138 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

What if they did universal weapon skills like someone else suggested. But you have two or three special skills for each weapon type. They have to be pretty good. However you have to make a choice which you prefer. So your actually specializing and not just getting everything.

[Nesutizale]

Just a quick thought. What about if you spend a certain number of skillpoints in one weapon tree you get drawbacks in it too.
Like taking all cooldown and range skills in lasers would result in duration getting a negative instead of positiv value?
So someone who boats can't have everything in the skilltree without some drawbacks.

[burning wisky]

I like the idea of ​​the skilltree, but I miss a balance between mix loadouts and metabuilds laser,
Uac's or SRM's etc..
Mechs with one Weapongroup are in the advantage, because they can use their weapons full of skills
and also have skillpoints to improve their movement. (Double advantage ?!?).
What would be if the mix loadouts get some extra skillpoints, or if you skilled up ownly 1 weapongroup
you lose some points ?
In the future I see meta laser-, srm-, Uac mechs, with the system now.
( this is 1 Step but we need more.
- correct heat mathematics/
- overheatarea with more effects )

[Avarice1of2]

I have a mauler with 4 ac2 and 4 lrm 5 and 2 ll, I use it for long range support. Used to use lrm cooldown module with range and ac2 range. With the new skill tree I can not get all of that and still have my basic and elite quirks with the sensors I need. New skill tree favors me going brawler or lrm boat on it, cause I already have a uac boat. Used to use it to hammer anyone in the open, and then have the lrms drop on them once they got behind cover. Which then resulted in them going out into the open again, and I then regain lock or maintain it while I dakka away.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Avarice1of2, on 10 February 2017 - 06:19 AM, said:

I have a mauler with 4 ac2 and 4 lrm 5 and 2 ll, I use it for long range support. Used to use lrm cooldown module with range and ac2 range. With the new skill tree I can not get all of that and still have my basic and elite quirks with the sensors I need. New skill tree favors me going brawler or lrm boat on it, cause I already have a uac boat. Used to use it to hammer anyone in the open, and then have the lrms drop on them once they got behind cover. Which then resulted in them going out into the open again, and I then regain lock or maintain it while I dakka away.

This is the exact problem. Limiting variety by making alternative/personalised/non-meta builds worse, making many of their owners resign from using them, because they cannot "keep up" anymore. Basically all builds with 2 or more weapon types gets the shaft. Some will still be good enough, many will just be too weak to bother. Advantages of many separate weapon skill trees: 0.

Spoiler

Repeating myself here:
There should be only one weapon tree, with universal nodes that apply to all weapons: universal range nodes, universal cooldown nodes and universal "quality" (or "maintenance" or whatever) nodes that would improve weapon-specific aspects (lbx+srm+lrm spread, gauss charge time, MG CoF, uac jam chance). No customisation in having whole trees you won't ever need because you don't use those weapons. All these separate trees do is punish players making mixed builds for the very fact that they don't boat one weapon.

There is no other way. Any system where you actually must buy range and cooldown for two weapon types separately, no matter how many bandaids you put on it, will punish for not boating and/or be very prone to exploits.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 10 February 2017 - 06:52 AM.

[Curley GumboKiller Bradley]

SO the apply button does not work. How do I test my build?

[Nightmare1]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 10 February 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

This is the exact problem. Limiting variety by making alternative/personalised/non-meta builds worse, making many of their owners resign from using them, because they cannot "keep up" anymore. Basically all builds with 2 or more weapon types gets the shaft. Some will still be good enough, many will just be too weak to bother. Advantages of many separate weapon skill trees: 0.

Spoiler

Repeating myself here:
There should be only one weapon tree, with universal nodes that apply to all weapons: universal range nodes, universal cooldown nodes and universal "quality" (or "maintenance" or whatever) nodes that would improve weapon-specific aspects (lbx+srm+lrm spread, gauss charge time, MG CoF, uac jam chance). No customisation in having whole trees you won't ever need because you don't use those weapons. All these separate trees do is punish players making mixed builds for the very fact that they don't boat one weapon.

There is no other way. Any system where you actually must buy range and cooldown for two weapon types separately, no matter how many bandaids you put on it, will punish for not boating and/or be very prone to exploits.

This guy gets it!

