67 replies to this topic

[Padre Balistique]

SuperFunkTron, on 09 February 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Seeing as how these "Skills" are actually mostly "physical upgrades", some c-bill cost makes sense if we want to imagine that upgrades have to be made. I am up for a nominal cost, something in the 1-2 million range so that it is a rather small investment as opposed to scaring new players off behind an impossible grind when they are still just trying to find mechs that they like.

Maybe a compromise could be made where the first x nodes are purely XP costs and later nodes start costing c-bills, albeit a significantly smaller than what they have in the PTS right now.

That still comes with the onerous roadblock of hampering respecing to try out new builds or experimentation, which is one of the cornerstones of the game.

I can change the loadout in some of my mechs 10 times in a single night, between looking for something that works for me and just having silly fun. I dont want to be slapped with a 10-20 million dollar bill because I want to play pretty pretty princess with my giant robots.

[SuperFunkTron]

Padre Balistique, on 09 February 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

That still comes with the onerous roadblock of hampering respecing to try out new builds or experimentation, which is one of the cornerstones of the game.

I can change the loadout in some of my mechs 10 times in a single night, between looking for something that works for me and just having silly fun. I dont want to be slapped with a 10-20 million dollar bill because I want to play pretty pretty princess with my giant robots.

I personally believe that the nodes should be a one time purchase and that respecing should not cost as the initial invest was put in already. My single biggest concern is to get more players to the game and continue to keep playing. Specialization is a great way as it creates a space for roles to be effective. Making it accessible for new players and keeping customization alive are both really important and in all honesty, I'd rather have to a pay a little more cash for incoming mechs than scare off the potential new population of the game.

[Knighthawk26]

I agree that the c-bill costs for skills is way too high. This will frustrate some loyal players who will quit or reduce their involvement in the game. And new players are going to be frustrated that they cannot catch up in the skill trees for a LONG time.

New players are already at a disadvantage in "real skills" (learning to build and pilot a mech). Now the technical disadvantage they face will last much longer as well. That means feeling inferior a lot longer, getting frustrated with the game and giving up (or finding something else to play.

I think PGI was worried about the "glut" of c-bills that many of their older players were going to get from module refunds, etc. So they decided to build in something for them to spend those billions of c-bills on. But the end result will be more loyal players and new players feeling frustrated and quitting. I say, reduce the c-bill costs and let the older, loyal players have a billion c-bills in the bank, they will still need xp to gain more skills, they will still need to buy mech bays for new mechs, and I don't think they will "retire" because they have to many c-bills and are set for life.

[Knighthawk26]

Congrats to PGI on setting the respec cost low (25k per node). So when I decide to change the loadout on my mech, I can earn enough in one quick play drop to change several nodes and respec it.

And the greater control that we players will have to tweak our own mechs seems to be very positive and could add a lot of new options and diversity to the game.

[Cypherdrene]

136.5K EXP is way too high for new players, let alone the C-Bill cost!. Unless the GXP gain is just as high as Mech XP per match and C-Bill cost is reduced, this system will scare everyone from buyin new mechs or even try the game, making sales worse.

Sure, running servers isn't cheap, but scaring off new customers is no way of doing business.

[Padre Balistique]

Cypherdrene, on 09 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

136.5K EXP is way too high for new players, let alone the C-Bill cost!. Unless the GXP gain is just as high as Mech XP per match and C-Bill cost is reduced, this system will scare everyone from buyin new mechs or even try the game, making sales worse.

Sure, running servers isn't cheap, but scaring off new customers is no way of doing business.

Servers should be paid for by mechpacks, camo schemes and decals.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Eteokles81, on 09 February 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Another one, where do I convert historic XP of mechs I don't currently own?

I went an bought one I had Mastered and sold (I have done almost every Mech cause that what I did) and the Historic XP was there to transfer as soon as I repurchased it... all 57k of it.

[I Peed My Pants]

I did some numbers on this... ive got about 100 mechs, a number of modules which i share between them (pita though it may be). To get to part of where i am now (Just getting my most used modules for these mechs, and speed tweak) will take about 2-3 years at my current rate of play, and ive been playing since 2014.

Basic calcs on getting (part way) to where i am now:
9 modules (for srms, ppcs, acs and gauss) about 27m total cost for my 100 mechs.
speadtweek, 3 mechs and a bunch of matches
getting these mechs specced to the same level with the new system (taking an average of 1.5 modules per mech) about 130M.
add in speed tweak and that makes another 120m.

In the entire time ive played ive earned about 1B, across about 7000 matches. Assuming that about 2/3rds of my MC gets tied up in either mechs, mech upgrades (DHS etc) consumables and sold mechs, that makes for about 4300 matches, to get part of the way to where i am now.

this doesn't account for omnimechs either... as it appears likely i can no longer reconfig (and retain effectiveness) without spending MC.

