142 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Have to ask.

Quote

"No re-spawn objective matches might as well be team death matches, if everyone can die permanently, what is the point going after the objectives? You might as well gun straight for the enemy Mechs and it will get old fast."

How does re-spawn(s) help alleviate the Objective based Team death match issue as you see it?

Allowing more Mechs to come in and die only "delays" the inevitable.

Someone has to Win and someone else has to Lose. Then the Objective is achieved without further incident.

Unless of course the total destruction of one side is not a requirement to achieve said objective then re-spawns are also not required.

[IceSerpent]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Let me tell you how it really works from personal experience.

You spend 15minutes herding cats to get everyone in the ready room at the same time because people are finishing games, logging on at different times, etc.

You get your first drop.
Dave has a brawler and zergs the front line and dies in a blaze of glory 3 minutes in.
John and Paul have moderate config and die 8-15 minutes in.
Rick has been running a back line support mech and is one of the last to die 17 minutes in.

Dave got bored during the 14minutes between him dying and Rick dying and now has wandered off watching TV/Fixing dinner/Browsing the web or worse, jumped in another game.

Either John or Paul are probably doing the same as Dave, but not yet in a game.

You spend another 15 minutes herding cats to get everyone back in the game lobby so you can have another shot.

In a no-respawn game with reasonably long rounds this is the sort of stuff that happens all the freaking time when playing with a group. Its unreasonable to expect people to sit around patiently while you get out at the end of the game. You end up playing much less time than you spend waiting and they whole thing is just frustrating.

What you're describing is not a team, it's a PUG. Why would your teammates wander off or join other games knowing that you're in the middle of a 3 drop raid (for example)? What other games can they join? If you're playing for FedSuns (let's say) and attacking a Combine planet, where can you go in the middle of the attack - to join another ongoing FS vs. DC raid? If you need to spend that much time "herding cats", you don't have much of a team/clan/guild/whatever you want to call it.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Andar89, on 15 December 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well if you cant hold together your team... thats your problem

A Corp or guild with some Teamspeak running and so forth can get organized better and also hope for the teamwork.

If everyone do what he wants they deserve the fail.


Edit:
Damn Casual players >.>

Meh. I've played serious clan stuff too it works out a little better then, but there is still some serious downtime. Downtime isn't fun. I'm just saying that this is a pretty typical night in "gaming with the guys" which will probably be similar to a lot of people's experience. Should we really be making decision based on what the super hardcore can tolerate?

[CeeKay Boques]

Hmm...

With no respawn, you absolutely, completely ruin the chance for large maps, territorial disputes. You cannot "hold a position". You cannot "reinforce". You cannot "Take territory".

You can only have your cool, tactical battle. Which is awesome and everything. But, you can't have a map, with 5 different points, where you need to take all 5 points to win. You won't retake a position. You can't have a "Back and forth" battle. Every battle is its own little death match. Either people on your team are alive, or everyone is dead.

Land objectives have no meaning except for combat staging, who ever gets the mountain first wins.

Don't talk to me about "Realism". All real conflicts have "Respawn". It's called reinforcements from your home country, from your HQ. Just roleplay I'm a different guy.

Can't you imagine rolling up on that HPG and seeing two enemy dropships fall from the sky? Hot Dropping on your win? Yeah that's sweet.

[Evgeny Bear]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 10:57 AM, said:

Meh. I've played serious clan stuff too it works out a little better then, but there is still some serious downtime. Downtime isn't fun. I'm just saying that this is a pretty typical night in "gaming with the guys" which will probably be similar to a lot of people's experience. Should we really be making decision based on what the super hardcore can tolerate?

yes =P

you asked for it ^^

Technoviking, on 15 December 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

Hmm...

With no respawn, you absolutely, completely ruin the chance for large maps, territorial disputes. You cannot "hold a position". You cannot "reinforce". You cannot "Take territory".

You can only have your cool, tactical battle. Which is awesome and everything. But, you can't have a map, with 5 different points, where you need to take all 5 points to win. You won't retake a position. You can't have a "Back and forth" battle. Every battle is its own little death match. Either people on your team are alive, or everyone is dead.

Land objectives have no meaning except for combat staging, who ever gets the mountain first wins.

Don't talk to me about "Realism". All real conflicts have "Respawn". It's called reinforcements from your home country, from your HQ. Just roleplay I'm a different guy.

Can't you imagine rolling up on that HPG and seeing two enemy dropships fall from the sky? Hot Dropping on your win? Yeah that's sweet.

Well you can have back and forth gameplay.

Whith repairbays and resupply bases. how else do I see mechpilots in MW:LL having 12 kills and only 1 death?

only thing you have to do is retreat and repair. which implies tactics again, when lance beta protects your retreat.

Edited by Andar89, 15 December 2011 - 11:04 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

IceSerpent, on 15 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

What you're describing is not a team, it's a PUG. Why would your teammates wander off or join other games knowing that you're in the middle of a 3 drop raid (for example)? What other games can they join? If you're playing for FedSuns (let's say) and attacking a Combine planet, where can you go in the middle of the attack - to join another ongoing FS vs. DC raid? If you need to spend that much time "herding cats", you don't have much of a team/clan/guild/whatever you want to call it.

I never said this was a hardcore group. This is just what happens with a group of friends tries to get together for a few games at night between wives/childred/girlfriends etc. Its certainly not a PUG. That would be a non issue as you just dump them and find a new group. This sort of stuff is exactly how a group of people trying to play together breaks up with pretty typical players.

