71 replies to this topic

[Ruar]

Thank you for the replies. I didn't realize there was so much hidden armor/structure. I'll start going for the legs more. I just figured it's always better to go directly for ct/st for kill instead of legs to slow. However given the example about the wolf hound it makes sense I struggle with lights. I am used to spreading damage so I know I don't always get a full 27pts on one area, but when I do get solid shots it's frustrating to see so little damage effect happen.

As for the comments about my loadout. I get 1100m range with my LL and use STD engine to live longer. I found I almost always lose a ST before the CT so I hate XL engines. I don't use LPL because they are too short range for how I play and too hot. I appreciate the advice, but I do really well with my build and it fits me better than anything else I've tried. In the rare times when I play a heavy I have LPL on my grasshopper because it plays differently than my ENF.

Edited by Ruar, 20 February 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Ruar, on 20 February 2017 - 05:20 PM, said:

Thank you for the replies. I didn't realize there was so much hidden armor/structure. I'll start going for the legs more. I just figured it's always better to go directly for ct/st for kill instead of legs to slow. However given the example about the wolf hound it makes sense I struggle with lights. I am used to spreading damage so I know I don't always get a full 27pts on one area, but when I do get solid shots it's frustrating to see so little damage effect happen.

As for the comments about my loadout. I get 1100m range with my LL and use STD engine to live longer. I found I almost always lose a ST before the CT so I hate XL engines. I don't use LPL because they are too short range for how I play and too hot. I appreciate the advice, but I do really well with my build and it fits me better than anything else I've tried. In the rare times when I play a heavy I have LPL on my grasshopper because it plays differently than my ENF.

If you like to hang back with ERLLs, you should try to invest some time in learning how to use PPCs properly. Because ERLLs have a long burn time, this forces you to either stay still for longer to be more precise, or at least forces you to stay in the open for longer to get the full burn duration. PPCs let you pop off a shot and immediately go back into cover, doing full damage if it connects.

Lower exposure time means that you usually take far less damage to any exposed part, and this is where you can also grab a XL and go faster / turn faster / have more stuff on the mech.

[Ruar]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 20 February 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

If you like to hang back with ERLLs, you should try to invest some time in learning how to use PPCs properly. Because ERLLs have a long burn time, this forces you to either stay still for longer to be more precise, or at least forces you to stay in the open for longer to get the full burn duration. PPCs let you pop off a shot and immediately go back into cover, doing full damage if it connects.

Lower exposure time means that you usually take far less damage to any exposed part, and this is where you can also grab a XL and go faster / turn faster / have more stuff on the mech.

LL, not ERLL.

I don't hang back most of the time, but I found having 1000m range is necessary to contribute while the range is closing on most maps. I get a bonus to laser duration so the burn time isn't all that long. Add to that 30% range bonus, heat reduction, and cooldown and I do really good with my setup.

I actually started off trying PPC builds and found they are just too hot to allow me to stay constantly engaged. I attempted several mechs in both medium and heavy classes and none of them really worked for how I like to play. I like the ENF so much it's pretty much all I use I have 300 matches in it and 80 in a SHD which is the next closest.

My problem with lights isn't so much lasers but rather trying to understand why I sometimes struggle with killing lights when I can put fewer shots into a medium or heavy and get a kill. I think the answer is the latency and the hidden quirks I don't have memorized. Which ultimately means I need to go for legs first in order to get rid of the latency problems and then I can finish them off. I've had lights running away from me and I can get two volleys into the rear torsos without the torso dieing so it's most likely hidden structure combined with latency not showing up on my screen.

[Ruar]

SQW, on 20 February 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Look at it this way. Hitting a moving light on the same torso section with normal lasers would be equivalent to you head shot heavies and assault - the target area, factoring in movement, would be the same.

When was the last time you drilled a bunch of lasers into that ATLAS eye socket and the CT wireframe starts blinking instead?

