138 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

Multiple weapons being weaker is all the more reason for a change in the system. Just because the module system promoted it doesn't mean this one should too. What's the disadvantage to changing it? Boaters don't get to have the extra points to play with? That really doesn't make me want to see it stay this way.

Well, you are basically saying "this makes my not optimal, poorly made build less optimal than a more optimal build so its bad". Its like if you know your build is bad, why use it?

And still... I have yet to see a frankenmech that REALLY misses out on those skill bonuses.

The point to change it is to allow players to specialize whatever mech they want to a specific role. A SPECIFIC role, not a "I can do everything but just not that well" role. Not to mention, you have the freedom to choose exactly what you want to bring.

I think the problem is very overstated, and its likely not going to have a negative impact on gameplay. There are already positive impacts. Some IS mechs got some serious buffs. Clans did too, so some of their node values need adjusting, but that shows promise.

[MechaBattler]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Well, you are basically saying "this makes my not optimal, poorly made build less optimal than a more optimal build so its bad". Its like if you know your build is bad, why use it?

And still... I have yet to see a frankenmech that REALLY misses out on those skill bonuses.

The point to change it is to allow players to specialize whatever mech they want to a specific role. A SPECIFIC role, not a "I can do everything but just not that well" role. Not to mention, you have the freedom to choose exactly what you want to bring.

I think the problem is very overstated, and its likely not going to have a negative impact on gameplay. There are already positive impacts. Some IS mechs got some serious buffs. Clans did too, so some of their node values need adjusting, but that shows promise.

So just screw mechs like the wolverine? In particular the ones with all three hard points. And in too few a number to take advantage of boating

You're used to how the current game promotes boating. So of course anything that promotes boating is good. If it doesn't directly take away from boating in regards to weapon values, then I don't why you're defending a change. Clearly it's not just about weapon values for boating, it's about how many extra points you can wring out. While mocking anyone that uses a "sub-optimal" build. Git gud,rite?

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

So just screw mechs like the wolverine? In particular the ones with all three hard points. And in too few a number to take advantage of boating

You're used to how the current game promotes boating. So of course anything that promotes boating is good. If it doesn't directly take away from boating in regards to weapon values, then I don't why you're defending a change. Clearly it's not just about weapon values for boating, it's about how many extra points you can wring out. While mocking anyone that uses a "sub-optimal" build. Git gud,rite?

Someone else mentioned the Wolverine. Tell me the build!!

When I hear Wolverine, I think:
3 LPLs, 2 MLs
3 SRM6 w/art and 3 MLs
2 AC5s
Yeah, there are some builds with ballistics and missiles and ONE energy hardpoint. Pretty obvious what to do with that...

[Almond Brown]

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

So just screw mechs like the wolverine? In particular the ones with all three hard points. And in too few a number to take advantage of boating

You're used to how the current game promotes boating. So of course anything that promotes boating is good. If it doesn't directly take away from boating in regards to weapon values, then I don't why you're defending a change. Clearly it's not just about weapon values for boating, it's about how many extra points you can wring out. While mocking anyone that uses a "sub-optimal" build. Git gud,rite?

The question is, how many "Wolverine builds" would you take, that contain all 3 weapons systems, into any non-Pug based Team Match and feel like you were running the best of the best in that weight class under the old system?

There is no system that will ever be able to "prevent" boating or prevent the inevitable Meta builds based on the Mech selection currently available. To think the new Skills system would outright eliminate either of those things is rather naive really.

[MechaBattler]

Nobody is saying to penalize boating. You just shouldn't get even more for boating than you already do. The way the skill system is now, you do however get penalized for taking more than one weapon type. That's my problem. Boating would still be dominant, but at least those with mixed weapons won't get more penalized.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:10 PM, said:

I have seen several concerns regarding how the skill tree encourages boating. One thing some may not be considering, is if you are purely boating, you have to contend with Ghost Heat, which is definitely a downside.

Another note, this is the same situation with the current module system.

If the skill point pool is lowered, I could see this being more of an issue, but as is I think its not bad.

*Rolls eyes*

Right, because Ghost Heat is so effective at countering boating right now, right?

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

Multiple weapons being weaker is all the more reason for a change in the system. Just because the module system promoted it doesn't mean this one should too. What's the disadvantage to changing it? Boaters don't get to have the extra points to play with? That really doesn't make me want to see it stay this way.

And not just that it encourages it, it actively forces you to do so. In my PTS video, I showed how, in order to get your Mech's base stats back to where they were, you wind up using most of your nodes. Then, you don't have enough left to unlock nodes for more than one weapon system. The result is boating.

