63 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

So far, I've only read the initial post, not tested in the PTS yet.. but here are my first impressions so far:

1) The firepower skills need to be more distinctive and structured.. If I want to just build up saaay LRM range, why would PGI force me to also build up LRM cooldown? It's not feeling like I have much "control" over the way I want to set my skills up..

2) PGI basically went "hey, we want you to feel like you can buff you mech, without actually buffing your mech. So we gonn' nerf your mech, so you can re-buff it to where it is now" - Its understandable, but kinda a ***** move..

3) Every time I read the explanations they give for nerfs, they always use cheesy lines like "yeah,we nerfed this into the ground to bring it more in line with all the other similar stuff" - Ok, if that was the first time, it would be all cool.. but stuff has been brought "in line" so many times already, that "the line" feels pretty far away right now..

4) LRM range nerf / ECM nerf / other similar nerfs - Dear PGI, let me teach you something about the way people think and react.. What you did there was you took something away from us that we had, and you made us work to get it back. That is not good. That pisses people off. The way to make people happy is to make them work for something they never had, or to make something they have better. So yes, You can expect a shait storm over all the "base nerfs".. people will not like that. LRM range nerf for instance.. that range was sacred to LRM users. And you've gone and ruined it.

5) In culmination - The new skill tree forces mech build specialisation, and completely nerfs variety builds. If saay, I want to use my Frankenmech Timberwolf that uses LRM10, UAC20 and Small lasers... I can't boost those weapons effectively. Instead, my LRM is clipped, and my UAC is nerfed from the start, and I have to go "jack of all trades-master of none", getting essentially sub-par skill bonuses. Before the new skill tree, that particular build was one of my most effective builds. Now... I doubt it will keep that title.

Thank god you did a PTS, you still have a chance to fix this..

[Arugela]

I think everyone is missing two things.

1. the system may have a new max in skills and layouts giving reason for the new higher cost per mech.
2. It is also the new way to get modules. (AKA the previous cbill sink)

Of course the old system didn't include cbills. Because the cbills were in the modules and it was seperate. Now it is not separate.. If you look at the costs between the new system it is cheaper and better. you get customization and focus. And you get cheaper modules. I bet you anything the low end choices could be used to get the same mech as now for either the same or much less.

Haven't been on the server to test it as I'm linux and the test server doesn't work for me. But these simple facts are obvious and seem to be missed by most people. BTW, I bet we can get more "modules" now also.

There may be a big change in tactics if everyone can more easily get things like seismic and deprivation and still pick more stuff. maybe more team coordination. Probably the reason all the missiles got those accuracy bonuses. They will need to be to do more in less time with the new stuff available.

And before anyone forgets. We are getting money back for our modules. Unless they have changed that. I believe full price for all of them. given the xp points are cheaper than full mod layouts. anyone who has bought mods is going to be dong well cbill wise as far as specing up initially.

Edited by Arugela, 10 February 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Oh, I forgot one thing..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to actually get a skill, you have to spend both XP and cbills.. and when you respec.. you get XP back, but not the cbills?

Thats not cool..

[Besh]

Khobai, on 10 February 2017 - 03:03 AM, said:

the fact is you shouldnt have to pay at all to respec

we didnt have to pay anything before we could just swap modules for free

you should only have to pay initially for skill points. after you buy them the first time you should be able to respec them for free whenever you want.

it makes zero sense to put customization behind a paywall when customization was this games only real draw. you dont take the biggest strength of your game and make it the least accessible feature... thats re tarded.

There actually is no "paywall" . You can respec individual Nodes as well as the entire tree using inGame currency . The term "paywall" is used if something inGame requires real Cash to be done .

This is not the case for respeccing SkillTree. Imho, this is one of the many aspects they got RIGHT !

Actually, the way they made respec to work shows clearly that they have read, and listened to player concerns .

Edited by Besh, 10 February 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Appogee]

Arugela, on 10 February 2017 - 03:22 AM, said:

I think everyone is missing two things.
1. the system may have a new max in skills and layouts giving reason for the new higher cost per mech.
2. It is also the new way to get modules. (AKA the previous cbill sink)

Of course the old system didn't include cbills. Because the cbills were in the modules and it was seperate. Now it is now. If you look at the costs between the new system it is cheaper and better. you get customization and focus. And you get cheaper modules. I bet you anything the low end choices could be used to get the same mech as now for much less.

