56 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

soapyfrog, on 21 February 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

This btw is a HUGE no no, way worse than charging c-bills for respec. You should never ever ever lose xp on a mech. Ever.

That charge for a significant respec could require dozens of games to recover. I would much MUCh rather just pay a c-bill fee which is one and done, but even in that case why charge for respecs at all????

It's like they want to tax every bit of fun in the game.

How much is that going to hurt really?
400xp for one SP is nothing.
I think average of 1200-2400 xp per game will give you at least 3-6 SP worth. Top that with Champion bonus (30%), first-victory bonus (100%), or Premium Time (50%) will net you up to 10k sometimes.

Looking at how long it takes for people to get CBills for DHS, Endo or a new Engine... this is nothing worth thinking off.

I don't see a problem with this small XP cost at all, and I have over 180 mechs (not all mastered yet), so I will have to spend more than others on patchday.

[Roughneck45]

soapyfrog, on 21 February 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

This btw is a HUGE no no, way worse than charging c-bills for respec. You should never ever ever lose xp on a mech. Ever.

That charge for a significant respec could require dozens of games to recover. I would much MUCh rather just pay a c-bill fee which is one and done, but even in that case why charge for respecs at all????

It's like they want to tax every bit of fun in the game.

You got it backwards. The c-bill cost was the problem.

XP is used in one location, the skill tree. C-bills are for literally everything.

They want to encourage building a mech and leaving it that way. I'm okay with it.

Edited by Roughneck45, 21 February 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Tremendous Upside]

Malrock, on 21 February 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

That is why you keep the current skill tree and just add all the rest of the points onto it. See this thread https://mwomercs.com...ready-mastered/

Achieves everything they want to accomplish and prevents horrible results for people who have already mastered.

That's exactly what they "should" do. Create a system where they're not screwing over existing customers to benefit potential future ones. It's not like its rocket science. I just wish for once that PGI would put in a new feature and actually think it through instead of tossing spaghetti at the wall. It just reeks of indifference.

[soapyfrog]

Reno Blade, on 21 February 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

I think average of 1200-2400 xp per game will give you at least 3-6 SP worth. Top that with Champion bonus (30%), first-victory bonus (100%), or Premium Time (50%) will net you up to 10k sometimes.

That's not the average, the non premium average is more like 800xp, probably less tbh.

Roughneck45, on 21 February 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

They want to encourage building a mech and leaving it that way. I'm okay with it.

Erm... why....? There is literally no good game or business reason for doing that.

How about just let people do what they like and not try to constantly get in their way. Respec should be free.

[Roughneck45]

soapyfrog, on 21 February 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

Erm... why....? There is literally no good game or business reason for doing that.

Well it seems pretty clear they don't like the idea of swapping things in and out.

I'm sure the thought process is that you buy a mech, skill it for a specific build, then you get another build idea and have to decide if you want another mech dedicated for it or to respec.

The new respec cost seems fair to me. We have nothing else to spend XP on and if you pilot something enough that you like to swap the build around on it you'll have enough stored XP that it won't be an issue.

[soapyfrog]

Roughneck45, on 22 February 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

The new respec cost seems fair to me. We have nothing else to spend XP on and if you pilot something enough that you like to swap the build around on it you'll have enough stored XP that it won't be an issue.

Not necessarily, at least not with these high costs. More to the point, you should not have to spend xp anymore once you have mastered a mech! taht's why you went to all the trouble of mastering it in the first place!

If I am playing wow do I care about all the xp I am "wasting" by playing my max level characters? Of course not. The point of the xp was to get to max level so you don't have to worry about xp anymore, and you can focus on just playing the game.

Imagine if in wow when you changed spec you lost a level. It would be idiotic and no one would play.

[Roughneck45]

soapyfrog, on 22 February 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Not necessarily, at least not with these high costs. More to the point, you should not have to spend xp anymore once you have mastered a mech! taht's why you went to all the trouble of mastering it in the first place!

If I am playing wow do I care about all the xp I am "wasting" by playing my max level characters? Of course not. The point of the xp was to get to max level so you don't have to worry about xp anymore, and you can focus on just playing the game.

I understand the gripe, it just doesn't bother me. WoW characters =/= Mech trees.

I wouldn't call 400xp a high cost. The only way I see it being a problem is if you re skill your mech every few games, and even then it shouldn't be too bad. Its not like people will be changing the entire tree, most likely it will just be weapon stuff, and with them changing the weapon tree it will be even less to swap.

I see it as giving us something to do with XP that has been built up and useless for so long, if you didn't want to pay to convert it to gxp.

Edited by Roughneck45, 22 February 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[Grimlock Magnus]

One argument that is often overlooked: Under the new system, a fully mastered mech (properly specced) can outperform a currently mastered mech (in some cases even those with modules). We can argue about the type and amount, but I think it is only logical that a mastered mech under the new system costs more then a current mastered mech.

TL;DR: New System Mastered Mech > Current Mastered Mech.

[soapyfrog]

Grimlock Magnus, on 22 February 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

TL;DR: New System Mastered Mech > Current Mastered Mech.