Just what the hell are you thinking pgi? It'll cost me the same as the entire ammount ive earned in my entire time playing to fully spec every one of the mechs i currently own, something i could do now for probably about 20-30M (ie buying a few more modules). 20-30M vs 910M.

W. T. F.

Edited by I Peed My Pants, 10 February 2017 - 12:29 AM.

[Smokey2]

After taking time off for the better part of a year, I got the urge to play again. Then I saw what PGI is planning on doing and I said WHAT? I earned everything for my mechs with the rules that applied at the time. Now they say they're going to take it back and charge me more for it! NOT! That's like buying a new car with $1000 worth of options, then during the night, the dealer comes and takes them off. Then he tells you that you can have them back for $3000. The equipment is mine. I own it. My suggestion is to start a new process from this time forward. Not this "Bone Head" retroactive stunt they're trying to pull now. If PGI wants to refund anything, they can just refund the real money I spent on mech packs. I can just as easily find something else to do, like watch TV or maybe take a nap. My 3 cents.

[aGentleWarrior]

Smokey2, on 10 February 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

The equipment is mine. I own it. My suggestion is to start a new process from this time forward.

Well as in most MMO games very likely everything belongs to PGI, we just have licenses to use these virtual goods...
But yes, that is definitvely not a way to satisfy "customers".
Ans from what i've learned in the F2P business even the for free customers are important.
Without them less players, longer matchmaking, less atractiveness, less readiness for customers to spend money ...

[I Peed My Pants]

oh and another point, pgi is apparently giving back the xp for each mech... but the issue is it now takes cbills to get back to where we were. so everyone is going to be set back by this... by a few mill for each mech you have elited. got 50 mechs? well your gonna need about 100+mill to get back to where you are now, even if you dont use modules. Yippee.

Edited by I Peed My Pants, 10 February 2017 - 03:44 AM.

[Papa Smurf]

Some of you are spot on others it seems haven't even explored the ins and outs of this. I took the settings of a few of my favorite mechs and looked at their baseline with and without the quirks, which by the way many of you bought and paid for those mechs for the quirks. I tried to replicate my baseline build before models and skills and after with modules, that I had to spend insane hours to grind out but now are gone and I then did a comparison of the two.
I found that if you have played certain mechs and have the Xp stored up you can make the current mech just as good and in some cases even better. I will say in some cases because after the Feb 21st date any mech you currently love is gone. I played these mechs in the practice grounds and put them through torture heat over ride, shut downs, missile, energy, and ballistic exercises to test the old style and the current build.
What I found is that to achieve a baseline, not the mastered and modeled out mech that you currently play and love but a baseline it will take quite a lot of respecing. If this occurs it will cost you either huge amounts of time or MC.
Some have stated that this is an excellent idea and the refund will make up for it in huge rewards. I assure you that the refunds you receive will evaporate like a cool shot as your MC and exp drop like a waterfall and ever small infraction or mistake you make to your build will be meet with you either expending hard work or real money.
Is the respecing tools nice and does it add to the game? Yes it does but I feel in my investigation that its true purpose is to exploit players and deprive them of their monies. Initially the long time players will enjoy the Noob stomp but if you buy a new mech you are no longer filling out slots to elite and master a mech you are slowly grinding you way up an GXP,EXP,MC mountain and if you make a single mistake you must either live with it or pay for it. What's that sound? That's you screaming as you fall to the bottom to start the grind/spend trek back to a mech you think you want.

[CrashKingSnev]

Long-time player, been with MWO since Beta, I have around 85 Mechs, and a handful of modules.

Let me start by saying I really like the balance tweaks for the weapons, targeting computers and ECM. I especially appreciate the rational behind things like the Gauss critical nerf, for example, as it makes logical sense and will hopefully improve gameplay. And I'm happy to see the IS/Clan balance is getting continued attention.

OK, change is scary. This patch makes sweeping changes to customization and progression and will affect everyone greatly. Players are worried about losing progress and money, both hard-earned, I'd wager. Personally, I'm not really worried about the loss of optimization of my favorite mechs, because everyone will be similarly set-back. I'm not too worried about trying to "get-back" to what I've become used to as a baseline, after the patch.

What I AM worried about is the massive penalty for experimenting with new builds and play styles. As many others have pointed out, this experimentation and customization is core to the fun of this game. I can't imagine a conscious decision to stifle it. Respec-ing will be so costly as to be prohibitive, and even variants I enjoy, I fear, will begin to feel stagnant. And buying new mechs (packs for $ or in-game for c-bills) doesn't even seem appealing given that we'll be forced to grind so much to improve each one. The Javelin will absolutely be the last mech I spend real dollars on if this stands.