Actually.... I've been able to pull off a few headshots on warhawks. The first was an accident. Was on canyon and aimed center mass. He died in one shot. After that I actually aim for the warhawk's head now because I've been able to do it twice more. I've also been able to do it to one Atlas however I dont' rely on it. I can reliably kill heavies using ST and CT shots though. While I'm not the greatest laser user out there I feel I'm pretty good with keeping damage on target when possible.

[Dr Hobo]

Splat builds are fairly good against lights. Or streak builds.

Or grab a light and learn it too. Sometimes it helps to play other classes of mechs that you aren't the most familiar with. This is why I drive heavies and assault yet my comfort zone is the speed of lights and utility of mediums.

[Pjwned]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 11:18 PM, said:

Seems like it would be a competent brawler, honestly. With a STD engine you can basically use an entire side as a shield (little hazy on how well Enforcer's arms shield its torsos - I don't see them too often).

LPL would brawl BETTER, except that would likely mean an XL and no shield arm/torso. Not sure how well the Enforcer XLs.

The ability to lose your completely worthless half of the mech isn't worth giving up major tonnage, because if(/when) you lose the side with all your weapons then you're pretty much useless.

Large lasers, pulse laser or not, aren't brawling weapons either; 3x LPL would just play similarly to 3x LL except a bit less range.

Edited by Pjwned, 20 February 2017 - 06:53 PM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

I've been playing lights for fun so it's gonna be light mech POV and can say that basically any kind of damage is a big issue for 35 tons or less. Even LRMs can be quite crippling to them, so if you're running LRMs on some builds harrass lights with them, even couple missiles can be alot when light doesn't have that much armor anyways. Streaks is of course a no brainer, but they suck against bigger targets that are not point blank.

Pinpoint damage is very lethal to light mechs. Dual gauss is pretty much a hard counter to them. Clan dual gauss dual er ppc 60 damage (with 50 PPFLD) is almost instakill everytime. Pulse lasers are also pretty horrifying, but those two were already stated.

As for different light mechs (someone already pointed this too but lets repeat) weak points are pretty easy to remember. Jenner IS and IIC the weak part is CT because it is so huge. After the rescale (or pgihateslightmechscale) it is VERY easy to hit jenner CT even with lasers. As for Arctic Cheetas the weak part is legs and arms. Shoot off those arms and it has 2 SPLs left, no real threat anymore. They're pretty easy to pick off just by spray and pray too. Ravens I focus mostly side torso, cus they seem to be huge enough to focus out. Legs of course stops any lights (40kph FTL) so you can leg them too. Locusts spray on their legs with lasers. After it loses a leg it GG for that little fella. The side torsos, CT and arms can be pretty tanky with wonky hitreg and hitscan weapons. Spiders spray on legs. Panthers and Firestarters, go with side torso cus it's big enough after rescale to pop their XLs. Adder and Kit Fox I go for CT, cus they're not that fast. Commandos go for legs, they're damn fast and tanky on the upper torso as well.

Hope this helps someone out there to deal with lights (although I kinda don't like giving out tips against them cus the light mechs and queue is suffering as it is excluding Locusts).

[Ruar]

Pjwned, on 20 February 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

The ability to lose your completely worthless half of the mech isn't worth giving up major tonnage, because if(/when) you lose the side with all your weapons then you're pretty much useless.

Large lasers, pulse laser or not, aren't brawling weapons either; 3x LPL would just play similarly to 3x LL except a bit less range.

The problem I've found with adding more weapons is heat. I can't stand having more weapons but not be able to keep using them because I end up shutting down.

Large Lasers give me a good balance between heat and damage, offer sufficient range, and have a short enough burn time that I can keep them on target.

Sure I could switch to an XL engine and toss on some medium lasers or a couple of medium pulse lasers, but I can't use those lasers for a good chunk of the fight because they are too short range. I'm not going to be brawling all the time in a 50 ton medium mech. I'll get in close when the situation and terrain require, but I prefer to stay back some and provide support from the flanks. I constantly shift my position in the fight so sometimes I'm shooting at a target 700m away only to switch to one that's 200m away because I'm engaging across the side of the enemy position.

