234 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 13 February 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

The modified crit system is actually something I am excited to see rolled out.

For those who didn't take a look, by in large IS gear is either unchanged or buffed. There a few exceptions like half ton of ammo, DHS, and 1-slot weapons, but mostly it's 10+ hitpoints.

Clans on the other hand mostly took a hit. A lot of their weapons are weaker than their IS counterparts. However, some of the big weapons like UAC/20s and LB20x are going to be stronger than the current version. So it's not all black and white here.

Gauss and PPC will crit less which I think was good because they were out shining the crit weapons by hitting for 10-15 damage and insta criting items because they were mostly 10 hitpoints.

That said, as far as I can see there are still two problems that should be addressed.

First, Targeting Computer 1 and Targeting Computer 6 are bugged. They are giving Beam weapons higher crit values than they should. A TC 1 was actually giving a critical hit buff to lasers better than the TC 4.

Second, I think Artemis should increase hitpoints of missile weapons because it costs 1 ton and adds 1 slot. bigger = more easily critical hit and this change is supposed to be focusing on making bigger weapons tougher to crit.

All in all I think this will be good for the game particularly in balancing IS and Clan. I also like the thematic element of making the IS weaker offensively, but more resilient.

Um, I was losing IS weapons left and right, so to say that IS gear is unchanged or buffed seems very wrong.

[Jman5]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 February 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Um, I was losing IS weapons left and right, so to say that IS gear is unchanged or buffed seems very wrong.

I said most were. For IS 1-slot weapons, DHS, and half ton ammo were reduced by 2.5 hitpoints. While larger weapons had an increase and the rest stayed at 10. You don't have to take my word for it. The hitpoints of items are plainly listed in the mechlab on the PTS and they match up in the with what the .XML says.

If there is a bug besides the one I listed with Targeting Computers, I hope you can find it. Otherwise all I can attribute to what you say is that RNG is RNG. Perhaps the 25% buff to structure + quirks means you are spending more time with exposed critable components. When before the arm, or side torso would have blown out several hits before you rolled a crit. Now it's lasting longer. Combine that with the fact that yes some IS items are weaker means you are more likely to see more crits on your mech before you lose arms and torsos.

Edited by Jman5, 13 February 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[oldradagast]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

Bit of a monkey's paw there. Of all the ways to increase TTK they're going to pick the one that's really not fun.

Seriously... the more I see some of the decisions PGI makes, the more I think they are just trying to spite the players to prove a point.

NOBODY said they wanted crits to happen more often, so now we get that. We also get our "monkey's paw" wish of longer lived mechs. Yeah, because people really equate "living long in a game" with "not being able to do anything useful in the game." That's what we wanted... right...

I also like how this meshes up with PGI's utter inability to simply give mechs with cruddy hitboxes ARMOR buffs vs. internal structure buffs. Thanks to Crit-ageddon - coming soon to a live server near you! - all those structure buffs you get because your mech has lousy hitboxes will literally be worthless because your weapons will be dead the moment the armor is breached. Given PGI's almost mocking turn on the players at this point, I can't help but wonder if this was intentional. Or, are they finally get off their rears and only give out armor buffs. Or, will somehow monkey's paw THAT request to continue to prove a point.

Ugh... this game is really sliding these days. It's like we're past the point of actual development and now down to people randomly breaking things just to keep themselves employed.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 13 February 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

I said most were. For IS 1-slot weapons, DHS, and half ton ammo were reduced by 2.5 hitpoints. While larger weapons had an increase and the rest stayed at 10. You don't have to take my word for it. The hitpoints of items are plainly listed in the mechlab on the PTS and they match up in the with what the .XML says.

If there is a bug besides the one I listed with Targeting Computers, I hope you can find it. Otherwise all I can attribute to what you say is that RNG is RNG. Perhaps the 25% buff to structure + quirks means you are spending more time with exposed critable components. When before the arm, or side torso would have blown out several hits before you rolled a crit. Now it's lasting longer. Combine that with the fact that yes some IS items are weaker means you are more likely to see more crits on your mech before you lose arms and torsos.

No it has nothing to do with extra structure, as I'm losing the weapons immediately when structure is still yellow/light orange.

