86 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Cygone, on 18 February 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

Played 5 games this evening,

5 Losses

20+ TRIAL Mechs on my team EVERY GAME

WTF are TRIAL 'Mechs allowed in FP!!!!!!

PGI Needs to limit FP to MASTERED 'Mechs or above ONLY

Woah woah woah, lets not get carried away. Don't go limiting drop deck choices when a simple minimum games played or something like that can be done. I like leveling mechs in FP. Or well I did... Haven't leveled any mechs lately and I'm hoping they change FP to have the classic FP modes more often (its always respawn QP style when I play so mostly just been scouting and QP).

[justcallme A S H]

Banning trials is a sure fire way to prove - potato.

I can, and have, cranked 1800dmg regularly in full trial decks. It is the PILOT SKILL that matters far more than the mech itself. Go join a unit, learn to be a better pilot. That is where the gap is.

And no units accept new players? People won't help train? Rubbish.

I can only think of maybe 2-3 units that DON'T take on green players into their groups but that is about it. Everyone else is more than sociable. It's how I learnt FP afterall - get on TS, hop around, ask to join in if people have room. Better the PUG in your group than the random one in a drop.

[MischiefSC]

Appogee, on 19 February 2017 - 02:03 AM, said:

Cue the usual responses from those who enjoy the farming:

"It's hard core mode. Git Gud."
"You ignored the warning dialogue so it's your own fault."
"It's the mode meant for groups. Join a group."
"You can't complain because you didn't use voice comes to guide the potatoes."
"The potatoes won't get better if they're not allowed to play."
"We camp your spawn with long range weapons to get the match over with quickly for you."

(I think I covered the main ones?)

But anyway, it's true that FP is designed to be group mode. Doesn't mean it can't be improved however, both for groups and soloists. I think everyone - from large groups to soloists of limited skill, and everyone in between - could enjoy the mode more if there was group-size matchmaking, as I described above.

Failing that, stop people playing it solo. At least that will give people more experience of finding a group and playing in one.

Problem with matchmaking groups is 30 minute matches. It would take a huge population active to not have 10 minute waits to sync groups up - at which point it would then become you playing the exact same people again and again and again as you are sync-dropped against each other.

I've been chewing on how to get a MM for FW to work but it's all coming down to population. Chicken and the egg thing.

As to trial mechs... that's not the gateway. Sometimes people need trials, that's what they're there for. I'd say restrict it to over 300 matches solo or membership in a unit with an average of 300+ drops/active player or the like.

Then again, as I said before - the ideal goal would be having a way to get people into FW without learning to be bad at the game in QP, so you sorta want new people in FW. However currently it's a rough place to learn to play. A MM of sorts would help with that.... however, again. Chicken and the egg.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 February 2017 - 05:37 PM.

[Vxheous]

Ninjah, on 19 February 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Ok, let me clarify, I played for months if not years to buy the modules for every mech in my drop decks and now you want to nullify all my hard work, sorry it doesn't work that way and PGI knows it.

If every mech you own is moduled, you get a FULL refund for every c-bill spent on those modules. You should have easily 1 billion C-bills+ refund coming. The whole 9 million to skill out a mech hurts the players that only own a few radar dep/seismic and constantly stripped them off mechs to share across chassis

[BearFlag]

MischiefSC, on 19 February 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

I've been chewing on how to get a MM for FW to work but it's all coming down to population. Chicken and the egg thing.

While preferred, a player pool is not the only way. The question is would players be open to these other methods.

To be clear, when we talk about MM for FW we mean on a per match basis. PGI has thrown out a general (and not very effective) balance in drop deck weight. But it does nothing to mitigate wildly mismatched teams.

In one of the town halls Russ even talked about it briefly but was not liking the intrusive nature of some ideas. As I recall things like more turrets, stronger air strikes and the like were raised. That is, in-game buffs for the weaker team. The number and kind of aids is up for grabs.

A back up to the player pool is to use a mech pool. This would be easier without respawn. Each player would have a drop deck with one each light, medium, heavy and assault (with one "preferred"). After trying the player pool and still not finding balance, the MM could bump up/down to decide what tonnage goes in.