I just showed you a direct comparison. The new system is more expensive in CBills and XP, even taking into account module costs.

Incidentally, when I tried out the new system in PTS yesterday, I ran out of Skill Nodes before I was able to get my Jenner-IIC up to the same level as it is in the old system. And that's despite it boating only one weapon type, SRMs, which requires only one set of weapon unlocks.

So no, you wont be getting "the same Mech as now for less". That's because:
* you need to make multiple progressive unlocks of what used to be a single unlock;
* you have to unlock useless skills to get to the ones you really want.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 03:30 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

There actually is no "paywall" .

there actually is.

when you have 150 mechs and need something like a billion and a half credits

I would literally have to quit my job and play non-stop for the next year straight to earn that many credits without paying.

so please dont tell me theres no paywall. it is physically impossible to play that much unless all you do all day every day is play MWO which is not a reasonable assumption.

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2017 - 03:31 AM.

[Arugela]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

I just showed you a direct comparison. The new system is more expensive in CBills and XP, even taking into account module costs.

Incidentally, when I tried out the new system in PTS yesterday, I ran out of Skill Nodes before I was able to get my Jenner-IIC up to the same level as it is in the old system. And that's despite it boating only one weapon type, SRMs, which requires only one set of weapon unlocks.

So no, you wont be getting "the same Mech as now for less". That's because:
* you need to make multiple progressive unlocks of what used to be a single unlock;
* you have to unlock useless skills to get to the ones you really want.

A comparison to what.

Mods on general have 4 max. Two utility. Two weapon. Those utility are normally seismic and deprivation. They cots 6,000,000 each. The weapons to be cheap are 3,000,000 each. that is 18,000,000 total to spec out. Seismi and radar deprivation are 12,000,000 alone.

The max you can spend per mech now is 9,100,000 and that may get you more than 2 utility modules plus all the weapons variations you can hope to get.

And we will get full refunds for all mods. so we will get money back. It is a combined mod/bonus system. You should not be grinding for a new mech while trying to get the previous one maxed.. That would not make sense. But you will spend less money overall to max a mech than before. Look at the specific math and it's half as much easily on cbills. So you will get more over time. And you won't be playing with half finished mechs. So, each mech may be easier to grind with.

BTW, when you were grinding for modules in the past you were not saving for another mech. So being it cost less cbills now than your average proper build. You will end up maxing faster and spending less time on modules meaning more money for new mechs. The only way this is not true is if you never bought modules. Then you are at the mercy of the systems specifics.

I'd personally rather get to finish my individual mech faster and then go to the next and have stuff that is as useful as possible than running to get new mechs constantly. It should make the grind nicer also. And make each mech more useful potentially. I prefer role oriented mechs.

The system includes cbills now because it includes modules in the skill tree. So it's now cbills+xp for one system instead of two separate systems. I bet you anything it is more realistically attuned to how much we make also. We will finally get to use our xp and the cbills will be a bit less and probably be more realistic to what we get compared to trying to get full modules at the old price.

Heck you may enjoy the game more simply because everyone will now have siesmic and deprivation and play better. We will now have group knowledge of enemy positions on average and the games may play out smarter than before and make it much easier to tolerate.

Edited by Arugela, 10 February 2017 - 03:46 AM.

[Appogee]

Arugela, on 10 February 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

A comparison to what.

Mods on general have 4 max. Two utility two weapon. Those utility are normally seismic and deprivation. They cots 6,000,000 each. The weapons to be cheap are 3,000,000 each. that is 18,000,000 total to spec out. Seismi and radar deprivation are 12,000,000 alone.

The max you can spend per mech now is 9,100,000 and that may get you more than 2 utility modules plus all the weapons variations you can hope to get.

Read my post on the previous page. It lays out the comparison for you.

The key difference is that people reuse Modules now. Under the new system, they can't.

If you presently equip every one of your Mechs with individual Modules (ie no reuse) and you use the most expensive Modules (ie 6M versions not 2M versions such as Zoom) on every single Mech, then the CBill difference between the two systems is minimal.

But if you presently move Modules around, then you will find the new system will cost you way more CBills. And that cost differential will go up for every new Mech you acquire.

Incidentally, regardless of CBills, the XP cost of Mastering a Mech is significantly more under the new system. And despite that increased XP cost, you will likely be unable to enhance it to its present level. (I am not so worried about this because at least it's a level playing field for everyone.)

