23 replies to this topic

[maxdest]

Burried under the skill changes is probably a more significant change:

Disassociating Mech Mobility Attributes from Engine Ratings

I have long been an advocate of this change, as a potential balancer and opening up slow but overarmed builds. However last time I discussed it a very good point was made. Without the extra boost in agility, larger engines become much less worthy in heavier mechs.

Even with clan XL you are paying a lot of tons for a modest +10kph on a heavy or Assault.

Many heavy and assault builds will therefore gravitate to 250 engine (for heat sinks) . Any homoginisation is a bad idea, and therefore I personally feel that 'leg agility' (Acceleration / Deceleration and Leg turn speed) should maintain some link to engine size.

Edited by maxdest, 21 February 2017 - 12:03 PM.

[FupDup]

The 250 engine is pretty terrible on mechs that are heavier than 35 tons because it makes you slow as balls. Speed, while not usually as important as agility, is still pretty useful (and completely necessary for mechs that have low armor and firepower caps).

Don't forget that larger engines still give you more heatsink slots, which lets you pack in more DHS and therefore have better heat sustainability.

[Morggo]

No linkage, it's about time.

I have been honesty struggling with all these "250 meta" posts today.
I can't really think of too many mechs I'd consider flipping engines in. I like the sinks the current size gives my builds and they certainly won't generate any less heat in future. I find the speed to get into and out of position far to valuable to give up. I'm used to the speed of my builds and frankly, a bit of twist speed or accel isn't that hard to compensate for in the skill trees if I find it becomes a big issue (there's those 'hard choices' ...)

Plus, it finally gives a way to differentiate mechs within weigh classes known for their agility or mobility.. they'll likely get increased base stats (which will also benefit greater from skill nodes). Great balancing tool in addition to just making sense.

So no, overall I see this as a great change and look forward to it.

[maxdest]

It will be interesting how it plays out. I think it certainly pushes towards smaller non heat sink upgrades being less worthy, and we might see people dropping endo, and lowering engine to squeeze in more ordinance ,sinks or even jump jets (with the skill boosts) rather than engine upgrades.

It would be sad to see everyone work in increments of 25 , and of course a potential (futher?) nerf to omnis with oversized engines.

EDIT: Also realised exact same tread running paralell. My bad. Will leave this running for the poll though.

Edited by maxdest, 21 February 2017 - 12:40 PM.

[Kuaron]

Voted option 4.
I do think mobility should be linked engine size, but only from a simulation point of view. It makes no sense not depending on the available power.

I do understand and appreciate a nerf to the importance of big engines though, and welcome a low-engine, slower meta, or at least slower Mechs better concurring with faster ones.
I’d only preferred a different way of nerf, probably something with engine heatsinks.

[Taxxian]

The Engine will still determine Speed and amount of Heat sinks... maybe it can be tied to Accel/Decel/Turn-rate but torso-twist and arms should definitely be independent.

[Pjwned]

I would prefer no link except for acceleration & deceleration, but it would be acceptable if the engine rating still affected leg turning rate, since that makes sense when considering that changing a mech's facing in Tabletop costs movement points, which is obviously affected by the engine rating in Tabletop; don't have to keep it that way just because of Tabletop though.

Engine rating shouldn't affect torso twisting or arm movement at all.

Edited by Pjwned, 22 February 2017 - 04:00 PM.

[Kuaron]

People should consider, that the engine is the fusion reactor supplying the entire Mech, incl. its weapons, with energy. It’s not what you have in your car.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Kuaron, on 22 February 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

People should consider, that the engine is the fusion reactor supplying the entire Mech, incl. its weapons, with energy. It’s not what you have in your car.

Actually, it would be very similar to a car engine. An engine drives the wheels, providing motion for your car, it also acts as a generator to power all the car's electronics. Putting a more powerful or larger engine won't make its electronics run "better" because they run at a fixed voltage, if you try pumping more voltage into a piece of equipment you'd probably fry it very quickly.

I imagine a fusion engine would work in a very similar function, having a mechanical system linking it to the legs, and it generating power to each of the mechs systems, which require a specific voltage to run optimally.

[Kuaron]

Accelerating arms and upper torso and stuff (your car doesn’t have them, don’t even search ) needs power. And how fast you can do it is largely limited by how fast you can apply this power to the part’s movement mechanics.

Since the car only has electronics (in excess to rotating its wheels), which indeed only required a specific voltage in contrast to mechanical systems, the comparability ends here.

