89 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

"Never stop in a light"
--Mediocre light pilots

Every really good light pilot knows there are absolutely times to stop. Seismic use is one. The biggest breakthrough is knowing that you should understand the cycles of your opponents' weapons and be able to spot opportunities when they can't shoot you. That's when you shoot them. And at some of those times, to make sure your shot is completely accurate, stopping is the right move. You have to be confident and you have to have great situational awareness and it sucks when you're wrong, but it's definitely a thing.

Note: I always use seismic, even when leveling over radar derp.

Thank you for perspective over argument...forums have been hostile place as of late and I can get sucked into that pretty easily.

Sounds like I do some things right. When I first saw people using cerll Cheetah's I thought it was dumb. Then I tried it and moved from cover to cover, stop shoot, move again. Never shoot more than twice from same spot, usually only once. Knowing common builds and weapons range very important. So maybe I am doing a couple things ok for the scrub that I am. I also do practise the enemy weapons cycle part usually when in my 4 cerml Viper.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Personally, I think Seismic needs to be changed in a different way.

Yes, sticking them as part of a BAP/CAP gives them a tonnage/critslot cost - and I absolutely agree with this, as something this much more powerful than almost all other modules barring Radar Deprivation should really have a cost to the user, instead of being a mindless choice.

The second change that would be nice would be a weight-based detection radius change. Why should fatmechs that hang out in the back away from their team be encouraged to do so, because they have the guarantee of the Seismic to show if any lights are creeping up on them? It makes more sense for bigger mechs to have bigger seismic signatures. Make it a linear relationship between target mech weight and detection radius, from 90m to 250m, ranging from 20 tons to 100 tons, so that for every 5 tons of mech you show up from 10m further away on a mech's battlegrid.

[TercieI]

MacClearly, on 09 February 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

Thank you for perspective over argument...forums have been hostile place as of late and I can get sucked into that pretty easily.

Sounds like I do some things right. When I first saw people using cerll Cheetah's I thought it was dumb. Then I tried it and moved from cover to cover, stop shoot, move again. Never shoot more than twice from same spot, usually only once. Knowing common builds and weapons range very important. So maybe I am doing a couple things ok for the scrub that I am. I also do practise the enemy weapons cycle part usually when in my 4 cerml Viper.

You're welcome. FWIW, I can't stand the 2ERLL ACH. Try 4ERML. It's more flexible and fills the same basic playstyle better IMO.

[Dino Might]

MacClearly, on 09 February 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

I disagree that it is that hard to get behind the enemy. Bog, Polar, are a couple of the easiest off the top of my head and I do it on Crimson and Sulpherous a lot as well. Usually lots of cover you can work and having speed makes sweeping around pretty easy and if discovered, getting away easy as well.

Also the distance. When you have range modules your reach negates the seismic range. By the time the target sees you on seismic your first shot should already be in his back.

Plus for me I want to see lights put back to a proper size. This volumetric nonsense is the biggest nerf and bone headed as far as I have seen (been around only about a year though). Thus I don't want things to just be easy for lights. For me lights are the hardest and most skilled chassis to play and I admire those guys who do it an awful lot. It's why I Viper and Cicada more because for a potato like me it is far easier.

So if seismic is OP I don't think it is neccessarily fair to say it is because it is an indirect nerf to lights. It's most useful to see when there is a massive push building up.

The other thing that bugs me is I play this game for the neat techy stuff. UAV's, radar, ecm, seismic. It makes this not CoD for me because of the gadgets. Please don't take my gizmos away.

While some lights can definitely play outside the range of seismic, some cannot with sufficient weaponry to make a difference. The 6ML LCT-1E is great against people who rely only on seismic for SA, but the 6SmP LCT-1E gets trucked by any competent seismic user (for SRM boats, it's even worse). Yes, you can get behind the team, but it's hard to get within optimal weapons range to do fast, crippling damage without being spotted on seismic. And once you are spotted, your goose is cooked. It's kill or be killed, unless you have a very handy escape route, which is not always available. I cannot count the times I got dual-gauss OSOK'd because someone on the other team (probably) got me on seismic and was able to turn faster than I could flank at less than 150 meters. You can get off that one shot, but that won't kill your enemy. You need 3-4 good alphas in the back to do that, and you cannot stay behind anything unless you're right up close to it. The turning speed of heavies and assaults is way too fast if you still need to close more than 100 meters.