The above is bad enough for veteran players, but as some have mentioned, it's the new players that will be hit the hardest. There's such a learning curve in both gameplay and mech building that it's hard for newbies to get a toe-hold. Couple this with the already daunting grind and I see it as a barrier to making dedicated veterans out of them. With the proposed changes, this will only be so much worse, with the divide between newbs and veterans being that much more pronounced.

A long time fan of this game, I've only recently been able to convince some of my friends to invest the money and not-insignificant time to learning the basics, suffering through matches as they get their bearings, while I try to justify to them the time it takes to even buy a single new engine or why their new stock mech is almost worthless without dropping another 3-5 million c-bills they don't have. And now they're going to have to largely choose between grinding away to get a single mech competitive in skills OR buy new mechs and equipment. At this point, I'm feeling guilty for getting my friends into this mess if the patch goes live with these economy changes.

-------------------------------------

PGI, I understand you need to make money. Hell, I WANT to give you money to support this game I (mostly) really enjoy, to maintain and improve it. If the current business model isn't working and people aren't spending enough money, then I understand the need to find new revenue. But there has to be a better way. This move seems so hostile to the players, both old and new, and will ultimately hurt the game in the long run.

Please reconsider this.

[Erox]

I will be even harder for new players, because also players like me, who try to master every mech, will play only meta mechs to farm C-Bills. Why should I bother to play different mechs, if I have enough GXP. All I need now are C-Bills. For me it will be arround 2.7 billion. So meta mech farming and pug stomping...

[Knighthawk26]

PGI, Don't penalize your loyal customers with this change.

I have over 40 mechs that are elite or mastered. I don't want to take a big loss as soon as the new skill trees are activated. I would simply like to keep the equivalent of what I already have. I purchased a decent amount of modules for my mechs so I will get back 177 million c-bills as a refund. Sounds like a nice amount, but it isn't enough to re-elite the mechs I have already worked so hard to get to that level. In the new system it will cost me 9.1 million c-bills per mech to upgrade a mech to the equivalent of Elite / Master level. With 177 million in refund, I can only upgrade 19 mechs to the equivalent of elite/master. So I will lose the elite level of skills on over half of my mechs! PGI, your loyal players invested many hours in your game to get their mechs to elite level. Don't punish your most loyal customers when you roll out this change. Drop the cost in c-bills per skill by at least half. I would also suggest dropping the xp costs from 1500 to 1000 as well. This will not only be fair to your current loyal players, it will benefit new players as well.

[Knighthawk26]

Oh, and make respecs free.

A big part of the game is the mechlab. Playing around with load outs is part of what makes this game so fun. With the old system we could try a new loadout, and borrow modules from another mech and jump in a quick play match or two to see how well the mech performed.

Now we will be locked in to a specific build or must play without optimizing the skills, or pay a huge cost. Not to mention the stress and frustration your players will feel when they make an error in the skill tree and must pay dearly to fix it.

[Kerensky98]

Cypherdrene, on 09 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

136.5K EXP is way too high for new players, let alone the C-Bill cost!. Unless the GXP gain is just as high as Mech XP per match and C-Bill cost is reduced, this system will scare everyone from buyin new mechs or even try the game, making sales worse.

QQ

PTS cost to master a mech:
9.1 Million Cbills - 136,500 XP

Non PTS cost to master a mech:
All 3 Tiers = 85750 XP and zero C-bills but you have to factor in...
2 weapon modules, Radar Derp+Seismic = 18 million Cbills
Plus 670,000 XP if you haven't unlocked them yet (converting GXP to XP at the 5% rate).

That's not counting the cost of the mechs since you don't have to buy 3 now. So let's dive into that. Add on:
PTS cost to master a Spider:
2.5mil
Non PTS cost to master a Spider:
5million (assuming you sold your 2 alternates to pay for the last one)

PTS Cost to master a Kodiak:
16million
Non PTS cost to master a Kodiak:
32mllion Cbills.

If you master an Assault Mech (and god forbid a Clan Assault) on the PTS you'll be paying about a fraction of what it takes on the production server. Basically all clan mechs and IS heavies and Assaults are cheaper to master on PTS.

And when you factor in the cost of unlocking the modules you have to buy a bunch of them before the XP costs break even with PTS the problem is the C-Bill costs sky rocket if you don't swap modules around every time you switch mechs. You should have at least 4 for each mech of your CW Drop Deck which comes to 72 MILLION cbills!!!
Under the PTS you could master an IS and Clan Drop Deck for the module cost alone.

TL;DR : The new skill system is DRASTICALLY cheaper in C-Bills to master a mech unless you're piloting an Inner Sphere light. PTS seems expensive because you see it all at once. And the price of must have 6million C-Bill modules blows the Production Sever prices out of the water.