I seriously doubt its RNG, as how often I was losing PPCs and ER LL, but I did confirm what you said about the hitpoints. It wasn't stated but did they increase the global crit chance or something? Something definitely feels funky, and I don't think the changes to hit points would cause the behavior I was experiencing.

If I'm wrong, then great.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 February 2017 - 05:38 PM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 February 2017 - 05:31 PM, said:

No it has nothing to do with extra structure, as I'm losing the weapons immediately when structure is still yellow/light orange.

I seriously doubt its RNG, as how often I was losing PPCs and ER LL, but I did confirm what you said about the hitpoints. It wasn't stated but did they increase the global crit chance or something? Something definitely feels funky, and I don't think the changes to hit points would cause the behavior I was experiencing.

I know there were crit chance adjustments based on the notes.

It could be related or unrelated to Targeting Comps.

[Monkey Lover]

Big buff to clans. With tons of weapons hardpoints and their targeting computer doing extra crits its going to help them a lot.

Will IS structure armor quirks even matter anymore?

Edited by Monkey Lover, 13 February 2017 - 05:41 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Big buff to clans. With tons of weapons and their targeting computer doing extra crits its going to help them a lot.

Will IS structure armor quirks even matter anymore?

Going to make torso twisting a bigger must for IS players.

[Monkey Lover]

Carl Vickers, on 13 February 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Going to make torso twisting a bigger must for IS players.

Going to make the head laser king for IS mechs

[Deathlike]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Going to make the head laser king for IS mechs

TBH, if you somehow deal enough damage to the head, you'd automatically lose the weapon in it on the PTS.

[FupDup]

Probably Not, on 13 February 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Sigh.

I really don't think anyone was clamoring for internals to get crit more often. Were they?

I was clamoring for dedicated crit-seeker weapons like LBX to get crits more often.

Making everything else get constant crits is something else entirely...

[Cementi]

I actually like crits being meaningful.

[Carl Vickers]

Cementi, on 13 February 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

I actually like crits being meaningful.

Bit of a difference between meaningful and OP.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 13 February 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[Exard3k]

I really enjoyed the crit system while playing on the PTS (lobby with my unit, 1on1 and above +lots of public 4v4). Maybe some numbers have to be tweaked a bit, but in general this provides me with a better gameplay experience. I accept the RNG argument, but right now it's more random whether you lose a component or not. You never know...5 matches, everything is fine. In match no. 6 you magically lose that one ballistic you heavily rely on.

With the new crit system you know you will lose components as soon as your armor is gone. It's a reliable mechanic not some magical thing that may happen every few matches at random where no one really understands why.

On live, there isn't much difference in armor and structure...most benefits from armor are psychological. Structure basically means "you crossed the ~35% HP threshold" and has no special property otherwise (except for those rare random crits).

Making crits on structure also means that you lose firepower based on how damaged the mech is. No 20% mechs anymore with 100% firepower. On PTS it's are more linear decrease in firepower once you hit structure. Was always a bit weird to me to see smoking wrecks crippling fully operational mechs. It's a more realistic approach. But when you like e.g. tank games....it's a matter of taste whether you prefer world of tanks (subtle) or war thunder (realistic) in terms of critical component damage.

But thats philosophy and maths....what really matter is if the game is more fun like that for you. For me, it is. Values may change in future builds, but reliable crits are less random and more fun to me and being cored will be a more interesting and important term.


edit: For me this also results in more build diversity, as I experienced (esp. in my Rifleman on PTS) that arm weapons are critted way less than my torso weapons. Where arm weapons often are considered inferior to torso mounts, they are more reliable when you take into account that people are shooting for CT/side torsos almost exclusively. Interesting. Mechs like Warhawk, ballistic mechs and many others get their special small improvements like that.

Edited by Exard3k, 13 February 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Cementi, on 13 February 2017 - 06:26 PM, said:

I actually like crits being meaningful.

I would agree with you but it really hurts mechs with only a few weapons.For example i had a iv4 with two ac10's both of these were critted out and i ran around the whole game without weapons.