If that is true then it is power creep and that is not good for the game either.

Roughneck45, on 22 February 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

I understand the gripe, it just doesn't bother me. WoW characters =/= Mech trees.

I wouldn't call 400xp a high cost. The only way I see it being a problem is if you re skill your mech every few games, and even then it shouldn't be too bad. Its not like people will be changing the entire tree, most likely it will just be weapon stuff, and with them changing the weapon tree it will be even less to swap.

I see it as giving us something to do with XP that has been built up and useless for so long, if you didn't want to pay to convert it to gxp.

It is a penalty pure and simple. It is not "something to do". You are not a hamster.

The cost is high. Let's say I respec a mere 12 out of 91 points, well that's 4800xp, non-premium average that is going to be about 6 or 7 matches, or about an hour of work to get back. That is a total drag. Worse, let's say I am respecing and then unlocking new nodes, the patch notes imply those new nodes are going to cost me 60k c-bills each.

That pretty much makes me want to put this game on the shelf forever, and it deeply saddens me.

[Roughneck45]

soapyfrog, on 22 February 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

It is a penalty pure and simple. It is not "something to do". You are not a hamster.

The cost is high. Let's say I respec a mere 12 out of 91 points, well that's 4800xp, non-premium average that is going to be about 6 or 7 matches, or about an hour of work to get back. That is a total drag. Worse, let's say I am respecing and then unlocking new nodes, the patch notes imply those new nodes are going to cost me 60k c-bills each.

That pretty much makes me want to put this game on the shelf forever, and it deeply saddens me.

Still think you are being overly dramatic about it.

Those numbers don't sound high to me, at all.

We only have one game mode really, kill the other team. We're all "hamsters".

Edited by Roughneck45, 22 February 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Grimlock Magnus]

I kind of like my treadmill.

Edited by Grimlock Magnus, 22 February 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[ForceUser]

It's very simple. What happens right after you change the build on a mech? I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the quick play button.

Now what is the natural result of pressing the quick play button? Cbills and XP of course!

Currently, what do you DO with the XP after you've mastered a mech?

Anyone?

That's right! Nothing! Whoo you win a prize!

SO explain to me how that XP being used for something now is a bad thing.

Edited by ForceUser, 22 February 2017 - 04:49 PM.

[soapyfrog]

That is completely circular reasoning. There needs to be an XP sink because XP exists.

Here's my proposal.

- skill tree exists as they have proposed
- skill nodes cost one skill point to unlock
- you gain one skill point to assign for free every 800xp you use (probably should be 650 so as not to increase the grind)
- once you have 91 skill points you stop getting xp and you just get a small amount of gxp per match
- skill points can be moved around at will without cost

Now you can respec for free, you never have a pesky extra resource building up that bothers you, and you can use your stored gxp to max out other mechs quickly if you wish.

Alternately, even simpler, allow players to pay c-bills to convert extra xp to gxp. There you go, combined c-bill and xp sink, just for you!

[Malrock]

soapyfrog, on 22 February 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

If that is true then it is power creep and that is not good for the game either.

Oh there should be no question what so ever that it is true. The new mastery trees give your mech more power than the old tree, in a pretty big way. Just the armor tree alone does a pretty good job of that. Everyone gets quite a bit tankier. In the old system you could have maybe 2 modules and 2 weapon mods. In the new one you can have 8 or so modules and 8 weapon module equivalencies. Time to live on the PTS went way up except for the crit issues.

[ForceUser]

Malrock, on 22 February 2017 - 10:27 PM, said:

Oh there should be no question what so ever that it is true. The new mastery trees give your mech more power than the old tree, in a pretty big way. Just the armor tree alone does a pretty good job of that. Everyone gets quite a bit tankier. In the old system you could have maybe 2 modules and 2 weapon mods. In the new one you can have 8 or so modules and 8 weapon module equivalencies. Time to live on the PTS went way up except for the crit issues.

For a game with huge TTK issues (it being waaay to short), isn't this a good thing? Or should we aim for TTK to go down further? I mean who really wants to live for longer than 20 seconds anyways.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ForceUser, on 23 February 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

For a game with huge TTK issues (it being waaay to short)

So you want brawling to be the only good way to play?

[Malrock]

ForceUser, on 23 February 2017 - 07:28 AM, said:

For a game with huge TTK issues (it being waaay to short), isn't this a good thing? Or should we aim for TTK to go down further? I mean who really wants to live for longer than 20 seconds anyways.

The change in TTK becoming longer isn't a problem (although you don't need a skill tree to accomplish this, an across the board armor buff would do it just as well), my point was that this demonstrates how much more power we have with the new tree vs the old one. The problem isn't even that the new tree offers more power - at least in my opinion, but soapy had a different opinion in his post. The problem is the c bill gating and respec costs. My thinking is that because we are getting more power we could be expected to pay for the power in excess of what we have now. But we shouldn't have our previous grind invalidated. To prevent invalidated prior grind we would need approximately 72 skill points unlocked under the current system for each mastered mech we own thereby allowing us to just pay for the new power or approximately 20 points worth.