[PhoenixFire55]

I think I know where all the revenues from the new skill tree will go ... they'll go into paying all the tools posting "we like the new skill tree" and "PGI plz take my money" on the forum so that they can say that playerbase approves.

On a side note ... Behold the day I've liked Appogee's posts. Truly as they say ... the enemy of my enemy ... in the face of a greater evil all forumwarriors should unite.

HBS BT can't come too soon.

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 10 February 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

On a side note ... Behold the day I've liked Appogee's posts. Truly as they say ... the enemy of my enemy ... in the face of a greater evil all forumwarriors should unite.

Is this rapprochement? Note that I even let you kill me in a match the other day

PhoenixFire55, on 10 February 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

HBS BT can't come too soon.

Very true. I'm hoping the beta coincides with the release of the new skill tree. Because I would ideally like to stop playing MWO for a month after the new skill tree, and delay respeccing my Mechs, until the pro players have worked out the new min/maxing and metamechs for the rest of us.

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 03:52 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

Is this rapprochement? Note that I even let you kill me in a match the other day

And I've taken a screenshot of your epic fail just so I can throw it in your face ... when the proper time comes. Kinda figured I might not have another chance since if the skill tree goes live I doubt I'll stick for much longer ... But thats all off topic lyrics.

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 10 February 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

And I've taken a screenshot of your epic fail just so I can throw it in your face ... when the proper time comes. Kinda figured I might not have another chance since if the skill tree goes live I doubt I'll stick for much longer ... But thats all off topic lyrics.

Yeah, I never should have bought that crappy Huntsman let alone tried to level it in the Group Queue. (In fact I'm not even bothering to Basic it further, given what we've now seen in the Skill Tree. I'll just focus on Mastering a few of my much better Mechs.)

But be aware that I am holding in reserve a screenshot of you doing nn (redacted, let's just say it's a much much much lower damage number than my Huntsman fail!) in a MadDog on Caustic.

So it will be Mutually Assured Destruction if you post your screenshot

Edited by Appogee, 10 February 2017 - 04:03 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Yeah, I never should have bought that crappy Huntsman let alone tried to level it in the Group Queue. (In fact I'm not even bothering to Basic it further, given what we've now seen in the Skill Tree. I'll just focus on Mastering a few of my much better Mechs.)

Oy oy ... I was in a Huntsman myself that was bought just two hours prior. Is this the place I insert a random gitgud comment? lol

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

But be aware that I am holding in reserve a screenshot of you doing nn (redacted, let's just say it's a much much much lower damage number than my Huntsman fail!) in a MadDog on Caustic.

So it will be Mutually Assured Destruction if you post your screenshot

Hahaha, yeah I remember that one, we didn't have a light mech so I went ahead to scout and found the entire team. It was like 18 damage or smth ...

[LordNothing]

as some one who mastered every mech they have ever owned, and who has owned almost everything at some point, and who buys mechs 5 at a time every time a new chassis comes out just because im that bored with what the game has to offer, and who even throws hundreds of dollars of real money at this game in the faint hope that it wont get spent on some kind of thrice weekly office kegger, i have to say that i do not like this new feature. its going to screw me over way too much. this game already feels like a full time job, now its going to feel like having 3 jobs. i mean come on the grind has to end somewhere. free to play, never again, you have ruined that for me pgi.

[Phoolan Devi]

Appogee, on 10 February 2017 - 03:01 AM, said:

I see you're still not using math. Allow me to assist you.

Let's look at a player who wants to Master a relatively modest hangar of 9 Mastered Mechs. Let's compare the current system with the new system.

Under the Current System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills - a Storm Crow - as an average Mech price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 515,250 XP
CBill cost to buy, say, 4 of the most expensive reusable Mech Modules: 24M
CBill cost to buy, say, 8 reusable Weapon Modules: 24M
XP cost to unlock 12 Pilot Skills for the 12 Modules: 42,000 XP

Total CBills: 147M
Total XP: 557,250

Under the New System
CBill cost to buy 9 Mechs: 99M (using 11M CBills as an average price).
XP cost to Master 9 Mechs: 1,228,500 XP
CBill cost to Master 9 Mechs: 81.9M

Total CBills: 180.9M
Total XP: 1,228,500

Conclusion:
The new system requires 23% more CBills and 220% more XP.
And that's after a generous comparison.
In fact, the new system is even worse with the more Mechs you Master, or if you select less expensive Mechs, or if you don't spend money upgrading the other two variants you'll never use under your current "set of three" etc.