At the very least, we should be able to agree that seismic is a serious hindrance to lights (more so than any other class), because lights depend on being able to shoot at enemies that are initially unaware of their presence. Furthermore, this is the only avenue that most lights have been relegated to after the incessant nerfs. Most of the hardcore anti-light crowd shouted down any light that could theoretically stand toe to toe with a heavier mech, claiming "they shouldn't be able to win a fair fight head to head." And now those folk will defend seismic because it further hinders the remaining avenue lights have for decisive damage output.

I'm all for revamping the resizing, as you said, and I'd like there to be more ways to play lights in general. I think seismic has a place, if other factors are changed making the class viable in ways other than sneaking and backstabbing; however, the seismic problem treated in a vacuum is very much a problem as it currently sits.

Edited by Dino Might, 09 February 2017 - 04:26 PM.

[fat4eyes]

Well this thread got bigger than I expected, but good discussion so far.

My issue with seismic isn't that it kills backstabbing lights, it's because it kills scouting. Backstabbing lights don't win games, knowing WHEN and HOW to push DOES. Being able to do this with zero risk WHEN IT COUNTS (around a crucial corner/bottleneck, or just before entering an urban area) is the problem. Seismic is not just a better option than UAVs and scouting, it is SO MUCH BETTER that most of the time there's no reason to do scouting (and sometimes not even UAVs) in close quarters/built up areas. With the new skill system, EVERYONE will have seismic and I think in its current state it's going to take away even more from a very interesting part of the game.

It is this game-deciding nature of seismic that I dislike. I want battles to be won by taking a risk, rolling the dice as you cross the Rubicon and putting all your skill to back up that decision. Not by having or not having a module. If seismic can be made so following its info involves risk, I'm all for that.

Edited by fat4eyes, 09 February 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[adamts01]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

"Never stop in a light"
--Mediocre light pilots

So true. Seismic has been broken good since it came out, especially in lights. When a single hit will take you out, it's critical to have as much knowledge of your surroundings as possible, and nothing beats seismic in close quarters combat, where most light weapons shine. Never stopping is great in potato tiers where you're an impossible target, but it doesn't take too long for top players to nail your Locust even if you're running like a cracked out chicken with it's head cut off.

MacClearly, on 09 February 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

Being the best option doesn't make something OP.

In most cases it does though. We have plenty of very useful modules that aren't often used (target decay, target info gathering, advanced sensor range, shock absorbance, hill climb, AMS rof), and that's because radar dep and seismic are infinitely better. If there's a variety of viable options, the best are over-powered and the worst are under-powered. That's really it, by definition and in function seismic sensor is Over-Powered.

MacClearly, on 09 February 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So instead of thinking, 'hey that piece of equipment works well and is a solid choice compared to all this other useless stuff, how can we make it useless as well?'. How about we think in terms of 'how can we make other equipment work as well and valuable as seismic so that we have more options?'

While I agree that most other modules need some love, seismic is just too strong. It's much, much, much better than BAP which costs tonnage and crit slots, and is the standard choice on all but a few builds. That lack of diversity sucks, and I don't want to see everything buffed to the broken level of seismic. That would be like buffing all mechs to pre-nerf Cheetah or Kodiak-3 levels, it's just a bad idea. Power creep is a huge problem with this game.

Edited by adamts01, 10 February 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[adamts01]

fat4eyes, on 09 February 2017 - 06:30 PM, said:

My issue with seismic isn't that it kills backstabbing lights, it's because it kills scouting. Backstabbing lights don't win games, knowing WHEN and HOW to push DOES.

It kills bad back stabbers. Good lights move in when their target is shooting or moving. And backstabbing lights do win games. With all the structure buffs out there, and all the tasty ammo in legs, I'll often leg a mech in the backfield and leave him for the vultures when he can't keep up with the Nascar. It's nasty, and one free kill for my teammates. Of course scouting can be important, but there's no replacement for damage delt in team deathmatch.