[SuperFunkTron]

Knighthawk26, on 11 February 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

PGI, Don't penalize your loyal customers with this change.

I have over 40 mechs that are elite or mastered. I don't want to take a big loss as soon as the new skill trees are activated. I would simply like to keep the equivalent of what I already have. I purchased a decent amount of modules for my mechs so I will get back 177 million c-bills as a refund. Sounds like a nice amount, but it isn't enough to re-elite the mechs I have already worked so hard to get to that level. In the new system it will cost me 9.1 million c-bills per mech to upgrade a mech to the equivalent of Elite / Master level. With 177 million in refund, I can only upgrade 19 mechs to the equivalent of elite/master. So I will lose the elite level of skills on over half of my mechs! PGI, your loyal players invested many hours in your game to get their mechs to elite level. Don't punish your most loyal customers when you roll out this change. Drop the cost in c-bills per skill by at least half. I would also suggest dropping the xp costs from 1500 to 1000 as well. This will not only be fair to your current loyal players, it will benefit new players as well.

You do realize that the current elite mech is not equivalent to the PTS maxed out mechs, right? The new system adds a lot more depth, options, and incorporates those modules int that grand total of 9.1 million. There are varying estimates of how many nodes have to be purchased to have PTS skills comparable to what we have on the live server, somewhere between 54-65 nodes. Even taking the higher end of that range (65) to try to buy the comparable nodes (which can't be done as the system is drastically different and certain fields have vastly different values), it will give you enough for 29.5 mechs to gain 65 nodes, and that will cover other abilities along the way, some of them from modules that would've cost you 6 million a piece.
If you do something simpler, divide 177 million by your 40 mechs, you will have about 4.4 million to spend per mech, almost half of what you need,which will definitely cover all the most critically needed nodes. We could also consider the likely reality that you probably don't play all 40 mechs in equal percentages. That means you could prioritize expanding the abilities of your preferred mechs at the expense of delaying development of those you use less.

[aGentleWarrior]

Kerensky98, on 11 February 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

QQ

PTS cost to master a mech:
9.1 Million Cbills - 136,500 XP

Non PTS cost to master a mech:
All 3 Tiers = 85750 XP and zero C-bills but you have to factor in...
2 weapon modules, Radar Derp+Seismic = 18 million Cbills
Plus 670,000 XP if you haven't unlocked them yet (converting GXP to XP at the 5% rate).

That's not counting the cost of the mechs since you don't have to buy 3 now. So let's dive into that. Add on:
PTS cost to master a Spider:
2.5mil
Non PTS cost to master a Spider:
5million (assuming you sold your 2 alternates to pay for the last one)

PTS Cost to master a Kodiak:
16million
Non PTS cost to master a Kodiak:
32mllion Cbills.

If you master an Assault Mech (and god forbid a Clan Assault) on the PTS you'll be paying about a fraction of what it takes on the production server. Basically all clan mechs and IS heavies and Assaults are cheaper to master on PTS.

And when you factor in the cost of unlocking the modules you have to buy a bunch of them before the XP costs break even with PTS the problem is the C-Bill costs sky rocket if you don't swap modules around every time you switch mechs. You should have at least 4 for each mech of your CW Drop Deck which comes to 72 MILLION cbills!!!
Under the PTS you could master an IS and Clan Drop Deck for the module cost alone.

TL;DR : The new skill system is DRASTICALLY cheaper in C-Bills to master a mech unless you're piloting an Inner Sphere light. PTS seems expensive because you see it all at once. And the price of must have 6million C-Bill modules blows the Production Sever prices out of the water.

Ok... But how is it to master 3 locusts now and then...

Edited by aGentleWarrior, 11 February 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Chound]

Cypherdrene, on 09 February 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

136.5K EXP is way too high for new players, let alone the C-Bill cost!. Unless the GXP gain is just as high as Mech XP per match and C-Bill cost is reduced, this system will scare everyone from buyin new mechs or even try the game, making sales worse.

Sure, running servers isn't cheap, but scaring off new customers is no way of doing business.

HIH !!!!!!! 136k XP. I'm just starting, I keep dying I get maybe 50XP in some games. I get more if I can hook up with a good team and they win but still. The trial mechs should be specked enough to give us a few items range and cooldowns. structure and armor increases. I'm trying to find a good midpoint between ops and weapons skills. The UI for skills I went in blind and didn't know what the catagories and what items were where. The enhancements summary kept covering the nodes I was trying to click. the skill tree and summaries should be fixed pannels and the left menu options so in a dropdown menu like windows. To get ac cannons the menus would be fgirepower/balistics/autocannon and that tree would apear in the middle. Info\sensors\uav.

Edited by Chound, 11 February 2017 - 03:15 PM.