Add to this the fact I tend to lose a ST before the CT. It doesn't make sense to go XL engine with the current penalty. There are so many games where I lose my entire right side but I'm able to stay in the fight because I run a STD engine. Yes, there are times when I lose my LT and all my weapons, but it's rare and usually happens when the fight is already lost anyway.

I see several people talking negatively about my setup, but I consistently score highest damage in matches. I realize damage isn't the end all-be all but I also get my share of KMDD. I don't sit back and snipe while my team falls apart and think I did well because I have high damage. I pick out weak targets. I harass assaults and pull them out of position. I solo heavies and mediums. I engage lights behind our lines. I'm all over the place making sure I keep my guns in the fight and use my armor to protect others when needed.

I fully understand it's not a playstyle everyone likes or understands, but it works for me and I love it. Just because it's not what you prefer doesn't mean it performs poorly.

[Escef]

Probably Not, on 19 February 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

... but Streaks are the real light-slayers.

Not particularly. They spread damage all over the place. The only thing they have going for them is accuracy. Once fired, Streaks usually hit the target (barring out of range issues, terrain interference, and intervening mechs), and have few, if any, hit detection issues (before HSR Streaks were the most reliable way to deal with lights). Good light players will look into the missile swarm to maximize spread and keep their movement erratic to prevent you from resolving a missile lock.

The best light killer weapons are the various PPCs, big bore Inner Sphere autocannons, Gauss, and pulse lasers.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Escef, on 20 February 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Not particularly. They spread damage all over the place. The only thing they have going for them is accuracy. Once fired, Streaks usually hit the target (barring out of range issues, terrain interference, and intervening mechs), and have few, if any, hit detection issues (before HSR Streaks were the most reliable way to deal with lights). Good light players will look into the missile swarm to maximize spread and keep their movement erratic to prevent you from resolving a missile lock.

The best light killer weapons are the various PPCs, big bore Inner Sphere autocannons, Gauss, and pulse lasers.

I'm sorry but I have to correct this... Alot of light mechs have weapons in their arms. The spread on the damage hurts it as much as lethal damage because once you lose those weapons you're not that useful anymore, thus not a real threat. 2 damage per missile that hits automatically every time is bad, real bad

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 19 February 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

Crits don't really kill mechs that much faster.

If your aim is even remotely good, you'd still have to focus on that hitbox well, w/o spreading to other areas (most common while Lights are moving) and usually weapons that have high duration and low damage per tick tends to be problematic (which an ERLL can attest to).

Pulse lasers are much more efficient at this role as regular or ER lasers tend to not be as efficient unless you have more patience to apply damage well.

and even they are a real trick to keep on one component of a competent Light. Fortunately, incompetent Lights still seem to outnumber the good ones, same as every other weight class.

[Escef]

ugrakarma, on 20 February 2017 - 07:58 PM, said:

I'm sorry but I have to correct this... Alot of light mechs have weapons in their arms. The spread on the damage hurts it as much as lethal damage because once you lose those weapons you're not that useful anymore, thus not a real threat. 2 damage per missile that hits automatically every time is bad, real bad

Correct what? Are you seriously saying you'd rather be dead than lose an arm? Um, ok?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Escef, on 20 February 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

Correct what? Are you seriously saying you'd rather be dead than lose an arm? Um, ok?

Heh, nice twisting of words. Correct you on the point of view that spread damage not being the light killer. Weaponless Jenner IIC-A for example might be dead as well unless game mode is conquest. Cheetah with only 2 SPLs is pretty useless too (though I've had couple of 1 SPL kills lol).