[Kelenas]

I have to wonder if anyone who has this silly notion that we'll be putting 250s in our heavies has ever ran a heavy that slow. I don't know about competitive play, but being slow as balls in solo que will have you lagging behind your team and getting singled oUT way more.honestly though, as a primarily medium player I can say this about heavy mechs getting mobility nerfs: about damn time.

[AngrySpartan]

Twist & turn speed is a no brainer for me, they should be decoupled.

All the rest is hard to judge, it's worth separate PTS if you ask me. Depends on how PGI will compensate overengined clan omnis (Executioner, Linebacker, Gargoyle, Ferret and even Timberwolf to an extent) for the lost agility.
Accel/Deccel is a different story though. If speed&heatsink slots alone is not enough, keep bigger engines viable than it's worth keeping Accel/Decel tied to the engine size.

An example: Night Gyr vs. Timberwolf. Arguably best heavies in the game, and decoupling all stats from engine size will clearly make Night Gyr as agile as Timberwolf, thus making it better option. The only advantage TBR will keep that way is a 20kph higher ground speed at the cost of 10t of podspace! With Acccel/Deccel still tied to the engine size, that's still not that obvious which mech is the best.

[Kali Rinpoche]

My question is to all those that voted no in the poll: what happens when you can't min max your meta build b.c you have to spend 40 points to return the mobility that used to be linked to the engine, torso yaw and pitch etc?

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 24 February 2017 - 09:01 PM.

[Chound]

Kali Rinpoche, on 24 February 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

My question is to all those that voted no in the poll: what happens when you can't min max your meta build b.c you have to spend 40 points to return the mobility that used to be linked to the engine, torso yaw and pitch etc?

There seems to be confusion on the issue. A larger engine means stronger motor so things like maximum speed running. People think that a larger engine would also affect torso twist and arm actuator movement speed. I think those systems would be harder to change out because of other restrictions. The question would be the heat balance. larger engine more heat but heatsinks might go a little faster.

[Skribs]

If anything, it will be the 300 engine meta. In most cases, the 300 engine (XL or Standard) gives you the best value in terms of leftover tonnage for the speed. Go bigger Mech and bigger engine to get the same speed, and the extra weight on the bigger engine is more than the tonnage you get on the new Mech. Go smaller Mech and smaller engine and opposite problem: the tonnage you save is less than the tonnage you lose.

Either way, speed and DHS slots will continue to be important, so I don't anticipate anything but my Assaults will change engines, if they even do.

[Philosophical]

in the real world everything requires energy, so it makes perfect sense that larger power sources would allow all parts of a mech to move more quickly if designed to do so (higher powered motors to twist the torso faster for example).

it even works with the car metaphor. even different models of the same car come with different sized generators depending on options. if you have a base model with no frills, it has a small generator which saps less energy from the engine because less is required of it (lower electrical load). if you have heated seats, dvd players, power windows, power seats, stereo amplifier, etc.. your car will require a bigger generator to run all that stuff, that power isn't free. competition car audio guys will understand that putting a big amp and multiple subwoofers in your car will require upgraded (even multiple) generators.

with that said, I would rather have all that stuff decoupled from the engine purely from a game play perspective, allows more freedom of customization.

[Bellum Dominum]

news flash for ya.. that change is no where near 'buried'. In fact there is a post specifically about it. nice try at the random hysteria though

[Andi Nagasia]

Kali Rinpoche, on 24 February 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

My question is to all those that voted no in the poll: what happens when you can't min max your meta build b.c you have to spend 40 points to return the mobility that used to be linked to the engine, torso yaw and pitch etc?

its a Trade off you have to take then, thats the point, you dont Have to but you can if you want to,
this will make the mobility Tree Just as important as the Defense, or Fire Power Trees,

we can assume this is being done to help balance,
and some times to balance things, some powerful things get less powerful,
you cant balance an imbalanced things by keeping everything imbalanced,

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

I imagine a fusion engine would work in a very similar function, having a mechanical system linking it to the legs, and it generating power to each of the mechs systems, which require a specific voltage to run optimally.

That "mechanical" system is the myomer bundles which is powered by electricity. Heat also plays a factor in how the bundles work, as the heat containment increases the bundles functions are reduced, reducing how quickly a mech can move, not across the ground but arms and torso movement, affecting not just the speed of the mech but also targeting....

[cazidin]

I like how this thread has the clickbait title of "Say Hello to 250 Engines" and yet a SUPER MAJORITY of players want Agility disassociated from Engine Rating. It's almost like we want to see how this plays out in the PTS first BEFORE giving our critique and have been asking for this to be implemented for a few years.