306 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 February 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

I have zero intention of dropping my engines any lower than they currently are because:

A.) I chose them for the run speed and internal sinks
B.) Clan Omniscare still going to be running fast, for the most part, and

And this matters. If you have a team running substantially faster than their opponents, they have a noteworthy advantage in picking where engagements happen and in repositioning.

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C.) Getting left behind sucks.

And this is a huge, huge thing.

Quickplay matches in particular, you need to be fast to be flexible and account for the random nature of the matches. Without sufficient speed, it's very easy to suddenly be left isolated - either in a place where you're doomed, or where you're simply unable to contribute.

Arguably, speed is the single most important factor in quickplay (within reason, of course).

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This change is very good, jyst depends on what PGI chooses to gift each 'Mech with.

Yeah, the baseline stats will matter a lot; but I'm happy to see mechs get different baseline stats out of the gate as this helps differentiate chassis. The mechlab UI will need to show the mech's mobility values better than it does now, though, particularly when shopping for mech chassis.

I'm incredibly happy, though, to see different mechs handle uniquely, regardless of the engine mounted. This is a step away from Gunbag Legomechs, and that's a good thing.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Why not?

No, seriously - why not? Post-this-system, your assault 'Mechs won't be any easier or harder to flank based on engine sizes. They'll all act like Dire Whales whether they have a 400 or a 100 in them, so why not double down on the Assault-ness, strip down to a 250 for weight, and max out shooting power? You're not losing anything when you do, fatbros are already glacially slow in the first place.

What are you actually losing out on?

No, it's not homogenisation. The PTS post clearly stated they're modifying the baseline stats for mechs supposed to be more agile (most specifically, for mechs that relied on agility to be competitive) so different chassis within a weight class will have different agility stats.

Skill tree choices are always going to be somewhat of a baseline (*I assume; it depends on the values PGI chooses whether or not Mobility is a mandatory choice or not), so we may as well ignore that.

Why wouldn't I run an Atlas with a 250? I struggle to comprehend the question, to be honest. I don't run an Atlas with a 250 right now not because of the twist loss (although that does count into the equation) but because being that slow means I'll certainly be left behind, and be unable to react to a changing battlefield quickly enough. I know this, because I spent a lot of time in Atlases back before Clans, when everyone already moved a lot slower.

Did you not notice, after Clans were added, that overall speeds increased IS side as well? This is because the newer clan mechs where all forced to run large engines - even at a time when running those slower engines the IS used to run provided lots of agility as this was pre-agility skill nerf. But the SPEED difference mattered that much.

Speed is a very important factor in battles.

[RoadblockXL]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

What are you actually losing out on?

The cover that would have protected you from the LRMs that just killed you.

[1453 R]

This is Piranha, Winter.

There will be maybe three 'Mechs that get 'different' baseline mobility stats that PGI will point to and say "See?! Here! We did the thing!", while the overwhelming majority of 'Mechs will have absolute bog-baseline mobility dependent stricly on their weight point because this company has a gigantic freaking communal b0ner for formulaic broad-based systems intolerant of manual deviance. See: 'Tier'-based quirks, the Rescale, at least half of all autocannon adjustments, on and on and on...

This isn't "yay everything is better now!" THis is "ALL 100t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 4s. ALL 95t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.9s. ALL 90t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.8s. ALL 85t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.7s. ALL 80t 'Mechs will complete..."

Because that is formulaic, 'fair', and easy. All things Piranha values.

[meteorol]

Going 58kph in a 75t mech surely does sound like a great idea.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

This is Piranha, Winter.

Double-edged sword argument, because even the current system is under Piranha and we have agility ratings all over the place now.

The fact they have been listening in the past PTS and the current one says that we have more control over these than you seem to believe.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 February 2017 - 09:22 AM.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 February 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

Double-edged sword argument, because even the current system is under Piranha and we have agility ratings all over the place now.

And have you ever noticed that whenever they do something "prompted by the community" it tends towards Rescale-style "we have a formula now. Everything will adhere to the formula and thus it will be fair so you fracks stop complaining all the time to improve the balance of the game"?

Is anyone out there really that excited to see every single 'Mech of a given weight point have absolutely 100% identical mobility profiles? Most of them really bad mobility profiles?

[Wintersdark]

With some actual numbers:

That Kodiak trudging along at (values all counting current speed tweak) 43.5kph is going to take a looooooong time to get anywhere. Sure, he can twist and turn as fast as the Kodiak rocking out at 65 (375) or 70 (400) kph, but those later Kodiaks are going to cover a hell of a lot more ground. The later could literally run circles around the former.

Meanwhile, the former does gain tonnage to use in weaponry - a lot, at 21t compared to a 400 rated engine - but it's ability to utilize that extra tonnage is limited. It lacks extra space for heat sinks (in the Kodiak's case, 12 slots worth of DHS; this is an even bigger factor IS side). Sure, it can drop ES, but then it's trading back tonnage for slots, and may as well simply take a larger engine.

But really, when you're looking at upwards of 50% speed differences, that's a huge, huge difference that you're grossly underestimating.

