and switch too an other game.

Real life is stronger!!!!!!

[Hastur Azargo]

BLOOD WOLF, on 12 February 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

that's really fallacious. basically making the deceleration that if somebody is not seeing what you are seeing, means that they are not seeing the bigger picture. As if you are the one capable of actually seeing and then knowing what the "bigger picture means".

You seem to have missed the first paragraph of my post, where I provide the reasoning behind me thinking what I'm thinking. I wasn't just making a conjecture. You also seem to miss complaints from all the other people that say this will feel like a hard reset to them, and the fact that playing 10k matches/year is in no way close to average. What you're saying, while ignoring concerns from everyone else, is that you'll be fine. And you will, unless you unexpectedly burn yourself out, but like I said, you guys deserve this to be implemented, of only to see what happens.

[ATR0P0S]

I wanna see something like that:

Spoiler

[Appogee]

Dee Eight, on 13 February 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

That they provide a "skill" system at all, is a priviledge...not a right.

I also bought a car with an air conditioning system.

By your "logic", that air conditioning system was a priviledge (sic) and I shouldn't be concerned if the car company decides to replace it with a desk fan at the next service.

How much have you spent on MWO, incidentally?

Edited by Appogee, 13 February 2017 - 04:28 AM.

[Appogee]

PAQUERA, on 13 February 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

U can master with the changes about 43 mechs. Choose wisely.

For 32 of those Mechs, the choice is already made. That is, it's the Mechs I played so much that I built up more than 136,000 Mech XP.

There will only be 11 Mechs that I can actually "choose", based on my refunded and stored GXP. Fewer if I choose a new Mech with currently zero Mech XP.

PAQUERA, on 13 February 2017 - 02:32 AM, said:

And by the way, u realy play with more that 43 mechs? i ussually use no more than 20-30 mechs. 43 mechs are far enough to play relaxing and grind ur next mech

I mostly play to level a Mech, then buy a new Mech, repeat 247 times. But of course, sometimes the meta changes, or I see an interesting build on an unused chassis, and I go back to an old Mastered Mech and use it again for a time.

Constantly buying and levelling new Mechs for CBills isn't going to be a viable way to play MWO any more. Players will need to spend the CBills they earn to level whatever Mech they bought. And the leveling itself will take 3X as long from a Mech XP perspective.

I guess I will sell a lot of my Mechs to get the CBills I need to buy new ones. Not much point having 200 unMastered Mechs sitting around.

C'est la vie. BattleTech comes out soon. I bought Titanfall 2 last week. So I'll be less 'reliant' on MWO for entertainment.

I hope PGI wasn't relying on my to spend another couple of thousand on MWO. Because I'm not going to spend a cent on respecing, regardless of how much they plan to jerk the meta about.

Edited by Appogee, 13 February 2017 - 03:55 AM.

[MrKvola]

In the approximately 2 years and 3 months I spent playing this game I earned 12,182,999 XP. Technically, that would give me enough XP to fully level up 89 'mechs. In order to do it however I would need 810 million c-bills considering the currently proposed costs.

Also, this XP is spread out all across my 250-odd stable of 'mechs. That gives me 32-ish SP per 'mech on average. So I'd need to spend A LOT of time to get at least a bunch of them fully mastered. And on top of that I would not be able to get any new 'mechs or pretty much do anything else with the income.

No, say what you want, almost quadrupling the total XP grind does not make any sense in any regard. It will turn away new people as the endless grind will just be tedious and uninteresting. It will turn away old players as they would need to invest a huge amount of time to get where they were.

I just actually counted it from my Stats page, I would be able to instantly master 14 of my 'mechs. Don't have sufficient XP on any other. I suppose I would be able to ad 3-4 'mechs to that using GXP. Effectively I could not even master all the 'mechs I currently use for FP drops. As it is now I have the freedom to update my dropdecks as I please due to the fact that almost all of the 'mechs I own are elited or mastered. With the update I would be set back more than a YEAR of progress.

The economy as proposed is just WAY out of whack and I really hope that the costs are reduced at least by 50% before this goes into production. 40% or so of the proposed costs would be more realistic.

P.S.: and still I think the SP purchases should be unlocks, perhaps the respec fee would be OK to keep but it is utterly bad to have to re-purchase SPs over and over.