Not a single PTS match I played featured Mechs with more than two weapon systems. About 80% of the Mechs that I encountered had a single system. Some, like the Atlas, have to run two systems, but anything that could only ran one.

That's the problem we now face. With the current system, boating is encouraged, but you can still freestyle and enjoy yourself. With the new system, freestyle is effectively dead.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

*Rolls eyes*

Right, because Ghost Heat is so effective at countering boating right now, right?



And not just that it encourages it, it actively forces you to do so. In my PTS video, I showed how, in order to get your Mech's base stats back to where they were, you wind up using most of your nodes. Then, you don't have enough left to unlock nodes for more than one weapon system. The result is boating.

Not a single PTS match I played featured Mechs with more than two weapon systems. About 80% of the Mechs that I encountered had a single system. Some, like the Atlas, have to run two systems, but anything that could only ran one.

That's the problem we now face. With the current system, boating is encouraged, but you can still freestyle and enjoy yourself. With the new system, freestyle is effectively dead.

*rolls eyes* if it weren't for ghost heat you would see more boating, it would be all alpha LPLs or alpha quad PPCs.

Even if you do take more than 2 weapon groups, how much benefit are you actually getting from skilling up your 2 back up medium lasers, or your single LRM10? Those skills would be wasted anyway. Its making a mountain out of an ant hill. I have yet to hear of a mixed build that is really missing out because of the skill tree. No, losing 10% range on your 2 medium lasers is not "missing out".

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Someone else mentioned the Wolverine. Tell me the build!!

When I hear Wolverine, I think:
3 LPLs, 2 MLs
3 SRM6 w/art and 3 MLs
2 AC5s
Yeah, there are some builds with ballistics and missiles and ONE energy hardpoint. Pretty obvious what to do with that...

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Nobody is saying to penalize boating. You just shouldn't get even more for boating than you already do. The way the skill system is now, you do however get penalized for taking more than one weapon type. That's my problem. Boating would still be dominant, but at least those with mixed weapons won't get more penalized.

You still haven't provided me with a WVR build where this is an issue.

[Nightmare1]

MechaBattler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Nobody is saying to penalize boating. You just shouldn't get even more for boating than you already do. The way the skill system is now, you do however get penalized for taking more than one weapon type. That's my problem. Boating would still be dominant, but at least those with mixed weapons won't get more penalized.

BanditB17 and I were chatting about this while dropping in the PTS. Our idea, was that you get bonus nodes for taking more than one system.

Let's say you get 91 nodes. You equip three weapon systems (I mean distinct types with regard to the available skill trees: AC versus UAV versus Pulse laser versus LRM versus etc.) on your Mech. As a bonus, PGI gives you between 5 and 10 more nodes (100 total now, max) to help you balance your loadout against the boats.

Currently, with 91 nodes, I'm finding that you only get to use about 10 to level your weapon system (or systems if you run two weapon systems). The result is that you can really only effectively boat. However, if you gained somewhere between 5 and 9 bonus nodes for equipping a third system, then you would have enough nodes to partially set-up those systems. You'd still have one, well-developed weapon, but the other two would be slightly developed so that you aren't running with junk weapons.

The problem, then, would be balancing how many bonus nodes to give. Personally, I think that 5 is a good number for each weapon system past two (i.e. - 3 gets 5, 4 gets another 5, etc.). I wouldn't award more than 9 or 10 total though. That means that, should you run a UAC with pulse lasers and an SRM system, you would get 5 bonus nodes to use. Now, let's say you ran a Mech with LRMs, SRMs, Lasers, and Pulse Lasers. That would give you 10 bonus nodes to use.

One stipulation I would make, is that bonus nodes can only be used on weapons.

[MovinTarget]

Could we have diminishing returns on the higher skills? Simply put, sure you *could* max out your SRM cooldown, but you'd get more bang for your buck putting those points in a different category, encouraging more varied loadouts and even more points going into non-weapon skills...

This way one-trick mechs can still be specialists but it behooves your to spread your points if you have the hardpoints...

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

BanditB17 and I were chatting about this while dropping in the PTS. Our idea, was that you get bonus nodes for taking more than one system.

Let's say you get 91 nodes. You equip three weapon systems (I mean distinct types with regard to the available skill trees: AC versus UAV versus Pulse laser versus LRM versus etc.) on your Mech. As a bonus, PGI gives you between 5 and 10 more nodes (100 total now, max) to help you balance your loadout against the boats.

Currently, with 91 nodes, I'm finding that you only get to use about 10 to level your weapon system (or systems if you run two weapon systems). The result is that you can really only effectively boat. However, if you gained somewhere between 5 and 9 bonus nodes for equipping a third system, then you would have enough nodes to partially set-up those systems. You'd still have one, well-developed weapon, but the other two would be slightly developed so that you aren't running with junk weapons.