Curley GumboKiller Bradley, on 10 February 2017 - 06:55 AM, said:

SO the apply button does not work. How do I test my build?

It works, you just have to use the correct XP. I made the same mistake for my first Mech, and used Mech XP to unlock the nodes instead of GXP. Since I didn't have enough Mech XP, I couldn't "Apply Changes," and had to go redo a lot of the skills.

Vid here:

[1453 R]

So....question.

Does the impact on mixed builds, which are typically mixed builds in order to take advantage of the different/complementary nature of their mixed-build-building, really matter?

In my experiences on the PTS, most of the weapon nodes were bunk. They're so weak that getting them is more of a Nice Bonus than an imperative gotta-do thang. This recently mentioned Mauler, for example:

4x AC/2
2x Large Laser
4x LRM-5

The complaint is "I can't max out my autocannons, my lasers, and my LRMs without also not being able to max out my everything-else". However, the playstyle given for the machine utilizes the five-packs for mostly supporting and harassing fire, whist the autocannons and large beamers are given as the primary weapons.

Does this 'Mech need maxed-out LRM nodes for its missiles to do their job? I would argue that the LRM nodes wouldn't really be all that impactful for this machine. More important would be supplementing the main-use weapon, which would be the AC/2s, and perhaps getting heat/burntime for the large lasers.

Does this mean someone with only a single weapon type gets "more" absolute-value benefit from weapon skills? Yes. But this Mauler has more options than the mono-weapon guy. This Mauler still has primary weapons which it will derive the most benefit from boosting, and unlike the mono-weapon guy it can engage with missiles indirectly at need, or supplement its main-weapon damage with its additional gear when and as it needs to. The fact that it's not a terribly good Mauler is kind of immaterial - weapon skills being the way they are is not why this guy's Mauler is sub-optimal.

Weapon skill bonuses are really, really weak right now, with a small handful of exceptions. Yeah, the skill system as a whole is built more towards forcing players to max entire trees rather than allowing them to mix up a blend of bonuses to suit their tastes, but that has nothing to do with weapon-specific trees and everything to do with the core design of the system and how hopelessly useless individual skill nodes are.

Mixed builds will almost always have a primary weapon they would benefit most from focusing on, and would indeed benefit from focusing on almost as much as Damn Dirty Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Meta-Humping Boatmonster build everyone seems to think is literally the worst thing in existence since Stalin. What the mixed guy loses in perceived point efficiency he's supposed to gain back in the additional options his extra weapons give him. If that's not the case, then there's a different point to be argued here. Not "let's homogenize the already homogenous and somewhat boring skill tree even further because I can't run a 'Mech with an AC/5, an SRM-4, and LRM-10, two medium lasers, a medium pulse laser, a flamer and three machine guns and equally skill up all its stuff!"

Edited by 1453 R, 10 February 2017 - 07:28 AM.

[Nightmare1]

1453 R, on 10 February 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

So....question.

Does the impact on mixed builds, which are typically mixed builds in order to take advantage of the different/complementary nature of their mixed-build-building, really matter?

In my experiences on the PTS, most of the weapon nodes were bunk. They're so weak that getting them is more of a Nice Bonus than an imperative gotta-do thang. This recently mentioned Mauler, for example:

4x AC/2
2x Large Laser
4x LRM-5

The complaint is "I can't max out my autocannons, my lasers, and my LRMs without also not being able to max out my everything-else". However, the playstyle given for the machine utilizes the five-packs for mostly supporting and harassing fire, whist the autocannons and large beamers are given as the primary weapons.

Does this 'Mech need maxed-out LRM nodes for its missiles to do their job? I would argue that the LRM nodes wouldn't really be all that impactful for this machine. More important would be supplementing the main-use weapon, which would be the AC/2s, and perhaps getting heat/burntime for the large lasers.

Does this mean someone with only a single weapon type gets "more" absolute-value benefit from weapon skills? Yes. But this Mauler has more options than the mono-weapon guy. This Mauler still has primary weapons which it will derive the most benefit from boosting, and unlike the mono-weapon guy it can engage with missiles indirectly at need, or supplement its main-weapon damage with its additional gear when and as it needs to. The fact that it's not a terribly good Mauler is kind of immaterial - weapon skills being the way they are is not why this guy's Mauler is sub-optimal.

