58 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

With your two solo kills, they should also equal two KMDD, along with 5 killing blows and 362 damage should still give you a nice 200-240k payout. Not sure what you're complaining about

[Chuck Jager]

It is balanced this way. I remember a match in a good group where I only fired 7-8 time and got 3 kills by pure luck before it was over in less than 4minutes.

There are a ton of bonuses that are made to promote group play. The system is made to not overly reward hunting weak targets in a solo light or sniping from a distance. Winning also pays more, but that is averaged over many games not the exceptions.

[Dremnon]

Not saying it specifically to you or your game, but most people that are able to get 5 kills on 362 dmg are usually relying on those getting match scores of 0 kills 7 assists and 600 dmg to open up mechs in order to get those kills. Can't help but wonder of those 5 kills you had how many are KMDD's?

As far as playing smart goes, there should be no reward. If you're in the back sniping on open mechs and making everyone else be a target and not contributing to opening up the mechs you're killing, there shouldn't be a bonus for that.

As far as damage done goes, should folks in LRM boats sitting 900m back get paid the same as folks in mechs built for brawling do the same amount of damage get paid the same? No they shouldn't, there should be another Cbill cost for damage taken during a match as well for those contributing their armor to their team.

[justcallme A S H]

Yep 364dmg / 5 kills just means that someone else has the dmg. Coming in after someone has done all the work should not constitute a huge payout. The people that actually did the work, took components etc, that should be paid more and likely would've been.

Dremnon, on 19 February 2017 - 05:42 PM, said:

As far as damage done goes, should folks in LRM boats sitting 900m back get paid the same as folks in mechs built for brawling do the same amount of damage get paid the same? No they shouldn't, there should be another Cbill cost for damage taken during a match as well for those contributing their armor to their team.

Generally the LRM boat sitting in the back does 1/4 - 1/3 the amount of dmg as everyone else. So in that respect it's doing it's job.

A LRM Boat 300-450M up the front will do a lot more dmg, and thus, get paid more as that is effective use of the weapon and allows people less time to hide.

[El Bandito]

WTF is OP complaining about? 200K per match is already above average pay for 2 solo kills. Also, damage doesn't pay much. I had 700 damage done in a game and my pay was less than 200K.

[Ted Wayz]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 19 February 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

With your two solo kills, they should also equal two KMDD, along with 5 killing blows and 362 damage should still give you a nice 200-240k payout. Not sure what you're complaining about

If you are willing to accept less you will never be disappointed.

Get off the "doesn't sound bad to me" and think of what rewarding damage is keeping us from. Mechs having roles for one. MWO being anything but meet in the middle and bash each others heads in for two.

Rewarding damage makes this game dumb.

[Minasojo]

There is alot I don't understand about the current system, though I would agree that Damage Done is pretty much, at the least, one of the cornerstones upon which your Match Score and C-bills can be earned. (Generally speaking, higher damage dealers are likely to be earning the big KMDD reward)

Whats weird I think is how it may (or may not??) play into your ability to rise in the Tier system.

While composing this post it occurred to me that there isn't an entry for Average Damage Done...so I dug into my profile stats, found my most played mechs (setting a threshold of at least 100 matches played) and did a little math, here was my results (Current, not archived):

MADIIC Prime: 159 Matches, Avg Dmg 629

WHK Prime: 231 Matches, Avg Dmg 369
WHK A: 233 Matches, Avg Dmg 434
WHK B: 154 Matchces, Avg Dmg 414
WHK C: 165 Matches, Avg Dmg 444

Stalker 3H: 220 Matches, Avg Dmg 504

Additionally, I'm not exactly sure how to tell when the Tier system was introduced, though here is a snapshot of the info I have available from the available Season Statistics (to give an idea of my Match Scores):

Spoiler

Overall I've learned that despite 2216 total (Current, not archived) matches played. 374 total matches from Seasons 5-8 (see Snapshot above for Stats) and no recorded matches for Seasons 1-4, yet despite the Damage, Scores, Victories..

Still Tier 2.

Edit (Final Thought): I've lurked the forums for awhile and from observation, it seems like others have risen to Tier 1 with far fewer matches played - or is it just me and I'm not playing as much as those others actually do?

Hopefully my pool of data can help us understand it a little more.

Edited by Minasojo, 19 February 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Minasojo, on 19 February 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

Still Tier 2.

Moving up in tier is all about match score. Not how much DMG you spray around the place (hence LRM boaters, go nowhere).

So - go out and strip components, get the KMDDs, get the solo kills. Those are things that matter, not just spraying dmg all around a mech. You do 800dmg in a match without kills, components etc, you'll do worst than if you did 500dmg but met all the above. It is NOT all about damage. It's about effective damage.

