118 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Should it just be reiterated that Energy Draw actually reduced weapon diversity?

It simply made boating more important, because EVERY weapon system counted towards the ED bar (if you liked Lurms, you can't fire them with lasers outside of TAG w/o depleting/consuming the ED bar).

Edited by Deathlike, 20 February 2017 - 11:04 AM.

[MechaBattler]

It's a shame that a certain streamer is no longer able to post on the forums. He actually managed to get full drops going for a bit and seemed to have a better handle how the changes effected gameplay.

[Metus regem]

Dr Hobo, on 20 February 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

If you could find a way to limit FLPD AND AlphaWarriorOnline it would help MWO stand out from the boring slag fest it is now.

Or found a way to make other builds viable other than mount all the ERLL and MPLAS. Or you could even start doing away with the hard point bloat that happened to a few mechs.

There is, it's just not something that is liked by all people... as more than a few rely too heavily on the perfect accuracy of MWO to actual skill...

And before you ask, yes all weapons in MWO are perfectily accurate, they will always hit the spot that they are aimed at... There are other factors that drag down one's personal precision with them.

Spoiler

Ways to deal with it, are to have a set deviation between shots depending on grouping of hard points, cone of fire (WoWs/WoT), RNGesus shooting (XCom/Fallout VATS) just to name a few different options...


As for the first post in this threat, I don't even understand... some people.... I just... I can't, not with out being very mean....

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Then you just have AC boats and PPFLD snipers dominating everything. The only thing that really effects is laser boats. Why are we so intent on only screwing over certain weapon systems?

It's best summed up with this quote:

Quote

XXXX weapon killed me, it's OP and must be nerfed!

I see that being said by a lot of people in many games, that think they are really good at the game, but really just rely on a crutch to get themselves through it.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

It's a shame that a certain streamer is no longer able to post on the forums. He actually managed to get full drops going for a bit and seemed to have a better handle how the changes effected gameplay.

Are you suggesting that I don't have a better handle how the changes effected gameplay? What exactly makes the streamer's opinion any more "right" than mine?

Just because someone posts videos with commentary doesn't mean they are actually correct.

Its pretty simple mathematically. Lower heat cap means you can't pump out 50 heat alpha strikes (read: laser vomit, especially clan laser vomit, doesn't work). High dissipation means you can do smaller heat alpha strikes more often. PPFLD snipers, at their highest potential, put out 32 heat alphas. Dakka boating also imposes a heat over time, rather than infrequent big heat strikes like laser vomit. Its incredibly simple. Not to mention I did play it and it did confirm this, but its incredibly simple to conceptually evaluate the effects of a lower heat cap and higher dissipation rate.

The ironic thing is, Alphas are still the go to, the difference is you are either doing smaller laser alphas in lights/mediums, of PPFLD alphas on mediums/heavies/assaults, or dakka "alphas" (as in firing all of your weapons at once which is an alpha) on heavies/assaults.

[Bishop Steiner]

W A R K H A N, on 20 February 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

While I would agree that TTK has gotten a bit ridiculous to the point MWO is feeling more like a twitch shooter, making mechs less maneuverability is only going to make TTK shorter as it will be harder to twist off damage or avoid it.

TTK was actually a tad worse during the height of Laservomit. And if a person doesn't think positioning, etc, matters with PPFLD, etc? They are going to have a very bad time of it.

[Dr Hobo]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

Then you just have AC boats and PPFLD snipers dominating everything. The only thing that really effects is laser boats. Why are we so intent on only screwing over certain weapon systems?



He just said right there, its a "boring slag fest". I guess gameplay is boring and uninteresting, he must have the entire game figured out and completely mastered.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 February 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

Wait, MWO doesn't stand out as different right now?

It's big selling point that does make it stand out is that it's got really big mechs(But then again,even the Chrome Hounds you could build some pretty huge things too)

What I mean by boring samey slag fest it is(and not sure why I have to explain it but w/e).

Maps that were fun,and could have used a visual update(and probably geometry fixes) like the old Viridian,the old Frozen City, let you brawl and snipe depending on where you're at. The new maps,it's no mans land in the middle and a boring walk across half the map to get anywhere. Same with the awful awful map that is the Tundra.

Everything feels the same now you know? Maps,mechs etc. Sure you get different looking mechs with some variations on hard points,but we haven't had any new tech because PGI can't into balance anything they have now(I'm sure most people remember the hell that was the Gauss/PPC poptarting that was ever popular)

I however,mostly blame IGP and PGI for the shortcomings of what should have been a damn good mech game(it does look pretty when it wants to run right,but even the Beta was looking better,at least they're making the game look good again,so that's something)

[Gas Guzzler]

Dr Hobo, on 20 February 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

It's big selling point that does make it stand out is that it's got really big mechs(But then again,even the Chrome Hounds you could build some pretty huge things too)

What I mean by boring samey slag fest it is(and not sure why I have to explain it but w/e).