The problem, then, would be balancing how many bonus nodes to give. Personally, I think that 5 is a good number for each weapon system past two (i.e. - 3 gets 5, 4 gets another 5, etc.). I wouldn't award more than 9 or 10 total though. That means that, should you run a UAC with pulse lasers and an SRM system, you would get 5 bonus nodes to use. Now, let's say you ran a Mech with LRMs, SRMs, Lasers, and Pulse Lasers. That would give you 10 bonus nodes to use.

One stipulation I would make, is that bonus nodes can only be used on weapons.

I wouldn't be opposed to this proposal for sure!

One note, only 10 weapon skill nodes? I was using quite a bit more than that. (Radar dep is not a critical node set.., and upper torso isn't worth it)

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

*rolls eyes* if it weren't for ghost heat you would see more boating, it would be all alpha LPLs or alpha quad PPCs.

Even if you do take more than 2 weapon groups, how much benefit are you actually getting from skilling up your 2 back up medium lasers, or your single LRM10? Those skills would be wasted anyway. Its making a mountain out of an ant hill. I have yet to hear of a mixed build that is really missing out because of the skill tree. No, losing 10% range on your 2 medium lasers is not "missing out".

This is why I don't like meta tryhards. They absolutely don't care about anyone or anything else aside from their precious little boating meta builds.

As for the quad weapons you fear so much, they are here despite boating. People just use weapon groups to get around them. My quad CLPL KDK laughs at PGI's Ghost Heat and slaughters whatever it wants irrespective of these "boating penalties." The same goes for my quad CERPPC Warhawk.

Ghost Heat doesn't do much for us right now other than provide a minor speed bump to boaters, so pretending that it will act as a limiter to boating with the new skill tree is laughably delusional.

As for the backup MLs, yes, that is important, thank you very much. I have had them come through for me far too many times to naively discount them.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

This is why I don't like meta tryhards. They absolutely don't care about anyone or anything else aside from their precious little boating meta builds.

As for the quad weapons you fear so much, they are here despite boating. People just use weapon groups to get around them. My quad CLPL KDK laughs at PGI's Ghost Heat and slaughters whatever it wants irrespective of these "boating penalties." The same goes for my quad CERPPC Warhawk.

Ghost Heat doesn't do much for us right now other than provide a minor speed bump to boaters, so pretending that it will act as a limiter to boating with the new skill tree is laughably delusional.

As for the backup MLs, yes, that is important, thank you very much. I have had them come through for me far too many times to naively discount them.

My precious little boating meta builds? Assumptions much? I barely ever bring pure boats in quick play, so take your assumptions and shove them you-know-where.

They may function in their back up role, but as a whole the improvements you get from skilling up a couple medium lasers are marginal at best, and aren't worth it, objectively speaking.

And no, you don't circumvent ghost heat with your Quad ER PPC Warhawk, because you would shut down every shot. Nice try though.


I like your proposal for giving bonus weapon skill points when you take multiple weapon types though. That sounds good to me.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 February 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

I wouldn't be opposed to this proposal for sure!

One note, only 10 weapon skill nodes? I was using quite a bit more than that. (Radar dep is not a critical node set.., and upper torso isn't worth it)

I meant in addition to the 91 we already have. So, let's say you spend your 80 nodes on your Mech abilities and have 11 left for weapons. You run three distinct systems, so you get 5 bonus nodes. That gives you a total of 11 generic nodes, and 5 bonus "weapon" nodes to use on your weapon skills. If you run four distinct systems, then you would have 11 general nodes, and 10 "weapon" nodes.

You don't often see Mechs with more than 4 distinct systems, even now. That, plus the potential for abuse is why I recommend capping it at 10 bonus nodes.

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

They may function in their back up role, but as a whole the improvements you get from skilling up a couple medium lasers are marginal at best, and aren't worth it, objectively speaking.

And no, you don't circumvent ghost heat with your Quad ER PPC Warhawk, because you would shut down every shot. Nice try though.


I like your proposal for giving bonus weapon skill points when you take multiple weapon types though. That sounds good to me.

Ghost Heat is to prevent you from alpha striking a single component with too much damage. It does nothing to prevent you from putting that same damage value into one component a half second apart though. That's what macro users do with dakka. With my CERPPCs, I trigger my shots just far enough apart to avoid Ghost Heat, but I can still put every point of damage into one component, and I am still boating very effectively. Ghost Heat's attempt to discourage boating fails because of this.

Shoot, I run a 7 MPL TDR without any problems too, despite the threat of Ghost Heat. You just trigger your shots right and you can get away with all the boating you want.

