79 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

Kael Posavatz, on 15 February 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

Shall we see what happens to lore when the timeline advances?

The Map should get...interesting.

The degree of interesting will depend, of course, upon whether they decide to go all the way to 3068 or just stop at 3060.

Tech wise I believe Russ has stated 3068, no mention on what is going to happen to the FW map though.

[Kael Posavatz]

Carl Vickers, on 15 February 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

Tech wise I believe Russ has stated 3068, no mention on what is going to happen to the FW map though.

Judging what the CW map looked like when it first released, the Map will resemble 3025 with the addition of Clan Wave I corridors.

[Carl Vickers]

Kael Posavatz, on 15 February 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Judging what the CW map looked like when it first released, the Map will resemble 3025 with the addition of Clan Wave I corridors.

Do you mean the 3050 map when the clan invasion corridors? Im not sure they can advance the map to where the tech level is going to be due to some factions getting removed completely.

[The Errant]

Husker Dude, on 15 February 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Mech customization is pretty much the best feature of this game, I can't think of another game that offers as much freedom to build your own.

The Armored Core series, starting from PS1 and going to PS3. Made by the studio that would go on to make Dark Souls. Most customization in a mech game I've ever seen. Unfortunately after the PS3 games took the series online the pvp systems have been so universally bad that it's basically put the franchise in a coma. FROM Software says they have to eventually do another AC title, as before the Souls series it was their flagship IP. Here's hoping.

Edited by The Errant, 15 February 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[Emeraudes]

The Errant, on 15 February 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

The Armored Core series, starting from PS1 and going to PS3. Made by the studio that would go on to make Dark Souls. Most customization in a mech game I've ever seen. Unfortunately after the PS3 games took the series online the pvp systems have been so universally bad that it's basically put the franchise in a coma. FROM Software says they have to eventually do another AC title, as before the Souls series it was their flagship IP. Here's hoping.

You'd be surprised at what AC5 offered, stability as a stat improved weapon cycle times. Ultra high stability stats meant shotguns fired as fast as rifles. They didn't really dumb down customization, they changed what each stat affected.

Anyway, yes so ridiculous custom builds were what made me really get into the series too. MW2: Mercenaries made me favour energy weapons because of ammunition cost per mission. And then in this game, where the per sortie ammo cost is gone, I've learnt to diversify my loadouts.

But I will probably never make a mech that doesn't specialize in a specific range loadout in this kind of game due to the way everything runs in real time. Heat dissipates as you fire your weapon and run your cycle times, it doesn't carry over to the "next turn".

[ice trey]

Currently, the reason that I don't play stock matches is simply because PGI made it a pain in the *** to do so.

Even QP and FP can be click-and-go. In order to do a stock-only match, you have to find someone personally and set up a private match. That's way too damn much when we've had matchmaking in multiplayer games since the 90s. It's like going back to 1V1 modem matches.

If FP were limited to stock only, I think it would be awesome. Not only would it be truer to the lore, but locking out customization (At least, for the components, not for the paintjobs) would allow better tracking of performance of each chassis and balancing them against each-other appropriately. Not by tonnage or C-bills, but by frequency that they are chosen by the community. If something is good, everyone will take it, so the value goes up, meaning it's harder to field it, and things balance out. If something is bad, the value goes down, meaning it's easier to field it, and things balance out again. Like a free-market economy based purely on frequency that something is chosen by the community at large.

Further, "Faction benefits" would be easier to apply, encouraging players from certain houses/clans to take units more available to their particular faction.

[MischiefSC]

Yes, but how would you find a match with the 6 other people who want to play stock mech matches?

Maybe you can do 3v3 and a spectator?

As a one off one in 100 matches when I'm bored, sure. As a default anything?

As has been shown repeatedly only bad tiny handful would play it.

[Kael Posavatz]

Carl Vickers, on 15 February 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Do you mean the 3050 map when the clan invasion corridors? Im not sure they can advance the map to where the tech level is going to be due to some factions getting removed completely.

If we used the 3050 map it'd piss off all the FS and LC loyalists. On the other hand if we went full 3068 we could have woblies as a faction.