Maps that were fun,and could have used a visual update(and probably geometry fixes) like the old Viridian,the old Frozen City, let you brawl and snipe depending on where you're at. The new maps,it's no mans land in the middle and a boring walk across half the map to get anywhere. Same with the awful awful map that is the Tundra.

Everything feels the same now you know? Maps,mechs etc. Sure you get different looking mechs with some variations on hard points,but we haven't had any new tech because PGI can't into balance anything they have now(I'm sure most people remember the hell that was the Gauss/PPC poptarting that was ever popular)

I however,mostly blame IGP and PGI for the shortcomings of what should have been a damn good mech game(it does look pretty when it wants to run right,but even the Beta was looking better,at least they're making the game look good again,so that's something)

New tech is getting announced in March so there is that.

As far as variety of engagement ranges on maps, you are usually okay if you bring mid range weapons, brawling is tough in the solo queue because of lack of coordination, but as long as you are mobile enough its actually not bad, even on the maps you listed (especially on Viridian.. there is cover everywhere).

[MechaBattler]

GasGuzzler I feel that had more potential with energy draw helping to tweak things. But anything that requires memorizing another value is considered too complicated. People want the game to be balanced from just purely the weapon stats. But they've been tweaking them up and down, left to right, it still hasn't happened. And now we're getting potentially a host of new weapons. Which is why the skill trees are reducing TTK instead of really being about customization.

[Brimbooze]

Bush Hopper, on 20 February 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

The problem is that there is no "soft punishment" for rising heat levels. At 100% you are in trouble but not at 99%. Which means: lolalpha-hide-lolapha-cooldown rinse and repeat. This held true for the laser vomit meta and for the current one

I think this is the big thing.

What's the penalty for consistently staying above 50% on the heat scale? You don't have to worry about ammo exploding, you don't have to worry about gyros or systems failing, hell you can even stay above 80% for most of the game without a penalty.

Having the heat scale actually mean something before you hit 100% other then "Time to alternate weapons instead of alpha" would go a long way towards a lot of the problems (though there'd still be some it wouldn't address).

[Dr Hobo]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

New tech is getting announced in March so there is that.

As far as variety of engagement ranges on maps, you are usually okay if you bring mid range weapons, brawling is tough in the solo queue because of lack of coordination, but as long as you are mobile enough its actually not bad, even on the maps you listed (especially on Viridian.. there is cover everywhere).

They can't balance the mechs and weapons they already have,and they could barely balance the original legacy mechs.

I am curious to see the new tech,but if it's anything like the 'Clan Tech' was it's gonna be boring. Might as well start tossing in MixTech.

I hate the new Viridian. It's nice to not be stuck on roots anymore,but it's just not as fun. Then again,the entire match seems to take place on the two towers opposing each other with each team taking pot shots like the Tundra or Grim Hex. That might be why I hate it now. I dunno who knows really.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

New tech is getting announced in March so there is that.

As far as variety of engagement ranges on maps, you are usually okay if you bring mid range weapons, brawling is tough in the solo queue because of lack of coordination, but as long as you are mobile enough its actually not bad, even on the maps you listed (especially on Viridian.. there is cover everywhere).

Heh, a lot possible new weapons could really throw things sideways, if not implemented correctly... And some of them I see as very tricky to implement correctly... large bore isUAC/s, Heavy Gauss Rifles and RAC/s are top of that list as far as I am concerned...

Heavy PPC's are actually well balanced, 10t, 15dmg/15heat, 4 crits and same range profile as a normal PPC... sounds about right. The Light PPC is also in a good spot too, 3t, 2 crtis 5dmg/5heat and same range profile as a normal PPC.... again, sounds about right.

[Gas Guzzler]

MechaBattler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

GasGuzzler I feel that had more potential with energy draw helping to tweak things. But anything that requires memorizing another value is considered too complicated. People want the game to be balanced from just purely the weapon stats. But they've been tweaking them up and down, left to right, it still hasn't happened. And now we're getting potentially a host of new weapons. Which is why the skill trees are reducing TTK instead of really being about customization.

I was more discussing the effect of high dissipation/low cap, not necessarily Energy Draw, which has a similar effect but also makes ER PPC Gauss combos less effective.

Balance has actually been quite close a few times now, and its really not so bad now, the issue is mechs are getting nerfed that don't deserve it. IS mechs have gotten very clunky, but some still have niche uses. What I want is them to actually look at what IS mechs are good, and what weapon/quirk combinations they have, and roll at least some or all of the quirked weapon stats into the base weapon stats, and then remove/reduce the quirk value. The goal should be to get the most ideal IS mech in terms of hardpoint composition/location and geometry to be balanced with the most ideal Clan mechs, both without any quirks. From there, you quirk mechs that aren't as ideal to give them a leg up to compete with the ideal mechs.