Edit: With the new, smaller skills, yes, bonuses to my MLs are marginal. However, every little bit helps when you find yourself with your back to the wall.

Edited by Nightmare1, 09 February 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

I meant in addition to the 91 we already have. So, let's say you spend your 80 nodes on your Mech abilities and have 11 left for weapons. You run three distinct systems, so you get 5 bonus nodes. That gives you a total of 11 generic nodes, and 5 bonus "weapon" nodes to use on your weapon skills. If you run four distinct systems, then you would have 11 general nodes, and 10 "weapon" nodes.

You don't often see Mechs with more than 4 distinct systems, even now. That, plus the potential for abuse is why I recommend capping it at 10 bonus nodes.

I meant in the current system, I end up having room for more than 10 weapon nodes.

Wasn't talking about the bonus proposal, just saying I have been able to allocate significantly more than 10 nodes to weapons on the PTS last night.

[Nightmare1]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2017 - 10:51 AM, said:

I meant in the current system, I end up having room for more than 10 weapon nodes.

Wasn't talking about the bonus proposal, just saying I have been able to allocate significantly more than 10 nodes to weapons on the PTS last night.

I think it probably depends on the Mech. The ones I tested last night, had significant or full quirk removal, so I had to invest heavily in the Mobility and Survival trees in order to get the base stats back to where they needed to be. Once I did that, I didn't have much left to spend on weapons.

[TorinZ]

I also don't think a 2 weapon class system will come out that bad. I have a few mechs that have more systems, but my 3rd system is usually just thrown on and not something I would rely on for the majority of the fight. For the 2 weapon class system, you will have to make some choices for sure, what is worth it. But in my mind, its kind of the point with how they built out the system. There is a small amount of give and take here where you need to really think about, what's important, what you absolutely want, and what is just a nice to have but can do without. For people talking about back up weapons- are they truly backups? Or do you feel they are important enough to put some points into. And there is the Choice. You get to decide if they are worth putting points in over something else. The system should not let you have everything.

I saw someone post in another thread that now everyone will have Seismic!! The few builds I worked on last night, Seismic was one skill I decided I could do without. I prefer to try to know what's going on around me. Seismic usually would just confirm what I already knew. Of course, I am not a sniper or anything, and usually stay mobile. So for me, it was less value for a skill, so points were moved to other skills I felt more valuable to my play style. I mean, I could have put a point in it, but would 1 point be enough, who knows. Of course, this is not to say I wouldn't make a different choice on another mech. Like say the Assassin when it's released. I may skill out for SRMs, and want full Seismic to setup ambushes from behind cover, to know when the foe is set for the trap. This is something that I like about the new system. You can build it to the mech and how it will play for its role. Not the boring basic/expert/master we have today that all mechs would have.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Ghost Heat is to prevent you from alpha striking a single component with too much damage. It does nothing to prevent you from putting that same damage value into one component a half second apart though. That's what macro users do with dakka. With my CERPPCs, I trigger my shots just far enough apart to avoid Ghost Heat, but I can still put every point of damage into one component, and I am still boating very effectively. Ghost Heat's attempt to discourage boating fails because of this.

Shoot, I run a 7 MPL TDR without any problems too, despite the threat of Ghost Heat. You just trigger your shots right and you can get away with all the boating you want.

Edit: With the new, smaller skills, yes, bonuses to my MLs are marginal. However, every little bit helps when you find yourself with your back to the wall.

With the time between you can spread the damage though. It also almost doubles the effective duration of IS LPLs. Also, for stationary targets you have the option of alphaing different weapon systems and doing more damage then you would be able to boating and having to do the .5 second delay.

Also, there are no macros that help with dakka unless you are talking about troll AC2 builds... which don't help them, they are just annoying.

So.. how many MLs do you have on this hypothetical build and what are your other weapon systems? Just trying to understand what the role of the MLs is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nightmare1, on 09 February 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

One stipulation I would make, is that bonus nodes can only be used on weapons.

Which is why weapon related skill points should be separate entirely for generic skill points.

[Nesutizale]

Remove the weapons skills alltogether and give weapons "character".
Like and Luxor-D haveing less spread but shorter range while a Armstrong AC jams less but cost more....stuff like that.

[Pjwned]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 February 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

Yeah but there is no reasonable way to support super mixed builds like that.. even the module system had the same issue..

You could "support" it by not offering any skills for weapons at all, or re-doing the entire system so that every skill has a drawback.

And in case somebody says "well why not just scrap the entire skill tree then" my response is "I agree." My point here though is that there could still be a skill tree of some sort, just without any weapon skills at all, and it could still have some sort of reason to exist.