A little modifications to the graphics and Long Toms could return in the guise of 'nuclear weapons'. That would be a blast, don't you think?

[The Errant]

Emeraudes, on 15 February 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

You'd be surprised at what AC5 offered, stability as a stat improved weapon cycle times. Ultra high stability stats meant shotguns fired as fast as rifles. They didn't really dumb down customization, they changed what each stat affected.

Yeah I played it pretty hardcore on PS3 side for a while actually, though I never picked up Verdict Day. I led Garage Vanguard, we were small and only a few of us were really active but we got our name on the map once or twice. I honestly really liked the game engine and the combat itself, including the rock/paper/scissors aspect of weapons and armor to where you had to get creative with your loadouts to make a build that could take on all comers.

The territory system was really cool but a few units figured out how to exploit the system withering down territories and having people there to grab them up when they went neutral, which was normally when I and my unit were asleep or at work. And if you caught them in time, trying to defend your territory took so long to ever get a match, and when you did you were always up against the same single cookie-cutter meta build all the time. That's what killed the game for me. Yeah I guess I could have just focused on the solo arena or done scrims between teams but the unit and territory systems were what I'd been looking forward to the most.

Edited by The Errant, 16 February 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

ice trey, on 16 February 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

locking out customization (At least, for the components, not for the paintjobs) would allow better tracking of performance of each chassis and balancing them against each-other appropriately. Not by tonnage or C-bills, but by frequency that they are chosen by the community. If something is good, everyone will take it, so the value goes up, meaning it's harder to field it, and things balance out.

So the common one is mechs that have LRMS with 2T of ammo and single DHS and a few Med/Sml lasers vs say a SHC or a Night Gyr that both meta builds from the outset - that would absolutely CREAM 90% of the battlefield


So then - how do you "balance" stock load outs?

Do you change the load outs?
or
Give them so many difficult/complex quirks you forever try to buff/debuff various mechs?

Either way, it's ridiculous.

MischiefSC, on 16 February 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Yes, but how would you find a match with the 6 other people who want to play stock mech matches?

Maybe you can do 3v3 and a spectator?

As a one off one in 100 matches when I'm bored, sure. As a default anything?

As has been shown repeatedly only bad tiny handful would play it.

Find a match?

Easy? According to naterist they are the "majority". So there should be no issue what so ever finding matches. Make a queue for the majority, let them sit there for hours on end never finding a game... Might take some of the terribads out of it and the true majority might actually get half decent games without the potato-build pilots wasting everyones time because "I will do it my way"

[MischiefSC]

justcallme A S H, on 16 February 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

So the common one is mechs that have LRMS with 2T of ammo and single DHS and a few Med/Sml lasers vs say a SHC or a Night Gyr that both meta builds from the outset - that would absolutely CREAM 90% of the battlefield


So then - how do you "balance" stock load outs?

Do you change the load outs?
or
Give them so many difficult/complex quirks you forever try to buff/debuff various mechs?

Either way, it's ridiculous.




Find a match?

Easy? According to naterist they are the "majority". So there should be no issue what so ever finding matches. Make a queue for the majority, let them sit there for hours on end never finding a game... Might take some of the terribads out of it and the true majority might actually get half decent games without the potato-build pilots wasting everyones time because "I will do it my way"

Except we know that's not true.

I'd get a giggle out of the occasional derp match in stock mechs. Nobody is going to seriously say the mode should play that way though.

[justcallme A S H]

MischiefSC, on 16 February 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Except we know that's not true.

I'd get a giggle out of the occasional derp match in stock mechs. Nobody is going to seriously say the mode should play that way though.

We? Are you speaking for, the, majority?

Be careful doing that. Someone else has been well and truly caught out making up some furphies. You better be certain of doing such things.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 February 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I'll take the risk.

[Carl Vickers]

Kael Posavatz, on 16 February 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

If we used the 3050 map it'd piss off all the FS and LC loyalists. On the other hand if we went full 3068 we could have woblies as a faction.

A little modifications to the graphics and Long Toms could return in the guise of 'nuclear weapons'. That would be a blast, don't you think?