[kapusta11]

It is already nerfed, no? -50m range under new skill tree system.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I didn't think this was a serious thread (or a serious problem) until I had a good read through the points.

Personally I rarely equip it. I take radar derp as my absolute must. If I get a secondary choice it's target info.
For ECM mechs I drop radar derp and slap in seismic.

There's some exceptions like the SB which has radar derp and seismic but for hardcore brawlers I'd say it's pretty important to know who is around the corner. The difference between one mech and 5 means either charging or retreating (yeah charging could be silly too if most are standing still but hey).

When I play in lights and creep on lrmer's/snipers, it's damn annoying they suddenly get a 6th sense but seriously, if they didn't they'd be annilated in seconds which I think is unfair.

It's a future battle with future tech, I'd vote to keep it the way it is (and that's from someone who barely uses it).

[Weeny Machine]

As a sidenote (and not really related to the discussion): having a kind of perma wallhack in a strategical shooter is one of the worst design decisions I have seen so far. Simply because good positioning AND situational awareness should be rewarded. Seismic just helps tunnel visioning potatoes

Attank, on 09 February 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

Trash talk or not, i see you cannot still provide an answer.
And believe me, "work your ** out" means a LOT of effort, which i still would like to be explained.

Since Seismic sensor work if you stand still (stand still is the focus point here) i can assure you less than a couple secs is more than enough to maneuver around a static target. If you are not able to do so, it is not a seismic issue.

But i don't like trash talk or short-nonsense answer, so we can still debate.

All the points you are talking about have a glimpse of sense if you are a solo player, grinding lights, in Quick play with Pug matches.
Asking for a nerf is logic only if the item/modules is OP in every situation, not just a specific one.

Lights are not lone ninjas, backstabbing everyone. This is not their role, even if sometimes, with the right scenario, it could work great.

A Light could be extremely valuable and effective no matter a blinking point to the enemy radar when you are near. And i can tell you what a light does not ever ever want is to be targeted (a thing Seismic don't do), but sometimes wants to be seen, just to disrupt firing line, or hoping someone panicked or is fool enough to turn his back to more deadly enemies just to try land a shot on a trespassing fast light.

Yeah, lights shouldn't flank or backstab or use their speed. Right.
As for using seismic...it is soooo hard for a heavy or an assault to just stop a second to watch for a blip and being discovered is all it needs to screw up the light
Honestly, just be quiet because it is so obvious that you do not play lights and want the seismic from covering you. This goes for any kind of play.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 10 February 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[Mystere]

Coolant, on 09 February 2017 - 12:50 PM, said:

It seems like, and maybe just me, but whenever someone complains about Seismic it is a light pilot that likes to sneak up on a mech and core them in the back. In MW4:Mercs radar was not LOS and passed thru terrain and building alike...even Passive Radar had 250m range and passed thru terrain and building alike. It was almost impossible to sneak up on someone unless they were intensely focused on a target. MWO makes it very easy to sneak up on a mech.

It could be argued that that "feature" in MW4:Mercs was a design decision based on limited CPU power at that time. It's much cheaper CPU-wise to just ignore terrain.

Alternatively, it could also be argued that seismic sensors were an integral part of "radar" in that game.

It's your choice.

[Roughneck45]

Bush Hopper, on 10 February 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

As a sidenote (and not really related to the discussion): having a kind of perma wallhack in a strategical shooter is one of the worst design decisions I have seen so far. Simply because good positioning AND situational awareness should be rewarded. Seismic just helps tunnel visioning potatoes

Eh, if they are tunnel visioning they wont notice anyway.

Its certainly the strongest module/quirk, no argument there, but it looks like the range is getting reduced a bit and you have to invest two points to get the full benefit. That range reduction is pretty huge too when you consider small laser and pulse laser optimal ranges.

I like that its unique too, instead of boosting abilities we already have like a lot of the others.