More complicated with respawn. To have a "pool" for the matchmaker to select from you'd now need a drop deck pool. This would mean players having several drop decks possibly arranged by weight - a 200, 225, 250, 275 ton deck for example. I imagine players would not like having the MM choose their deck, so....

Drop decks could be five or six mechs with the MM deciding which four go in. Perhaps, if each deck were six mechs, the two additional would specifically slot for one light and one assault. Obviously, the MM would have some big tonnage leeway for attempting some balance. It would remain to experience to see if this works none, some or all.

(In this latter case, a pilot would be guaranteed to go in with three of his preferred deck since only one substitution would ever be done per player.)

Edited by BearFlag, 19 February 2017 - 07:41 PM.

[Emeraudes]

Honiara, on 19 February 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

Ok, so Side 2 is very in balanced, but you are wrong about Side 1. you can change something, and that is the team size. it may be controversial, but it can also be changed.

Even changing the max size of the group you still need to balance the remaining variables

• Modules
  
• 'Mechs
  
• Commander
  
• Experience

So you can't remove the drop commander. so that's out.



limiting 'mechs is possible.. but whats the point? it limits mech purchasing. But you should limit trial 'mechs as that plays into experience item.

Now you can fix the module issue, that's easy, allow mastered 'mechs only.

Okay, so your proposal will allow for equipment to be potentially even. Potentially.

Realistically, pugs will still bring **** builds like a banshee I saw that had a PPC, AC10, 2 medium lasers and 1 machine gun. On top of that, there will still be pugs who do not listen to drop commanders. So by your balance, the mode will turn more into Quick Play but with respawns.

Is this the intention or do you believe my analysis of the actual outcome to be wrong?

Edit: Also, the skill-gap between players can sometimes mean that a single lance worth of better players could mean the difference between a close game and a complete stomp. There isn't really a way to balance that out without ostracizing the better capable minority in this game.

Edited by Emeraudes, 19 February 2017 - 07:54 PM.

[Spitfire 03]

It's
Not
The
Mechs

http://imgur.com/a/5Xydo

Trials should be, by all rights, acceptably decent. The community did vote on em.

Edited by Spitfire 03, 19 February 2017 - 09:50 PM.

[meteorol]

MischiefSC, on 19 February 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Then again, as I said before - the ideal goal would be having a way to get people into FW without learning to be bad at the game in QP, so you sorta want new people in FW.

Come one dude. The assumption that people are "learning to be bad in QP" and then come over to FW and ruin match quality is ridiculous, which you probably now.

The average CW puggel makes QP pugs look like god tier mlg players in comparison. It's not like CW is a fundamentely different game or way more difficult than QP. Someone who sucks at this game will suck no matter if he plays CW or QP.

Scrubtier players will be scrubtier players no matter if you put them into CW or QP first. For whatever reason, CW simply attracts a lot of scrubtier players.

[Emeraudes]

meteorol, on 19 February 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

Come one dude. The assumption that people are "learning to be bad in QP" and then come over to FW and ruin match quality is ridiculous, which you probably now.

The average CW puggel makes QP pugs look like god tier mlg players in comparison. It's not like CW is a fundamentely different game or way more difficult than QP. Someone who sucks at this game will suck no matter if he plays CW or QP.

Scrubtier players will be scrubtier players no matter if you put them into CW or QP first. For whatever reason, CW simply attracts a lot of scrubtier players.

I disagree with this, their aim and piloting are equally bad. Their map awareness is also just as terrible. The difference is primarily in the co-ordination of the enemy team.

These new players are being killed faster and dealing less significant damage because they're peeking out into full firing lines that single them as a targets. And on top of being unable to spread damage at all, they usually push too far out and cannot get back to cover before losing 1/2 their mech or dying.

The notion that they're significantly worse is brought about simply because of the ability to respawn. Let's just say a regular player dies first during the first wave, he waits to group up before pushing out and fighting. The newbie will instantly reinforce the failing frontlines and die again. This happens twice more during the match, the new player would die faster and faster because he's essentially committing suicide by going into fights out of synch with the rest of the team constantly. Then by the 2nd or 3rd wave, you'll realise that he's out of mechs and is relegated to watching for the next 15mins at best.