Weapon skill bonuses are really, really weak right now, with a small handful of exceptions. Yeah, the skill system as a whole is built more towards forcing players to max entire trees rather than allowing them to mix up a blend of bonuses to suit their tastes, but that has nothing to do with weapon-specific trees and everything to do with the core design of the system and how hopelessly useless individual skill nodes are.

Mixed builds will almost always have a primary weapon they would benefit most from focusing on, and would indeed benefit from focusing on almost as much as Damn Dirty Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Meta-Humping Boatmonster build everyone seems to think is literally the worst thing in existence since Stalin. What the mixed guy loses in perceived point efficiency he's supposed to gain back in the additional options his extra weapons give him. If that's not the case, then there's a different point to be argued here. Not "let's homogenize the already homogenous and somewhat boring skill tree even further because I can't run a 'Mech with an AC/5, an SRM-4, and LRM-10, two medium lasers, a medium pulse laser, a flamer and three machine guns and equally skill up all its stuff!"

If we're pretending that the mixed build Mauler can beat a mono-weapon meta Mech in a straight up fight, then can I also pretend to be Clint Eastwood?

Just sayin'...

Let's face it, mixed builds are not min/maxed which is why they are inferior to meta Mechs. The skill tree should be relatively impartial and should not penalize players for running mixed Mechs. The game already penalizes them enough as it is, so why should the skill tree jump on top of the dog pile too?

As for your last bit, nobody is arguing for that many weapons. All we're doing, is asking that PGI give us more than just one or two options. As it stands, nobody on the PTS is running more than two weapon systems, and most are trying to only run one.

Is that really what we want this game to be? A single-click mode? It's bad enough already, but at least the option to run mixed builds still exists. This skill tree will kill them entirely though.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 10 February 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

So....question.

Does the impact on mixed builds, which are typically mixed builds in order to take advantage of the different/complementary nature of their mixed-build-building, really matter?

In my experiences on the PTS, most of the weapon nodes were bunk. They're so weak that getting them is more of a Nice Bonus than an imperative gotta-do thang. This recently mentioned Mauler, for example:

4x AC/2
2x Large Laser
4x LRM-5

The complaint is "I can't max out my autocannons, my lasers, and my LRMs without also not being able to max out my everything-else". However, the playstyle given for the machine utilizes the five-packs for mostly supporting and harassing fire, whist the autocannons and large beamers are given as the primary weapons.

Does this 'Mech need maxed-out LRM nodes for its missiles to do their job? I would argue that the LRM nodes wouldn't really be all that impactful for this machine. More important would be supplementing the main-use weapon, which would be the AC/2s, and perhaps getting heat/burntime for the large lasers.

Does this mean someone with only a single weapon type gets "more" absolute-value benefit from weapon skills? Yes. But this Mauler has more options than the mono-weapon guy. This Mauler still has primary weapons which it will derive the most benefit from boosting, and unlike the mono-weapon guy it can engage with missiles indirectly at need, or supplement its main-weapon damage with its additional gear when and as it needs to. The fact that it's not a terribly good Mauler is kind of immaterial - weapon skills being the way they are is not why this guy's Mauler is sub-optimal.

Weapon skill bonuses are really, really weak right now, with a small handful of exceptions. Yeah, the skill system as a whole is built more towards forcing players to max entire trees rather than allowing them to mix up a blend of bonuses to suit their tastes, but that has nothing to do with weapon-specific trees and everything to do with the core design of the system and how hopelessly useless individual skill nodes are.

Mixed builds will almost always have a primary weapon they would benefit most from focusing on, and would indeed benefit from focusing on almost as much as Damn Dirty Evil Cheating Baby-Eating Meta-Humping Boatmonster build everyone seems to think is literally the worst thing in existence since Stalin. What the mixed guy loses in perceived point efficiency he's supposed to gain back in the additional options his extra weapons give him. If that's not the case, then there's a different point to be argued here. Not "let's homogenize the already homogenous and somewhat boring skill tree even further because I can't run a 'Mech with an AC/5, an SRM-4, and LRM-10, two medium lasers, a medium pulse laser, a flamer and three machine guns and equally skill up all its stuff!"

This has actually been a big point of my argument. Niche/backup weapons don't really gain much from the weapon nodes, the bonuses are pretty small anyway, for how often you are going to use those weapons or how much of your total firepower they make up.