[Escef]

ugrakarma, on 20 February 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Heh, nice twisting of words. Correct you on the point of view that spread damage not being the light killer. Weaponless Jenner IIC-A for example might be dead as well unless game mode is conquest. Cheetah with only 2 SPLs is pretty useless too (though I've had couple of 1 SPL kills lol).

The most common Jenner IIC has 2 missile hard points in the CT. And severely gimp ed but still functioning beats dead any day.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Escef, on 20 February 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

The most common Jenner IIC has 2 missile hard points in the CT. And severely gimp ed but still functioning beats dead any day.

And probably without ammo because the drain is CT->RT->LT->RA->-LA->LL->RL.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Ruar, on 20 February 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

LL, not ERLL.

I don't hang back most of the time, but I found having 1000m range is necessary to contribute while the range is closing on most maps. I get a bonus to laser duration so the burn time isn't all that long. Add to that 30% range bonus, heat reduction, and cooldown and I do really good with my setup.

I actually started off trying PPC builds and found they are just too hot to allow me to stay constantly engaged. I attempted several mechs in both medium and heavy classes and none of them really worked for how I like to play. I like the ENF so much it's pretty much all I use I have 300 matches in it and 80 in a SHD which is the next closest.

My problem with lights isn't so much lasers but rather trying to understand why I sometimes struggle with killing lights when I can put fewer shots into a medium or heavy and get a kill. I think the answer is the latency and the hidden quirks I don't have memorized. Which ultimately means I need to go for legs first in order to get rid of the latency problems and then I can finish them off. I've had lights running away from me and I can get two volleys into the rear torsos without the torso dieing so it's most likely hidden structure combined with latency not showing up on my screen.

If you're using standard IS LLs, their optimal range is only 450m with a 900m max range. Even with a 20% range quirk from the ENF-4R (10% generic + 10% LL specific), this only brings it up to 540m with a 1080m max range (before modules). At 1km range, your large laser would be doing <1 damage per full burn - which is essentially pointless.

The standard IS PPC does 10 pinpoint damage at 594m for the ENF-4R before modules, tapering off to 0 at 1188m. While you really wouldn't be aiming at something 1km away with a standard PPC, it still does more damage at any range compared to the LL.

That being said, very few if any light mechs have any CT struct bonuses. Some have ST struct and/or armour bonuses, but not one of the armour bonuses affect the rear. HSR works very, very well against lights barring the occasional locust, and I think it is possible to safely discount latency as a source of missed damage. I normally play on NA server from Australia, and that means I end up with 270-300 ping on most days, and hitreg almost never messes up, whether by projectile or by laser.

I need to ask though if the LLs on your mech are on the arm, or if they are split between the ST and the arm. Because if they are split, and you have arm lock on, that would explain why you struggle to kill lights. The torso pitch/yaw rates of any mech barring other lights are insufficient to track them properly at most ranges; your lasers WILL always splash across almost every part of the light mech in question, providing he isn't running in a straight line away from you.

If you really feel the need to stick to your LLs, however, I would suggest bringing a couple of medium pulses to help out at close range. The short burn duration really helps with hitting fast-moving enemies.

ENF-4R

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 20 February 2017 - 10:32 PM.

[Rhent]

Regular lasers are horrible for hitting lights. Take SRM's or AC's and you can remove a lights leg in one or two shots and then its game over.

[Escef]

ugrakarma, on 20 February 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

And probably without ammo because the drain is CT-&gt;RT-&gt;LT-&gt;RA-&gt;-LA-&gt;LL-&gt;RL.

And no ammo in the head because...?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Escef, on 21 February 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

And no ammo in the head because...?

Not sure if head is first or last on the rotation. But anyways... This is going on just because of arguings sake so let's stop So yes, if jenner has two or three srm launchers left AND ammo left yes it is useful.

[Lily from animove]

yes, your problem is burntime lasers, they will spread like hell and do a bad job, best against lights is short beamdurations or pinpoint damage, best in bigger dozes at once.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 February 2017 - 12:48 AM.