You should be aiming for 4-8 component destroyed, 1-2 solo kills and 2-4 KMDD a match. You'll be outta T2 in less than 100 games if so and it's easily doable.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 February 2017 - 07:05 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

I can LRM properly, plenty - plenty - cannot.


I don't think so - I know so. That is why I went from mid T2 to a max T1 bar in 100 matches, maybe less. Didn't take long at all to be honest. Hunted torso's, I can usually solo 2 mech with relative ease (knowing how to torso twist etc). And thus the KMDD just comes along for the ride.

Check the leaderboard stats. My Avg Match score is 350 or so. That is "max" rise, each time. If youre Avg Match score is above 200 you'll climb, slowly. 150-180 you'll be stagnant/slow moving or even backwards as you're having plenty of games where you're dropping heavily.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 19 February 2017 - 07:12 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

The game is a FPS, it's about shooting... I mean yeah there are some weak objectives in some modes... But there isn't much else.

Thst said run a NARC light, with tag. You can get paid exceptionally well without doing much damage in thst instance. NARC/Tag kills/assists etc are quite valuable also.

[Minasojo]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Shearing weapons/other components off enemies should be rewarded more than simple damage done. Backstabbing, flanking and ambushing should be rewarded more than simple damage done. Facetanking and holding aggro so that other team members can kill a big fat assault with less fear of being instagibbed should be rewarded more than simple damage done.

All high damage numbers tell me is that you managed to put your shots at least roughly on target, hopefully over the course of multiple fights. It doesn't tell me any other useful information. It can be very impressive, particularly if done with weapons that don't necessarily do a ton of damage or are limited by ammo supply, but it's a fairly uninteresting metric compared to how many times you've legged a pesky light and effectively taken away its ability to effectively harass and backstab and cap, how many times you've stripped a nasty UAC/20 off a Stormcrow and therefore reduced the threat it poses to you and the rest of your team significantly, or how many times you've put down a particularly dangerous opponent by outwitting him instead of outmuscling him.

Has the idea of weighting components with values been explored anywhere? For Example: Destruction of:Arms: Worth 10pts each, Legs 15pts each, CT 25pts each, RCT 35pts each. Destruction of Weapons/Equipment also getting their own point values too.

I know that the game can break down damage as "Flanking" and "Hit & Run", I wonder if they can associate whether or not a Kill or component destruction was accomplished while performing these actions and provide a higher grade of reward...a Kill while "Scouting" could be considered a Sniper Kill, no?

Edited by Minasojo, 19 February 2017 - 07:37 PM.

[LordNothing]

class based scoring. assaults should get more points from damage and kills, scouts should get more points for recon duties.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Hmmm...so, just capitalize the said advantage you say you have.

You kill enemies faster, you do it more safely leaving you with more health. So just go on and do more of that stuff. You deal more damage, you get more cbills.

I don't fully believe you. If you have an advantage then you should have an advantage.


There is one strong disparity about the scoring system.

The game favours damage and assosiated things a lot over winning.

Of course there are some good points about that kind of system too. Players are more prone to watch their own single battle score, so rewarding that, gives what many prefer.

Rewarding winning, it's more abstract, as in any single battle, the outcome is largely result of actions of other players, which can be considered random enviromental effect, much less than actions of any single player. Yes, better players win more, but that concept is more abstart, less tangible.

I can see from your leaderboard scores, that you win well, above average times, but your average match score is rather low. So on average, your damage is low, and thus cbill rewards too. You should try to farm more damage, lean back more, use your team more as buffer, many of them won't mind a bit that. You survive longer and thus deal more damage. You have the skill to do it.

Also consider getting a heavy, they deal quite well damage over mediums and lights, and they are not as vunerable as assults.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 19 February 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

The only real objective in this game is killing everything with red dorito above it, i.e. damage is the only thing that matters.

However, there are different types of damage and effective killing isn't tracked in the game at all. What should be measured is the % of your damage that went into components that caused death for enemy mech. I.e. if it was a Std engine mech that died while losing both STs and a CT then only CT damage should be considered "effective". However, there is a different side to it, as stripping both sides of a mech like say a Stalker is easier than blowing its CT off and it also nearly always "mutes" the mech then stripping sides can also be considered "effective", i.e. the destruction of weaponry should also be considered.

Now, PSR is fubar by design so there is no point in discussing it, but if you want to talk about real "skill measuring" system then its a complicated matter, and like with everything complicated and everything that requires effort you can bet that PGI isn't gonna bother.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 20 February 2017 - 12:56 AM.

[FireStoat]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

I'm a little hazy on what exactly constitutes "Hit & Run" and why it merits a reward, but whatever.

It took me a while to figure some of these out. 'Hit and Run' appears to be triggered when you unload a burst of damage on a target without taking any return fire, but a time lapse happens between your damage dealt and no further damage happening from you for a time. In a game that emphasizes trading shots, you're putting your team ahead (in theory) by delivering damage without taking any (your team total tonnage armor vs theirs).