The bigger issue is when you compare a mech with one type of weapon and a mech with two primary weapons, thats when things are really noticed, because both of those weapons are your bread and butter, so you really want all the skills you can get. I usually forgo the 5% cooldown on energy weapons in that case to save skill points, as that's only a marginal gain and also runs hotter.

Wintersdark, on 09 February 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

What I've found personally (and certainly with only minor testing, nothing exhaustive) is that we've got lots of skill points, and it's pretty damn easy to take two weapon trees. Even easier if you're not taking ALL the skills in a given tree.

In fact, while good for this, if anything it's kind of like you don't have to make sacrifices much at all. Somewhat, but not a lot. But as a result, there's no forced boating.

The big change I noticed is on one weapon builds, I had full seismic and some radar derp. On two weapon builds I completely ignored the sensors tree. That's basically how it boiled down for me. Maybe some extra upper agility too, but I still had pretty much all of the operations tree and lower agility and durability. If I had a third or 4th weapon I probably would ignore it in the skill tree completely. not worth it.

[Orville Righteous]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

Another note, this is the same situation with the current module system.

Ok, I've graduated to your line of thinking. It doesn't seem that bad to skill up two different weapon systems in the new system (Pulse Lasers and Lasers, PPCs and Lasers, Lasers and SRMs, Ultra Auto-cannon and Laser). I'd have to make a trade off to support three different weapon types in the old system, and it's pretty much the same in the new system.

I really like the added variety you get with the new weapon skills, such as the velocity increases, spread decreases, etc. My only options were range and cool down in the old system. I have more options in the new system.

Overall, I'm liking the Skill Trees. The C-Bill cost is kind of shocking, but I think that's because I'm used to moving modules around. It's going to be nice not having to track down modules anymore. I'm probably only going to skill up a few mechs at first, depending on how many C-bills I end up getting back from the modules I've purchased.

[TorinZ]

I agree with you 1453 R. This system provides options to level, as a player you would have to choose what you want skill up and what not to. The mauler example should just work on their primary weapon to boost, and maybe a few points in for a secondary and still be able to boost a lot of the other trees and come out quite well. A player could even decide that the 4 AC2's don't really need a lot since their ROF and Range is pretty decent to begin with, and then max out the Laser tree to boost the Large Lasers.

I keep seeing a lot of complaints around 3+ weapon systems not working out in this new system. But, how are they working out in the current system? You can only use 2-3 Weapon Modules in Live, so, how is the new system worse?

I personally don't use more than 2 weapon classes in most cases, the few that I do, the extra classes are not what I would want to boost any as they are more situational for just some extra damage. In the new system I have been pleased on what I was able to get with my builds and I have boosted 2 different weapon trees to get there. They may not be 100% completed trees, I chose what was best for my play style and still making sure I have points in Defense and Mobility, etc.

My biggest issue with the new system is around costs,I think the CBill cost should be cheaper. And would prefer the HXP to be handled differently. But otherwise, I have liked having the choice to build out how I like.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 10 February 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

This skill tree will kill them entirely though.

I still would dispute this. The skill tree doesn't penalize mixed builds any more than the module system does. Kind of like how the module system gives you a choice of a third weapon module or a mech module. Thats similar to whats going on here. Not saying that that makes it right or that one-weapon builds arent favored over two weapon builds in the skill tree, but to say that this will kill them entirely I disagree with.

If anything, how fast weapons and equipment get destroyed on the PTS is going to hurt them a lot more.

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 February 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

This has actually been a big point of my argument. Niche/backup weapons don't really gain much from the weapon nodes, the bonuses are pretty small anyway, for how often you are going to use those weapons or how much of your total firepower they make up.

The bigger issue is when you compare a mech with one type of weapon and a mech with two primary weapons, thats when things are really noticed, because both of those weapons are your bread and butter, so you really want all the skills you can get. I usually forgo the 5% cooldown on energy weapons in that case to save skill points, as that's only a marginal gain and also runs hotter.

Kinda, yeah. Things like that Mauler build? Skill the autocannons, skill up the lasers some (Duration nodes are ridiculously easy to splash into, all lined up nice and neat for five lousy points), ignore the LRMs because they're supplementary weapons and don't need skill nodes to do their job, and go. It's a moshpit build, but even then.