Lol, nice pun. I dont think LT will be making a visit to MWO again any time soon.

No matter what map we use, we will always have some not happies due to some factions being left out. PGI didnt bring in Comstar so I dont see them bringing in the Wobbies. A map change would be nice though, what would be nicer is making taking a planet worth something more than just having your tag on a planet.

[ice trey]

justcallme A S H, on 16 February 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

So the common one is mechs that have LRMS with 2T of ammo and single DHS and a few Med/Sml lasers vs say a SHC or a Night Gyr that both meta builds from the outset - that would absolutely CREAM 90% of the battlefield


So then - how do you "balance" stock load outs?

Do you change the load outs?
or
Give them so many difficult/complex quirks you forever try to buff/debuff various mechs?

Either way, it's ridiculous.

Only because I don't think you read my post.
Is a mech being used more often than the average? Boost it's tonnage 「value」by five tons when selecting mechs.

If a mech is not being taken as often, drop the tonnage value by five tons.

If five tons sends a mech from above average to below average, halve the increment and backtrack.

[justcallme A S H]

I read it - it's just ridiculous. Boost it's tonnage value?

You're going to make a SHC a 55-60T mech because it dominates? And against a LRM boating Assault, that is what it will do. Or make a Night Gyr 85-90T because it tears other rubbish loadout mech apart?

Or a LRM stalker with Med lasers becomes 70T mech with 90T of armour?

Come on. You can't seriously think this is logical step to take.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 February 2017 - 08:50 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Refuse to vote because FP died for me with the Long Tom and some other things.
Despite the Long Tom being gone, there are still problems in my view.
MANY problems.
I'm just not invested enough to do anything about them anymore.
Come next month if all goes as HBS plans, I'll be in the Beta there.

[ice trey]

There is no reason it wouldn't be.
You take the high cost mechs, you have less to work with.
When it costs enough to take that players choose the OP mechs as often as the underpowered ones, you've balanced the game.

Simply saying 「you can't be serious」doesn't a counterarguement make.

If a 55 ton mech is op, why shouldn't it be appropriately balanced against other designs until every unit is equally desirable? Why not have underperforming heavies be allowed in scout missions, and op mediums pushed out?

So long as a battle-value system is too scary for laymen, scaling tonnage values based on frequency of community use is the next best thing.

Edited by ice trey, 16 February 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Yet in the background you have all the weapon balance that is also occurring because comp matches will still be about custom/meta builds. So an every changing playing field there that also changes when different mechs are released (AKA: UAC Nerf due to KDK).

So now you have 3 things to balance.

1. Quirks
2. Weapons

And now

3. Mech "ton" values.


PGI struggle as it is to balance the first 2 a lot of the time, adding in another level of complexity to it all each time something changes? Just so 14% of people can waste time on a mode that'll never make the light of day because a minority population (14%) within a mode that already has a low population... Right.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 16 February 2017 - 09:32 PM.

[ice trey]

justcallme A S H, on 16 February 2017 - 09:32 PM, said:

Yet in the background you have all the weapon balance that is also occurring because comp matches will still be about custom/meta builds. So an every changing playing field there that also changes when different mechs are released (AKA: UAC Nerf due to KDK).

So now you have 3 things to balance.

1. Quirks
2. Weapons

And now

3. Mech "ton" values.


PGI struggle as it is to balance the first 2 a lot of the time, adding in another level of complexity to it all each time something changes? Just so 14% of people can waste time on a mode that'll never make the light of day because a minority population (14%) within a mode that already has a low population... Right.

They need to automate it. Base it on weekly averages.
Bam, done. If this much 「complexity」is an issue, people need to stop playing spreadsheet warrior and trying to make 「perfect」dropdecks.
Weren't they moving away from using quirks, anyway?
If the reason that options are being invalidated it because pgi are slow and incompetent, I think any solution is going to be a lost cause.

Of course, I based this idea on fp being locked into stock mode since that eliminates having to consider alternate configurations, but with people copying everyone's meta builds, it's pretty much the same effect as everything being stock.

Edited by ice trey, 16 February 2017 - 10:14 PM.