Flanking is the deal of an enemy mech being fired upon by a friend and you're shooting the same mech from an arc of fire that is sufficiently diametric from your ally's placement. It's a theory of teamwork in that both of you are focusing on the target from wildly opposing arcs so the enemy can only return fire on one of you - the reward being delivered in that you're using a sound tactic with a buddy. Flanking doesn't seem to ever be triggered if you are standing right next to your friend while both of you are shooting forward at the target.

Scouting you seem to have nailed down - I agree with your definition. I get some healthy bonuses from UAV spotting though if I get my timing right from it. Since AMS doesn't appear to award anything I stopped carrying it on my Kit Fox. More guns = more damage = more end game score.

Edited by FireStoat, 20 February 2017 - 01:04 AM.

[Albino Boo]

Minasojo, on 19 February 2017 - 06:38 PM, said:

There is alot I don't understand about the current system, though I would agree that Damage Done is pretty much, at the least, one of the cornerstones upon which your Match Score and C-bills can be earned. (Generally speaking, higher damage dealers are likely to be earning the big KMDD reward)

Whats weird I think is how it may (or may not??) play into your ability to rise in the Tier system.

While composing this post it occurred to me that there isn't an entry for Average Damage Done...so I dug into my profile stats, found my most played mechs (setting a threshold of at least 100 matches played) and did a little math, here was my results (Current, not archived):

MADIIC Prime: 159 Matches, Avg Dmg 629

WHK Prime: 231 Matches, Avg Dmg 369
WHK A: 233 Matches, Avg Dmg 434
WHK B: 154 Matchces, Avg Dmg 414
WHK C: 165 Matches, Avg Dmg 444

Stalker 3H: 220 Matches, Avg Dmg 504

Additionally, I'm not exactly sure how to tell when the Tier system was introduced, though here is a snapshot of the info I have available from the available Season Statistics (to give an idea of my Match Scores):

Spoiler

Overall I've learned that despite 2216 total (Current, not archived) matches played. 374 total matches from Seasons 5-8 (see Snapshot above for Stats) and no recorded matches for Seasons 1-4, yet despite the Damage, Scores, Victories..

Still Tier 2.

Edit (Final Thought): I've lurked the forums for awhile and from observation, it seems like others have risen to Tier 1 with far fewer matches played - or is it just me and I'm not playing as much as those others actually do?

Hopefully my pool of data can help us understand it a little more.

How quickly your PSR goes up is more dependant on what happens when you lose. You need to have done enough damage to get an equal or up arrow when you lose, to progress quickly Sounds to me like you are getting a small gain when you win and a big loss of rating when you lose. If getting that tier 1is important to you, run clan streak or srm mediums. That way you are sharing armour, increasing the team's chance of winning, but you will pick far more kmds and your win damage will go up, with a bit a of practice.

Edited by Albino Boo, 20 February 2017 - 01:31 AM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

>5 kills
>2 solo kills
>but only 362 damage done, so no 300k payout for you

The current system weights damage done far too heavily and actually doesn't reward smart play nearly as much as it could. People who go for back armor do less damage per kill, but more importantly they kill quicker and they kill while minimizing the enemy's ability to kill them. A player can practically farm up a ****-ton of damage done by hammering away at an Atlas' frontal armor, but unless that player is facetanking in a heavy/assault so that others are spared the enemy assault's wrath that's an exceedingly inefficient and unwise way of actually fighting.

If you're expecting 300k payout for that, I think you're greatly mistaken. It takes a hell of a lot of work to even get close to 300k, let alone breach it.

Edit: Oops, wrong link.



I think in its current state, damage may be over-represented in match score, but it's definitely not over-represented for CBill earnings. Component destruction, savior kills, KMDD and Solokill are worth far more than simple damage.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 20 February 2017 - 03:42 AM.

[Willard Phule]

It's all about the "lowest common denominators" and trying to get them enough money and XP to actually own a mech as quickly as possible.

The preferred weapon of the Potato is the "fire and forget" missile system. Don't have to aim, don't have to know how to move and shoot at the same time....heck, don't even have to pay attention to range (and don't tell me you haven't played with guys that think that zooming doubles their range). Just find a safe spot to park, hold locks and woosh woosh woosh your way to a "Knight Errant" title.

Just is what it is.

[Coolant]

In MW4:Mercs there was the most popular game mode called Team Battle and victory was ALL about points (damage + multipliers). Whichever team had the most points (the sum of all players on a team) won the match. How I wish there was that game mode in MWO.

(btw, the most popular game mode was Team Battle with unlimited respawn).

Edited by Coolant, 20 February 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[xe N on]

Focus on damage rewards heavy and assault mechs and punish medium and light mechs. The match score should have multiplicator: 4 for lights. 3 for meds. 2 for heavys and 1 for assaults.