[MacClearly]

TercieI, on 09 February 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

You're welcome. FWIW, I can't stand the 2ERLL ACH. Try 4ERML. It's more flexible and fills the same basic playstyle better IMO.

Will try it. I like it on the Jenner IIC and one of my Viper's.

[Revis Volek]

adamts01, on 09 February 2017 - 04:20 AM, said:

Maybe only let lights and mediums carry it, and let lights relay that info to the team. There are your scout and hunter classes right there.

best damn idea i hear all freaking month!

[MacClearly]

adamts01, on 10 February 2017 - 08:04 AM, said:

In most cases it does though. We have plenty of very useful modules that aren't often used (target decay, target info gathering, advanced sensor range, shock absorbance, hill climb, AMS rof), and that's because radar dep and seismic are infinitely better. If there's a variety of viable options, the best are over-powered and the worst are under-powered. That's really it, by definition and in function seismic sensor is Over-Powered.


While I agree that most other modules need some love, seismic is just too strong. It's much, much, much better than BAP which costs tonnage and crit slots, and is the standard choice on all but a few builds. That lack of diversity sucks, and I don't want to see everything buffed to the broken level of seismic. That would be like buffing all mechs to pre-nerf Cheetah or Kodiak-3 levels, it's just a bad idea. Power creep is a huge problem with this game.

I disagree mainly because I use target info gathering a lot over seismic (but am not a competitive player). Advanced sensor range and shock absorbance are not very useful in my opinion due to map size and not taking any damage on any map over 1% for jumping down anywhere and 100 metres or added range or whatever it is? Don't have any weapons that benefit from that. Hill climb is another very situational where seismic not by any fault of its own is more useful all round.

You still seem to be stuck on because they are useful in many situations where the others are either situational or useless makes the few decent ones OP. Look at the nature of what you are comparing them to and ask yourself honestly if they are not either highly situational or as in the case of sensor range, useless. So instead of making cool toys that actually have value and work well you seem to want to make them all garbage and that doesn't make sense to me.

Even if they were to tone it down a bit, it is still going to be a go to choice because it is inherently useful. You bring up the Kodiak and Cheetah for example. Well they are still way up there in there class and despite nerfs are still go to mechs.

The other thing is your argument is based around comparing them to other modules and popularity. This in my opinion considering how the others are situational or crappy, not a good measuring stick. That they are the go to doesn't matter as much as how they actually perform. Seismic doesn't reach out past a lot of weapon systems besides machine guns and small lasers. If there was an argument to help lights it might be to decrease the range to 180 or 200m (to account for closing in speed), there might be a decent argument. What the OP is suggesting however is nonsense.

Oh and if you don't like them being tonage free equipment (which actually does make sense because they wouldn't weight a hundred pounds let alone a ton) you are going to hate them more as a 'skill'....

[Khobai]

this is why we need at least 3 different skill trees (like command/support, striker/assault, recon/skirmisher) instead of one generic skill tree

that way we can segregate certain skills from certain mechs. only lights and mediums should have seismic for example. and maybe some of the odd heavies that fall into the recon/skirmisher classification like the dragon

not every mech should have access to every skill. that doesnt promote role diversity which is what one of the design goals of the skill tree was stated to be. in order to have role diversity you need different roles that cant do everything themselves and are dependent on other roles.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2017 - 11:37 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

adamts01, on 10 February 2017 - 08:08 AM, said:

It kills bad back stabbers. Good lights move in when their target is shooting or moving.

I love those "get gud" arguments, especially when they exist in a vacuum. You know, the target isn't alone and far from any help often. As one of the guys above said: you need to get in 3-4 good alphas to the back or leg to disable or kill a target. Seismic makes this endeavor so much harder any buys the victim enough time to screw the light mech's attack simply because it needs to pull out often under fire which results in severe damage to the mech.

Since you love those "get gud" arguments, how about that one: get some skill called "situational awareness" then you do not need crutches like seismic sensor

[Metus regem]

Juodas Varnas, on 09 February 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

I'd personally would roll the seismic sensor into BAP.

Because, i'm pretty sure, canonically BAP contains seismic sensors in addition to all the other crap.
Then at least, seismic sensor would have some sort of critslot/tonnage cost associated with it.