Even in a raw skirmish battle, a faster team has so many more options from the start of the battle, they can control essentially anywhere in 2/3 of the map, vs. 1/3 for the slow team.

In a Conquest battle, the slow team basically loses outright.

Domination? The fast team is set up and gaining points long before the slow team is anywhere near the point.

Escort? The moving nature of escort battles really hinders the slower team. While the VIP moves VERY slowly, constant repositioning is still required.

Assault? It's a silly game mode, but the same factors apply as per skirmish. The faster team chooses where to engage.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

And have you ever noticed that whenever they do something "prompted by the community" it tends towards Rescale-style "we have a formula now.

You act like there isn't a formula now.....the only difference is speed is no longer a factor.

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

Is anyone out there really that excited to see every single 'Mech of a given weight point have absolutely 100% identical mobility profiles? Most of them really bad mobility profiles?

All I can say is you have a habit of assuming things.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 February 2017 - 09:28 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

250 is being quite hyperbolic, but using anything larger than a 350 will be literal idiocy. Some mechs come with those engines locked in, and im going to assume that the Timberwolf at least isnt going to get compensated for being stuck with an idiot engine... the Gargoyle, Linebacker and Ferret might get compensated a bit.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

This is Piranha, Winter.

There will be maybe three 'Mechs that get 'different' baseline mobility stats that PGI will point to and say "See?! Here! We did the thing!", while the overwhelming majority of 'Mechs will have absolute bog-baseline mobility dependent stricly on their weight point because this company has a gigantic freaking communal b0ner for formulaic broad-based systems intolerant of manual deviance. See: 'Tier'-based quirks, the Rescale, at least half of all autocannon adjustments, on and on and on...

This isn't "yay everything is better now!" THis is "ALL 100t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 4s. ALL 95t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.9s. ALL 90t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.8s. ALL 85t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.7s. ALL 80t 'Mechs will complete..."

Because that is formulaic, 'fair', and easy. All things Piranha values.

While I don't expect everything to have well balanced values(because PGI), look through the quirks right now, see how many have agility quirks. Why is it unreasonable to expect that those same mechs will have higher agility stats? The lazy approach here is just to bake those quirks into the baseline stats, and the lazy approach is the most likely one

As things stand, everything is basically equally homogenous, it's just that everyone runs a larger engine and nobody runs anything smaller.

Clearly, then, engine size is overvalued in the current system. A small engine should be a viable choice as well as a large engine.


Again, you were around for the Clan release, right? You saw how much the fast clan mechs being added forced the IS to increase engine size. Do you feel that was about agility, really? The slower speeds of the game prior to the Clan addition still featured adequate mobility. But yet IS mechs dropped more firepower to move faster across the board, very, very quickly. Ground speed is more important than you're accounting for.

[kuma8877]

1453 R, on 21 February 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:

This is Piranha, Winter.

There will be maybe three 'Mechs that get 'different' baseline mobility stats that PGI will point to and say "See?! Here! We did the thing!", while the overwhelming majority of 'Mechs will have absolute bog-baseline mobility dependent stricly on their weight point because this company has a gigantic freaking communal b0ner for formulaic broad-based systems intolerant of manual deviance. See: 'Tier'-based quirks, the Rescale, at least half of all autocannon adjustments, on and on and on...

This isn't "yay everything is better now!" THis is "ALL 100t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 4s. ALL 95t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.9s. ALL 90t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.8s. ALL 85t 'Mechs will complete a 90-degree turn in 3.7s. ALL 80t 'Mechs will complete..."

Because that is formulaic, 'fair', and easy. All things Piranha values.

Haven't they been using quirks to augment the underlying differences already? Why do you think those values and data sets are simply going to be thrown out the window? So each weight class will have a baseline expected movement profile + variant specific quirk/stat movement profile (most of the work here is done already with all the historical balance passes to each variant) + the skill tree variable (player controlled movement profile).... I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that everything is going to turn into weight class specific mush with mechs that have no personality?

[MechaBattler]

More like 250s for mediums. 275s for heavies. And depending on the assault 300 to 350.

We still have to see how much this will effect things. I think at worst it's gonna make it even harder for assaults in pug play. It's why I don't play my Banshees. Too easy to get left behind and picked off. Or just have some light harass me as he lag shields his way through most of my alphas.

[El Bandito]

I already said in threads before this, that I am completely OK with engine decoupling and what it entails. I will still use big XL on mechs that need speed, across all classes. Big XL has more DHS slots too.

[1453 R]

Wintersdark, on 21 February 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

With some actual numbers:

That Kodiak trudging along at (values all counting current speed tweak) 43.5kph is going to take a looooooong time to get anywhere. Sure, he can twist and turn as fast as the Kodiak rocking out at 65 (375) or 70 (400) kph, but those later Kodiaks are going to cover a hell of a lot more ground. The later could literally run circles around the former.

Meanwhile, the former does gain tonnage to use in weaponry - a lot, at 21t compared to a 400 rated engine - but it's ability to utilize that extra tonnage is limited. It lacks extra space for heat sinks (in the Kodiak's case, 12 slots worth of DHS; this is an even bigger factor IS side). Sure, it can drop ES, but then it's trading back tonnage for slots, and may as well simply take a larger engine.