That's what Mischief was talking about by QP creates bad habits.

[Buckstop]

Trial assaults should not exist.

[Buckstop]

...also, trial mechs should not be heavily LRM boated.

Trial mechs should not have gauss rifles at all. Anyone who voted for trial mechs
having gauss rifles is sadistic.

Trial lights should not have bad engines or PPCs. They should often have ecm and
lots of brawly pulse weapons, machine guns and srms.

No trial light should have LRMs.

No trial light should be slower than 100kph.

All trial mechs should have radar dep standard that can't be removed.

[Honiara]

Emeraudes, on 19 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Okay, so your proposal will allow for equipment to be potentially even. Potentially.

Potentially yes. but as you say...

Emeraudes, on 19 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Realistically, pugs will still bring **** builds like a banshee I saw that had a PPC, AC10, 2 medium lasers and 1 machine gun. On top of that, there will still be pugs who do not listen to drop commanders. So by your balance, the mode will turn more into Quick Play but with respawns.

Yes this is true, but it does hold true for both sides, the idea was to bring into balance both sides as much as possible within the constraints of the game.

Emeraudes, on 19 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Is this the intention or do you believe my analysis of the actual outcome to be wrong?

No you are correct. think we are confirming the same thing here.

Emeraudes, on 19 February 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Edit: Also, the skill-gap between players can sometimes mean that a single lance worth of better players could mean the difference between a close game and a complete stomp. There isn't really a way to balance that out without ostracizing the better capable minority in this game.

Indeed, that's gaming

Edited by Honiara, 20 February 2017 - 12:53 AM.

[Emeraudes]

Honiara, on 20 February 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

Yes this is true, but it does hold true for both sides, the idea was to bring into balance both sides as much as possible within the constraints of the game.

Ok, so here's the fundamental difference in line of though from everyone(myself included) who has disagreed with you and everyone who agrees with you.

We're weighing the loss in freedom of play for the POSSIBILITY of more even matches. To claim the previous group size, units will attempt to synch drop. IS will perpetually be fighting at least one cluster of people who are ultimately the swing factor in all matches and the previous hope of winning will also be split into the same groups making the situation mostly the same.

I believe nobody would disagree with the changes suggested IF it was ABSOLUTELY going to improve match quality. Due to the fact that closer matches means more playtime for the general populous compared to stomps(followed by a 10min queue time). But we're not going to sacrifice for possibility, not even a good possibility. At this stage, a change HAS to be certain because if this fails, it'll be a failure amongst the multitude of problems that the gamemode already has that the better capable population has already adapted to circumvent within their own games(Operation: Great Dane being an example of solving the low playing population by an event to synchronize playtimes worldwide).

Throwing us one MORE problem to fix after we've had to do the job of the Devs for them.

[C E Dwyer]

I suspect a lot of people that have to fill out their decks with Trials do it, because of the level of mech bays people start with, and they're trying to get more.

Four mech bays means it's impossible to play FW with out trials unless you sell all but one of your mechs each time, and then endlessly grind C-bills to buy back what you mastered.

I can see why people don't want trial mechs in FW but the only way to reduce it, is to remove mech bays as rewards, and I think if P.G.I take this route they should retrograde remove all Mech bays from players won through FW.

Because clearly New players need to be supported if this game is going to continue, and not be slagged off for doing things vet players didn't have to endure, as we all had a stable of mechs before FW started.

This self sacrifice shows that while they shouldn't have this oppotunity for free mechbays through the end game. This shows solidarity to the people that this game needs to be healthy by the vets surrendering yet another advantage they had over them.

[Vxheous]

Cathy, on 20 February 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

I suspect a lot of people that have to fill out their decks with Trials do it, because of the level of mech bays people start with, and they're trying to get more.

Four mech bays means it's impossible to play FW with out trials unless you sell all but one of your mechs each time, and then endlessly grind C-bills to buy back what you mastered.

I can see why people don't want trial mechs in FW but the only way to reduce it, is to remove mech bays as rewards, and I think if P.G.I take this route they should retrograde remove all Mech bays from players won through FW.