Something like a cSPL/cSRM Timber Wolf brawler, though? Yeah, I can see where skilling that up would hurt. But by the same token, you get skilled-up SRMs and skilled-up pulse lasers, which gives you more options than just one or the other. And like you said, some skill nodes in either tree aren't essential (especially with heat build-up concerns). They give you so bloody many points that it's not really difficult to get enough scraped together to do well with dual weapons, and once you get into 3+ weapons you're getting into builds where there's a clear 'Primary' weapon that should be the focus of your skillgrimage efforts.

If your build's so scattered and unfocused that you have, say, 4+ weapon systems and no clear idea of which one is your 'primary' weapon? Well, first of all, clean up your build. And second of all, the skill trees are not so narrow as all that. Say you've got a classic Thunderbolt, with a large laser, a bunch of medium lasers, some machine guns, and some LRMs. That build still only needs two trees - standard lasers, which covers the large and the mediums, and LRM nodes. It's kinda difficult to build a machine that absolutely needs nodes from three different trees, and if it does, again - clean up your build, or deal with the fact that a suboptimal loadout is going to be suboptimal.

The entire idea with the skill tree is to force the player to make choices. You don't get to have every weapon in the game and also full quirks for every weapon in the game and also full quirks for everything else. No. Bad panda.

Gas Guzzler, on 10 February 2017 - 08:26 AM, said:

...
If anything, how fast weapons and equipment get destroyed on the PTS is going to hurt them a lot more.

I haven't had a lot of time in the Pits yet due to previous obligations (and also agonizingly long match wait times) to experience it, but I'll admit - I'm as interested in seeing how this new internal/component health thing works out as I am in the Skilltree itself. BattleTech was always supposed to be about the gradual destruction of your machine one bit at a time, but MWO is (currently) a game about either Giga Drilling out a CT or just slicing entire regions of 'Mech off. I kinda like the idea of internal crits being more frequent and noticeable a part of the game, and in this case I can agree with Piranha wanting to more-or-less normalize 'per slot' health totals across both tech bases. "One crit slot ~= 3-5 health, regardless of what's in it", for example, sounds cool to me.

One of my games, for example, saw my Shadow Cat losing its RT-mounted laser early in the match to a stray crit, which left me unarmed completely when the arms got taken off wholesale. It sucked in the best possible way. Seems like it'll encourage spreading weapons out more and force players into making decisions on what to sacrifice when in order to preserve their gear. Might even make head-mounted weapons more valuable as a much more reliable last-ditch sidearm, if crits start being really prevalent. FUN TYMEZ.

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 10 February 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

I haven't had a lot of time in the Pits yet due to previous obligations (and also agonizingly long match wait times) to experience it, but I'll admit - I'm as interested in seeing how this new internal/component health thing works out as I am in the Skilltree itself. BattleTech was always supposed to be about the gradual destruction of your machine one bit at a time, but MWO is (currently) a game about either Giga Drilling out a CT or just slicing entire regions of 'Mech off. I kinda like the idea of internal crits being more frequent and noticeable a part of the game, and in this case I can agree with Piranha wanting to more-or-less normalize 'per slot' health totals across both tech bases. "One crit slot ~= 3-5 health, regardless of what's in it", for example, sounds cool to me.

One of my games, for example, saw my Shadow Cat losing its RT-mounted laser early in the match to a stray crit, which left me unarmed completely when the arms got taken off wholesale. It sucked in the best possible way. Seems like it'll encourage spreading weapons out more and force players into making decisions on what to sacrifice when in order to preserve their gear. Might even make head-mounted weapons more valuable as a much more reliable last-ditch sidearm, if crits start being really prevalent. FUN TYMEZ.

Spreading weapons out is great for omni-mechs that do it anyway (your Shadow Cat is basically forced to do that...). But Battlemechs don't always have that option.

Multiple times, once my armor was penetrated, I would lose TWO weapons. It's extremely frustrating, and I fail how to see it adds "fun" to the game.

1453 R, on 10 February 2017 - 08:53 AM, said:

Kinda, yeah. Things like that Mauler build? Skill the autocannons, skill up the lasers some (Duration nodes are ridiculously easy to splash into, all lined up nice and neat for five lousy points), ignore the LRMs because they're supplementary weapons and don't need skill nodes to do their job, and go. It's a moshpit build, but even then.