For whatever reason, PGI is more interested in just keeping the quirk system/trying to replace it with the skill tree without addressing the inherent faction imbalance. To solve the issue, I would prefer they take the short, simple road, instead of trying to balance the game with a highly open-ended skill tree or new made-up fire control mechanics. They just need to make that decision and do it, rather than think of other complex ways to do it.

[Dr Hobo]

Metus regem, on 20 February 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Heh, a lot possible new weapons could really throw things sideways, if not implemented correctly... And some of them I see as very tricky to implement correctly... large bore isUAC/s, Heavy Gauss Rifles and RAC/s are top of that list as far as I am concerned...

Heavy PPC's are actually well balanced, 10t, 15dmg/15heat, 4 crits and same range profile as a normal PPC... sounds about right. The Light PPC is also in a good spot too, 3t, 2 crtis 5dmg/5heat and same range profile as a normal PPC.... again, sounds about right.

Wait..you're telling me..I can build my Direstar with not 8 ERPPC but..more?

RACs could be fun. I liked the RAC 5 in LL on the Bushwacker.

[BigBenn]

I've not ever seen or witnessed gauss to be "meta" (or "uber" as the best/easy mode weapons were called 12-15 years ago in MW4/Mercs days). Lasers have ALWAYS been the easiest weapons to use. Just point and shoot. No lead time, no ammo, just some heat to deal with but that is managed well enough with heat sinks and chain firing.

Gauss and PPC's still take a back seat... in fact they sit at the way back of the bus compared to the privileged lasers.

[Metus regem]

Dr Hobo, on 20 February 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

They can't balance the mechs and weapons they already have,and they could barely balance the original legacy mechs.

That's due in large part to trying to balance a standard laser against an extended range laser....

isERML:

DMG: 5
Heat: 5
Tons: 1
Crits: 1
Long Range: 360m

cERML:

DMG: 7
Heat: 5
Tons: 1
Crtis: 1
Long Range: 450m


Those are a lot closer than what we currently have... and it only gets worse, it's hard to balance a cUAC/10 against a normal isAC/10, with the missing IS versions of Clan Tech ™ it'll be easier to balance the two factions.

[Gas Guzzler]

Metus regem, on 20 February 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Heavy Gauss Rifles and RAC/s

Yeah, I was initially excited for HGR, but kind of don't like the idea of RACs. They are either going to obsolete Ultras, or be so hot/cold that they just aren't worth it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

HGRs... I think aren't going to be that good. They require either a STD engine or crit splitting. They are 18 tons. All this reads slow assault mech. Especially if you want to have 2. I foresee the dual HGR build looking like a 100 ton mech with 2 heavy gauss rifles and a single ER PPC, ~STD300, for an alpha of 50 damage at less range than a dual gauss dual er ppc build.

[Metus regem]

Dr Hobo, on 20 February 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

Wait..you're telling me..I can build my Direstar with not 8 ERPPC but..more?

RACs could be fun. I liked the RAC 5 in LL on the Bushwacker.

No, no I am not saying that... the IS Heavy PPC, weighs more, takes 100% more crit space than the cERPPC and doesn't shot as far....

So no, no DireStar with IS HPPC's.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 February 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Yeah, I was initially excited for HGR, but kind of don't like the idea of RACs. They are either going to obsolete Ultras, or be so hot/cold that they just aren't worth it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

HGRs... I think aren't going to be that good. They require either a STD engine or crit splitting. They are 18 tons. All this reads slow assault mech. Especially if you want to have 2. I foresee the dual HGR build looking like a 100 ton mech with 2 heavy gauss rifles and a single ER PPC, ~STD300, for an alpha of 50 damage at less range than a dual gauss dual er ppc build.

My Issue with the HGR, espically the iHGR, is that they will completely out class the isAC/20. at least the HGR has damage drop off, so that it is doing about as much damage as an AC/10 out to guass rifle ranges, but in AC/20 ranges it's doing 25% more damage than an AC/20... on the other hand iHGR is doing 10% more damage than an AC/20 out to nearly GR ranges (570m vs 660m), that's going to make it one hell of a long range sniper, even if your mech is going to be slow thanks to the standard engine.

All in all though, I am taking a wait and see approach with this, it will be interesting to see what PGI is going to do.

[Dr Hobo]

Metus regem, on 20 February 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

No, no I am not saying that... the IS Heavy PPC, weighs more, takes 100% more crit space than the cERPPC and doesn't shot as far....

So no, no DireStar with IS HPPC's.

Dang. You've smashed my dreams.

Oh well. Time to find a fatty with lots of E hard points to dump light ppcs into for giggles.

It would be nice to have lighter PPCs however,because then you can have other mech builds become a thing that rely on those PPCs(Vindicators for example might become popular)