"The Beagle Active Probe (BAP) is a suite of enhancement technology that, when attached to general electronic sensors, enables the equipped unit to detect and classify other battlefield units whether they are camouflaged or even shut down, with the exception of conventional infantry.^[1] The probe was first introduced by the Terran Hegemony in 2576 as a means of combating active camouflage and other electronic jamming systems which had become prolific by the end of the Age of War. The system consisted of not only a separate computer core but an entire second set of sensors, including radar, infrared, visible light and seismic detectors, positioned at strategic points around the operating unit. As the unit's native sensor array scanned the surrounding area, this data was retrieved by the Beagle's computer core and cross-referenced with data from its own secondary sensors. If an anomaly was detected the Beagle performed a more detailed sensor sweep of the target area. With this process happening every millisecond, the Beagle was able to verify and even identify threats regardless of local terrain or electronic warfare interference."

http://www.sarna.net...le_Active_Probe


Oddly enough, it also has an often requested ability for MWO:

"In addition to the ability to detect and classify targets at longer range, the Beagle includes a memory unit that records the events of a battle and allows for later playback. This includes the ability for the user to "re-fight" the battle by making different tactical decisions, which are then analyzed and implemented by the system, allowing for the resulting consequences to be observed."

[adamts01]

Revis Volek, on 10 February 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

best damn idea i hear all freaking month!

I think the best thing about it is that it buffs lights and mediums in a non-damage dealing way, which is pretty critical since most players think lights should be inferior even though they take up the exact same slot any other mech does.

MacClearly, on 10 February 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

You still seem to be stuck on because they are useful in many situations where the others are either situational or useless makes the few decent ones OP.
Oh and if you don't like them being tonage free equipment (which actually does make sense because they wouldn't weight a hundred pounds let alone a ton) you are going to hate them more as a 'skill'....

I think the only thing hanging us up is how powerful we each feel a free module should be. I think it shouldn't be nearly as useful on equipment that takes tonnage and space. But yeah, space magic, whatever, I'll be playing Arma.

Bush Hopper, on 10 February 2017 - 11:40 AM, said:

I love those "get gud" arguments, especially when they exist in a vacuum. You know, the target isn't alone and far from any help often. As one of the guys above said: you need to get in 3-4 good alphas to the back or leg to disable or kill a target. Seismic makes this endeavor so much harder any buys the victim enough time to screw the light mech's attack simply because it needs to pull out often under fire which results in severe damage to the mech.

Since you love those "get gud" arguments, how about that one: get some skill called "situational awareness" then you do not need crutches like seismic sensor

I don't know why you're so upset. I'm even arguing the same thing as you, that seismic is OP and basically a crutch. Anyway, I just crunched some numbers. Let's take a typical light alpha from the Jenner or Locust, 30 points. I picked a heavy mech that would often be solo in the back, the Archer, max 60 points leg armor, 30 points structure. Ballistic/missile mechs often run ammo in the legs, and those legs are often stripped of quite a bit of armor. 200m is well within optimal medium laser range and 2 leg alphas is easy to do with a possible ammo explosion, a 3rd alpha legs the guy even with maxed armor. I'm arguing that seismic didn't kill that sort of gameplay, which isn't super L33T pro MLG gameplay, it's just normal light shenanigans. So I'll stand by what I said earlier, if a light can't do that, then he's a bad light, pretty hard to argue otherwise. It's hardly a "get gud" argument, maybe a lights 101 tutorial, and not too sure what you mean by this being in a vacume, it's present in just about every match, plenty of examples for you.

[MacClearly]

adamts01, on 10 February 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

I think the only thing hanging us up is how powerful we each feel a free module should be. I think it shouldn't be nearly as useful on equipment that takes tonnage and space. But yeah, space magic, whatever, I'll be playing Arma.

I appreciate what you are saying and bap being better doesn't have to mean seismic should suck. One guy brought up that bap should have seismic which I can only guess PGI split it up to nerf bap? Not sure but what I do know is a seismic device today is not very big.