P.P.S.: and copy-pasting numbers from one of my older posts, the grind would be upped to more than 3x the original:
In order to fully upgrade a 'mech you require 136500 XP. Before the Skill Tree 35750 XP were sufficient to elite the chassis. The additional module slot was ever so often not a requirement, or that useful. That is almost 4 times (3.82 to be exact) more than previously. And even if I discount that additional module slot which would equal say 10 skill points, that makes it still almost 3.5 times as much.

Edited by MrKvola, 13 February 2017 - 04:23 AM.

[Appogee]

MrKvola, on 13 February 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

copy-pasting numbers from one of my older posts, the grind would be upped to more than 3x the original

I think it's hilarious how PGI reassured us that the Skill Tree XP values shown at MechCon were "only placeholders".

Then they increased those placeholders by 50% for the PTS.

[SuperFunkTron]

Appogee, on 12 February 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

I have 247 Mechs, 207 of which are fully Mastered.

Under the new Skill Tree:

• only 32 of my Mechs have enough additional "Historical XP" to be Mastered immediately.
  
• If I also use all of my stored 330,000 GXP to "top up" other Mechs, I can Master another 8.
  
• GXP Refunds on the 33 Pilot Skills I unlocked would enable me to "top up" another 3 Mechs.

So: I'll go from from 207 Mastered Mechs to 43.

From a CBills perspective I'll need about 400M CBills to Master those 43 Mechs. But I'll be refunded about 550M CBills from Module purchases, so I'll have an additional 150M spare. But this doesn't make me any more enthusiastic for the new system, given it will now take 136,000 XP to Master any new Mech.

So, basically, the new Skill Tree will render "pointless" all the time I previously spent acquiring and Mastering so many Mechs. While it's only a game, I do feel kind of sad about the loss of all that history.

Gernot von Kurzmann, on 13 February 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

I have 141 leveled mechs and 5 almost done leveled.

But this masterpiece of *** will destroy MWO for me.

Let us hope it was an early april joke and not more!!!

I dont have the time and fun anymore when this would be realised and switch too an other game.

Real life is stronger!!!!!!

Hastur Azargo, on 12 February 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

This will be compounded by the knowledge that grind for each mech has tripled, and now has a nice big lump of c-bills as an overhead payment. People. Will. Quit.
Set Hype to maximum for the incoming "KDK-3-warrior online" and its demographic implosion! Yay!

Sauron, on 12 February 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

So glad I mastered so many of my ~100 mechs, just to see that I won't even be able to set them back up as they currently are within the new system. (NJ sarcasm) Many of the mechs will be flat out not fun to play.

Quoted from page 30:
"The last point to really address is the complaint that people won't be able to max out all of their current elite mechs in the new system. I understand the frustration, but I believe it is rooted in misunderstanding. The reality of the new system is not that the new upgrades are equivalent to the old system, but are rather an expansion on them. The tree grew, and thus allow for MORE improvement. I think that is a critical piece of information that wasn't made clear to those with large numbers of mechs and feel that they are not being fairly compensated for their earlier efforts."

Is there an intentional denial of skill tree growth in which people assume that a huge expansion of available skills and integrated modules is equivalent to what we have in the current system? This is at the very least, a COMBINATION of the current skill and module tree. We can all agree that excessive grind for each mech is a bit overkill, but why do people continue to think that just because you achieved all the skill in the current system that they should expect to automatically be full masters of a system that gives them MORE depth? To make it more clear, being angry that you can't max out all of your mechs right away is like upgrading a sports car to the max 600 hp the current system allows and then being upset that it doesn't translate into the new max 900 hp build. Since this is a computer game forum, an even more clear example would be buying the GTX980 graphics card and then getting pissed off when its not equivalent to the GTX 1080 when the upgrade comes in.

You've got a bigger tree so stop thinking that all of your already elited mechs are the same thing as the new 91 mode mastery. This gives us MORE TO DO and it has some how turned into an insult simply because a basic tenant of the expansion is denied. Divide the return you get equally amongst the mechs you have as a starting point, then progress in the EXPANDED tree.

Also, Hastur, do you think the KDK-3 explosion is going to happen because of massive UAC or LBX cooldowns? I just wanted to know which is providing the more game-breaking 5% cooldown bonus so I can be prepared.

[KrocodockleTheBooBoxLoader-GetIn]

HXP being varient specific is completely disappointing and trash. Why would we want to come back and grind previously mastered mechs??? How on earth are new players supposed to enjoy this game when it takes them 6 months to spec their first mech?? You have a huge stable of mechs now why make the grind longer? Awful on you pgi