I had a spider k with the one lpl on the center. Some cheetoo hit my back and crit the weapon . I was weapon less with 95% of my armor.

Maybe we can get quirks on the mechs with limited hardpoints?

[Y E O N N E]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Maybe we can get quirks on the mechs with limited hardpoints?

Or maybe we can get rid of crits entirely since they defeat the point of having hitpoints for internal structure and further de-value big guns...

[Mcgral18]

Prosperity Park, on 13 February 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Gauss and PPC will no longer deal their full damage to critical components, and they are changing weapon/equipement crit health to relatively match the size of the equipment. So, not everything will have 10 health anymore and Gauss/PPC won't be the magical one-crit wonders they used to be.

I like the new system.

Well, ACTUALLY, Gauss and PPCs still one shot any 7.5 HP item (cERPPC, cGauss, MLs, SLs, heatsinks, etc...)
Gauss had their 2 and 3x Crit rolls removed, but got 17 stacked onto their default 17, so they still crit at a 42% rate, but exclusively for 1 Crit.




I do find it funny how I suggested EXACTLY what this is well over a year ago. The sub-1 CritDamMult for the Gauss Rifle.
I did not, however, expect HP to be reduced to match it, so it's still a fantastic Crit weapon.

-<Weapon faction="InnerSphere" HardpointAliases="Ballistic,LargeWeapon,GaussRifle,ISGaussRifle" name="GaussRifle" id="1021">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\GaussRifle.dds" descTag="@GaussRifle_desc" nameTag="@GaussRifle"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="2000" lifetime="10" duration="0.0" tons="15" maxRange="1320" longRange="660" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="GaussAmmo" cooldown="5.0" heat="1.0" impulse="0.05" heatdamage="0" damage="15" numFiring="1" projectileclass="bullet" type="Ballistic" slots="7" Health="10" critDamMult="0.5" critChanceIncrease="0.17,-1.0,-1.0" InternalExplosionDmg="20" ExplodeChance="0.9" groupedlocally="1"/>

-<EffectList>

isLPL is at 10 HP, isPPC family at 12.5



I still stand by the fact that a 40 HP AC20 wouldn't last long

[Monkey Lover]

This is what i always hated about crits is how even at max range brushing a laser over someone can kill them


I fired twice at the atlas after i took off the armor using 1 laser to try not to crit it.
First time knocks out 2 weapons at max range of the small laser. So basically no damage.
Second hit kill the mech lol

[chucklesMuch]

Mmm so we could have ridiculous games where a single enemy mech... say a cheetah (cos everyone loves them), perhaps with a single remaining spl (cos weapons spread over 4 sections and people can't aim so well), maybe even legged.. chasing half a dozen weapon less; armour buffed assaults, who are twisting there mech hearts out trying preserve there lead for the remainining x minutes of the QP match game... gee fun

[Exard3k]

Monkey Lover, on 13 February 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

I fired twice at the atlas after i took off the armor using 1 laser to try not to crit it.
First time knocks out 2 weapons at max range of the small laser. So basically no damage.
Second hit kill the mech lol

Never test things like crits and damage on mechs in the testing grounds. They got stock builds and everyone playing 3025-MWO knows that these explode regularly, esp. the Atlas-D with it's left torso (RT at a lesser degree but still). No CASE with several tons of ammo in the side torsos isn't a rare sight in 3025.

Never use stock mechs for these tests...get a buddy and do lobby tests to get accurate results on "real-world" mechs. Also armor values in testing grounds...most mechs barely have 50% armor. E.g. Cicada legs only have like 14pts or so.

Edited by Exard3k, 13 February 2017 - 07:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Exard3k, on 13 February 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

Never test things like crits and damage on mechs in the testing grounds. They got stock builds and everyone playing 3025-MWO knows that these explode regularly, esp. the Atlas-D with it's left torso (RT at a lesser degree but still).

Never use stock mechs for these tests...get a buddy and do lobby tests to get accurate results on "real-world" mechs. Also armor values in testing grounds...most mechs barely have 50% armor. E.g. Cicada legs only have like 14pts or so.

Okay, so I'll just shoot the legs of every ballistics-carrying IS 'Mech in the live game after this rolls out.

ggez?