Finally:
Now that I've laid out the math with you, do you still think your opening comment - "Complains about cost, forgets that fact that it's cheaper than what an IS or even a Clan player has to do with the current system. At this point you can all stop with your thin veils" - was because I "hate change and PGI"...?

Or do you think perhaps I studied and calculated the impact of the new system, took the time to share it with fellow players, and also, got justifiably concerned that PGI had actually further increased what they told us at MechCon were "placeholder values"?

....and here your "math" leaves you, since you do not take into consideration, that under the current system, the 42,000XP you take for freeing up piloting skills are GXP and not MechXP! Given, that the ratio at grinding between MechXP and GXP is roughly 1:10, your 42,000XP transfer to 420,000XP and thus, the difference in XP is about 950,000XP (old system) to 1,230,000XP (new system). Ok, still about 300,000XP more, but taking into consideration how much more you can specialize you mech now, for example taking now module benefits in quantities you couldn't have done before because of slot limitation, those 300,000 extra XP are well justified!

I really do like the new skill tree. The only downside for me is that i find 91SP a little bit too much...at least for a variety of mechs. For the underperformers it will be just right to make them viable but for the rest, there should be limitation at SP's for each chassis!

[Kotzi]

But you dont have to grind the modules for each mech at the moment.

[Jehofi]

Phoolan Devi, on 10 February 2017 - 05:02 AM, said:

....and here your "math" leaves you, since you do not take into consideration, that under the current system, the 42,000XP you take for freeing up piloting skills are GXP and not MechXP! Given, that the ratio at grinding between MechXP and GXP is roughly 1:10, your 42,000XP transfer to 420,000XP and thus, the difference in XP is about 950,000XP (old system) to 1,230,000XP (new system). Ok, still about 300,000XP more, but taking into consideration how much more you can specialize you mech now, for example taking now module benefits in quantities you couldn't have done before because of slot limitation, those 300,000 extra XP are well justified!

I really do like the new skill tree. The only downside for me is that i find 91SP a little bit too much...at least for a variety of mechs. For the underperformers it will be just right to make them viable but for the rest, there should be limitation at SP's for each chassis!

Is ist really so hard to understand that there is no direct comparison between the 2 because he old system has an offset and a lower gain, while the new system has no offset and a higher gain. Think of an linear equation y = kx+d

old system: k = 1, d = 10.
new system k = 3, d =0:

They will intersect somewhere Before that intersect the new system is better behind that the old system is better.

Thus we can follow that the new system is better for newer player and that it totally will screw over the older players, the older you are the more you get screwed.

But this would not be a problem because after the switch both players have the same system. However you need to give the older players their place in the new system else the will lose access to stuff they already had. Which is a thing you must never ever do to a player.

And to be more specific, the more mechs you have the less modules/engines you have to buy because you can swap them. There is the difference you to are having coming from.

BTW i wonder why you think that only 1 of the 3 variants is playable, i have a lot of mechs where i enjoy 2 variants, and some where i enjoy all variants. Currently i have 42 fully mastered and 37 not. Although that is a bit offset due to the recent sale and the BW release where i have not had the time to get them mastered.

[Phoolan Devi]

Kotzi, on 10 February 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

But you dont have to grind the modules for each mech at the moment.

For beginners, it is now easier and faster to get things like advanced zoom, seismic, radar derp etc pp. So, in this regard it is a huge improvement and reduces grind significantly. The same goes dor weapon improvements.

.....and the futhermost, I'm more than happy not having to play the mini-game "find the modules" anymore!

[Jehofi]

Phoolan Devi, on 10 February 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

For beginners, it is now easier and faster to get things like advanced zoom, seismic, radar derp etc pp. So, in this regard it is a huge improvement and reduces grind significantly. The same goes dor weapon improvements.

.....and the futhermost, I'm more than happy not having to play the mini-game "find the modules" anymore!

It does not reduce the grind, it lowers (removes) the entry hurdle. Actually it increases the grind manifold.

Dont get me wrong removing that entry hurdle is a very good thing. But increasing the grind overall is NOT!

[Steinar Bergstol]

Phoolan Devi, on 10 February 2017 - 05:34 AM, said:

.....and the futhermost, I'm more than happy not having to play the mini-game "find the modules" anymore!

Oh, lord... That particular "minigame" has on more than one occasion made me go "bugger this! I'm going to bed!"