Something like a cSPL/cSRM Timber Wolf brawler, though? Yeah, I can see where skilling that up would hurt. But by the same token, you get skilled-up SRMs and skilled-up pulse lasers, which gives you more options than just one or the other. And like you said, some skill nodes in either tree aren't essential (especially with heat build-up concerns). They give you so bloody many points that it's not really difficult to get enough scraped together to do well with dual weapons, and once you get into 3+ weapons you're getting into builds where there's a clear 'Primary' weapon that should be the focus of your skillgrimage efforts.

If your build's so scattered and unfocused that you have, say, 4+ weapon systems and no clear idea of which one is your 'primary' weapon? Well, first of all, clean up your build. And second of all, the skill trees are not so narrow as all that. Say you've got a classic Thunderbolt, with a large laser, a bunch of medium lasers, some machine guns, and some LRMs. That build still only needs two trees - standard lasers, which covers the large and the mediums, and LRM nodes. It's kinda difficult to build a machine that absolutely needs nodes from three different trees, and if it does, again - clean up your build, or deal with the fact that a suboptimal loadout is going to be suboptimal.

The entire idea with the skill tree is to force the player to make choices. You don't get to have every weapon in the game and also full quirks for every weapon in the game and also full quirks for everything else. No. Bad panda.

Yeah I agree, and will restate that I think the bigger imbalance is probably between single weapon boats and 2 weapon loadouts.

[The Pug Commander]

Honestly boating is not that big of an issue. How many mechs can boat well? Not very many if you count All mechs. How many people boat now? Go die first in your game and count. Maybe one or two. Boating is not nearly as popular now as it was before Ghost heat. So I think people are just overacting.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 February 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

The big change I noticed is on one weapon builds, I had full seismic and some radar derp. On two weapon builds I completely ignored the sensors tree. That's basically how it boiled down for me. Maybe some extra upper agility too, but I still had pretty much all of the operations tree and lower agility and durability. If I had a third or 4th weapon I probably would ignore it in the skill tree completely. not worth it.

I can see that. To be honest, though, that's just not a major push for me to consider going single-weapon.

There are many gains to using two different weapon types. It's more complex when playing, obviously, but we're not talking rocket science here. On the other hand, you can mix things like low-heat/high tonnage ballistics with low-tonnage/high heat lasers, and get more out of the combination than you would have out of just using one or the other.

And really, NOT getting weapon skills for some of your weapons isn't a deal-breaker. Cooldown? 5 skill points for 5% is arguably a waste of time. Look at the Gauss tree? If I were building a Gauss+ERLaser build, I'd get laser duration and heat reduction only, and not touch Gauss unless I had spare points I didn't know what else to do with. Not that they're bad, but they're extremely unlikely to be particularly significant.

[rook]

I see going from 1 to 2 primary weapons as a big problem; and I totally agree that you might need to just start disregarding any 3rd or 4th weapons system on the frankenmechs that you run. The extra percentage just doesn't justify the cost.

I see the need to separate the weapon node points from the everything else node points, though not sure if there would be issues with that.

[Weeny Machine]

I'd like the new skill trees. However, the boating is definetly a problem. Pure boats can get extra heat dissipation for ALL their weapons plus have more skill points to spend in other trees.

The problem which ailed modules was transported to the new skill tree.

Just look at the loyalty Wolverine. How in the world could it even come close to other boating Volvos

[Gas Guzzler]

Bush Hopper, on 10 February 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

I'd like the new skill trees. However, the boating is definetly a problem. Pure boats can get extra heat dissipation for ALL their weapons plus have more skill points to spend in other trees.

The problem which ailed modules was transported to the new skill tree.

Just look at the loyalty Wolverine. How in the world could it even come close to other boating Volvos

The loyalty wolverine? That has one laser? Focus on ballistic cooldown and velocity, and SRM cooldown/spread. The 4% heat gen is pretty insignificant on your one laser...

And 4% heat in general is VERY small! I wouldn't lose sleep over it, especially when the aggregate heat from each weapon group is what 3-5 per shot? Its not like a Clan laser boat that is pushing out 50 heat per shot.