But really, when you're looking at upwards of 50% speed differences, that's a huge, huge difference that you're grossly underestimating.

Even in a raw skirmish battle, a faster team has so many more options from the start of the battle, they can control essentially anywhere in 2/3 of the map, vs. 1/3 for the slow team.

In a Conquest battle, the slow team basically loses outright.

Domination? The fast team is set up and gaining points long before the slow team is anywhere near the point.

Escort? The moving nature of escort battles really hinders the slower team. While the VIP moves VERY slowly, constant repositioning is still required.

Assault? It's a silly game mode, but the same factors apply as per skirmish. The faster team chooses where to engage.

Save that in the new system, once the fight actually does happen the slow team wins it outright, because the slow team has twice the firepower of the fast team at no cost to defensive ability or agility. A 400-rated, 70kph Kodiak catching out a 250-rated, 43.5 Kodiak just gets outright shut down because he can't outmaneuver the slower Kodiak in an actual fight. He doesn't have any better ability to make use of cover than the slower Kodiak (both have exactly equivalent accel/decel, and thus get in and out of cover at the exact same rate), he has no better ability to twist and spread damage around than the Slodiak (exactly equivalent twist and turn rates). The two have the same potential armor, but the Slodiak has a massive edge in firepower that means that for any given engagement of [X] time, he's capable of dealing significantly more damage at no penalty.

The fast guy picks where the fight starts. The slow guy with double the punching power at no drawback whatsoever decides where the fight ends. And if this becomes the norm than there's not really any such thing as 'fast' or 'slow' teams - just teams that may or may not include a few poor schlubs who didn't get the memo, or a couple of guys who miss the days of mobility being a thing that can be attained in MWO and stick to their faster rides in fond, forlorn memory of the time when their expensive collection of large XL engines, or their hardlocked OmniMech engines, actually allowed them to win fights.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 21 February 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

The slower speeds of the game prior to the Clan addition still featured adequate mobility.

They did. But that was before they nerfed the hell out of the agility skills. Something tells me the new skill tree isnt going to give those old huge bonuses back...

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 February 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

250 is being quite hyperbolic, but using anything larger than a 350 will be literal idiocy. Some mechs come with those engines locked in, and im going to assume that the Timberwolf at least isnt going to get compensated for being stuck with an idiot engine... the Gargoyle, Linebacker and Ferret might get compensated a bit.

I don't disagree here, for the most part. Though really, IMHO really extreme engine choices should be... well, extreme choices. High engine ratings offer less speed increase at a massive tonnage cost, but on the same token very small engines also have a significant heat management penalty (<10 built in sinks) along with trivial tonnage gains.

Still, the added space for heat sinks can be important for a high-tonnage laser boat, whereas the extra tons may not be so useful.

---

I think it's very likely that overall ground speeds in practice will decrease following this change, but I don't view that as a bad thing. As it stands, speeds are very high in MWO vs. Battletech - extremely high. But OP here is making a great many assumptions, and as you said, being highly hyperbolic about his predictions.

[Wintersdark]

MechaBattler, on 21 February 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

More like 250s for mediums. 275s for heavies. And depending on the assault 300 to 350.

We still have to see how much this will effect things. I think at worst it's gonna make it even harder for assaults in pug play. It's why I don't play my Banshees. Too easy to get left behind and picked off. Or just have some light harass me as he lag shields his way through most of my alphas.

I'd bet 250-300 med, 250-300 heavies, and 300-350 assaults, depending on build with laser builds on the higher end, ballistic builds on the lower end. For the bulk of mechs anyways.

This is the speed range that we had before Clan's were added, and it worked just fine.

While mechs like the Timberwolf are going to suffer(because the likelyhood of the Timberwolf getting agility buffs out of the gate vs. other 75t mechs is minimal), I highly doubt they are going to be trash tier afterwards.

I don't think speeds will decrease as much as 1453 R proposes, though. The reality is that you're still going to see a lot of up-engined Clan mechs clipping along at very high speeds. Timberwolves running at 87kph while presenting the same Timberwolf firepower aren't going to vanish, and if other mechs move slower, that makes the 87kph a greater advantage than it is now.

[Widowmaker1981]

If they decouple twist/turn thats one thing.. a thing i dont like but could accept, maybe, as long as it doesnt become horrible to play anything that has the temerity to be an assault mech.

But acceleration? You going to tell me that a vehicle with a bigger more powerful engine doesnt accelerate faster than an equal weight vehicle with a small puny engine? And since decel in this game is just slamming the engine into reverse.. same thing.

edit: and gameplay wise, leaving acc/dec in there means there is actual value to taking big engines.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 21 February 2017 - 09:45 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Internal Heatsinks and Speed say otherwise.

But boy howdy do I hope to see a bunch of 250 equipped Atlases and Kodiaks around.... that would make my life as a Medium Skirmisher SO MUCH MORE AWESOME!!!!!