Because clearly New players need to be supported if this game is going to continue, and not be slagged off for doing things vet players didn't have to endure, as we all had a stable of mechs before FW started.

This self sacrifice shows that while they shouldn't have this oppotunity for free mechbays through the end game. This shows solidarity to the people that this game needs to be healthy by the vets surrendering yet another advantage they had over them.

[Carl Vickers]

Cathy, on 20 February 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

I suspect a lot of people that have to fill out their decks with Trials do it, because of the level of mech bays people start with, and they're trying to get more.

Four mech bays means it's impossible to play FW with out trials unless you sell all but one of your mechs each time, and then endlessly grind C-bills to buy back what you mastered.

I can see why people don't want trial mechs in FW but the only way to reduce it, is to remove mech bays as rewards, and I think if P.G.I take this route they should retrograde remove all Mech bays from players won through FW.

Because clearly New players need to be supported if this game is going to continue, and not be slagged off for doing things vet players didn't have to endure, as we all had a stable of mechs before FW started.

This self sacrifice shows that while they shouldn't have this oppotunity for free mechbays through the end game. This shows solidarity to the people that this game needs to be healthy by the vets surrendering yet another advantage they had over them.

[MischiefSC]

meteorol, on 19 February 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

Come one dude. The assumption that people are "learning to be bad in QP" and then come over to FW and ruin match quality is ridiculous, which you probably now.

The average CW puggel makes QP pugs look like god tier mlg players in comparison. It's not like CW is a fundamentely different game or way more difficult than QP. Someone who sucks at this game will suck no matter if he plays CW or QP.

Scrubtier players will be scrubtier players no matter if you put them into CW or QP first. For whatever reason, CW simply attracts a lot of scrubtier players.

That's where you're wrong. I see and play with people in QP who are 'mediocre' in QP and are absolutely terribad in FW. It is different - because if you're playing cautious, letting your teammates soak the damage and hoping to farm some kills in FW you're *at best* dead weight where as in QP you're probably a solid 1.2 W/L or KDR player. Mechs that are serviceable in QP are absolute trash in FW and vice versa. Dropping an assault on the last wave makes you an absolute idiot in FW but from QP logic (come in and mop up the damaged mechs for kills) probably makes sense.

It's the mentality and fundamental behaviors in QP. Don't trust your teammates, don't go first, go slow and poke when you can, pick off the stragglers first, if a teammate is getting ganked leave him to it and maybe try to backstab one of the people killing him, all of that. It's terrible behavior in FW. The 'linger in the back' guys. There's a lot of names from QP who are in the top 4 pretty often there who are rarely able to break 1K in FW.

Positioning in FW isn't the same as positioning in QP. Play cautious is often a terrible, terrible idea. There's a lot of differences and many of them are pretty critical.

Yes, there's some absolute terribads - in both QP and FW. Pug teams however lose to units not because they can't aim - but because none of them wants to go first in the gate, most of them brought builds designed to stay back and shoot enemies who are either hanging back themselves or shooting someone else, most of them either don't have VOIP on or just ignore what's called when they do, above all else they are resistant to acting like a team.

The teams that win all the time are not comprised of players with perfect aim and pure meta decks. It's incredibly disingenuous to say that teams almost universally beat pugs because players with tags, what, just aim better? Focus fire better?

QP teaches people not to play as a team. They take that attitude to FW and people who do play as a team stomp the **** out of them. That's it.

[justcallme A S H]

Lol remove mechbays as grind achievements..

[Pat Kell]

MischiefSC, on 20 February 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

QP teaches people not to play as a team. They take that attitude to FW and people who do play as a team stomp the **** out of them. That's it.

Let's shorten your post down to a clear concise point that everyone can read quickly and understand while still being 100% right.

[LordNothing]

Spitfire 03, on 19 February 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

It's
Not
The
Mechs

http://imgur.com/a/5Xydo

Trials should be, by all rights, acceptably decent. The community did vote on em.

it can be, lol

*this post is satire

Edited by LordNothing, 20 February 2017 - 05:16 AM.