[CeeKay Boques]

Andar89, on 15 December 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

yes =P

you asked for it ^^




Well you can have back and forth gameplay.

Whith repairbays and resupply bases. how else do I see mechpilots in MW:LL having 12 kills and only 1 death?

MWLL maps are so very, very small.

[Evgeny Bear]

Technoviking, on 15 December 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

MWLL maps are so very, very small.

thats true.


well than lets settle it with different gamemodes.

but dont be mad when the no respawn is something like "league" play for merc corps and house battalions only.

[Unclecid]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Let me tell you how it really works from personal experience.

You spend 15minutes herding cats to get everyone in the ready room at the same time because people are finishing games, logging on at different times, etc.

You get your first drop.
Dave has a brawler and zergs the front line and dies in a blaze of glory 3 minutes in.
John and Paul have moderate config and die 8-15 minutes in.
Rick has been running a back line support mech and is one of the last to die 17 minutes in.

Dave got bored during the 14minutes between him dying and Rick dying and now has wandered off watching TV/Fixing dinner/Browsing the web or worse, jumped in another game.

Either John or Paul are probably doing the same as Dave, but not yet in a game.

You spend another 15 minutes herding cats to get everyone back in the game lobby so you can have another shot.

In a no-respawn game with reasonably long rounds this is the sort of stuff that happens all the freaking time when playing with a group. Its unreasonable to expect people to sit around patiently while you get out at the end of the game. You end up playing much less time than you spend waiting and they whole thing is just frustrating.

that might be how it works/worked in various online multilayer shooters and mech games of the past.

but we have a whole new deal here dont we?
this is going to be a MMORPG set in the battletech/mechwarrior universe.
as it stands right now we have no clue as far as i know about what happens to our pilots when we eject.
for all we know our pilot(s) will have full mechwarrior rpg stats and the match might not be over for us just because we lost our mech we could get captured by or in combat with enemy ground forces...or end up in a medic tent or become a forward observer for arty or whatever.

our POV could change from 1st person cockpit to 1st person on foot and you are still right there seeing the mechs battling around you as you try and get back to friendly lines.

i honestly believe this game is NOT going to be just a rehash of previous mechwarrior multiplayer with a mmorpg tag slapped on it.

matches are not something played on a server from a "lobby"
we get into battles much like you would in lotro/wow/rift/tor etc you gather up and you go into a in game instance.

folks i think need to drop the fps shooter mentality and think mmorpg.

IMO i think a system somewhat like what Pirates of the Burning Sea would be what we want here.

you have fully stated avatars in bases/towns/cities and drop/jumpships, starbases and such.
these can and do get into trouble, combat, quests,missions what have you.

and with an open world you would goto hangar get in mech and rumble out to meet the enemy or load into a dropship for transport.

MWO should never stop or pause for a player just because you lose your mech.

one of the things that makes a MMORPG so compelling over some multiplayer shooter is a persistent world.
if you "die" in you mech you wake up after batter in hospital or mash unit.
if you eject safely you are still in the instance and are still a part of the action.

(this is just my opinion of what i hope MWO should be. i dont want just a plain similator, i want the RPG aspects also.)



.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Andar89, on 15 December 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

yes =P

you asked for it ^^

LoL. Okay. Well, we disagree there. Lets face it, a game can afford to lose the hardcore and survive. Lose the more casual market and the game will wither and die. Hopefully there is something that can appeal to both. It just needs to be something better than "buck up and hold your group together better"

[TheRulesLawyer]

Unclecid, on 15 December 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

that might be how it works/worked in various online multilayer shooters and mech games of the past.

but we have a whole new deal here dont we?
this is going to be a MMORPG set in the battletech/mechwarrior universe.
as it stands right now we have no clue as far as i know about what happens to our pilots when we eject.
for all we know our pilot(s) will have full mechwarrior rpg stats and the match might not be over for us just because we lost our mech we could get captured by or in combat with enemy ground forces...or end up in a medic tent or become a forward observer for arty or whatever.

our POV could change from 1st person cockpit to 1st person on foot and you are still right there seeing the mechs battling around you as you try and get back to friendly lines.

i honestly believe this game is NOT going to be just a rehash of previous mechwarrior multiplayer with a mmorpg tag slapped on it.

matches are not something played on a server from a "lobby"
we get into battles much like you would in lotro/wow/rift/tor etc you gather up and you go into a in game instance.

Interesting idea. I don't think its likely we're getting a free roaming world type game though. More than likely its some variant on a lobby match just due to the development time. FWIW a mmo persisent world mechanic means respawns. At least is has in any mmo I've ever played.

A free roaming world would certainly solve the issue here.

[Evgeny Bear]

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

LoL. Okay. Well, we disagree there. Lets face it, a game can afford to lose the hardcore and survive. Lose the more casual market and the game will wither and die. Hopefully there is something that can appeal to both. It just needs to be something better than "buck up and hold your group together better"

I just talk about my expierence with WoT, which claims itself the title of "Tactical MMO"

If casual gamers and newbies come into the game in random matches, you are always screwed, because you cant know how
your team is going to react. In the End all fails and you are mad, the newbies are mad, the casuals are mad. Everyone is flaming who is
"resposible" for the fail. and you ahve to read insults after insult.
In the end the group did not know what went wrong.
And when you try giving advice you got flamed because you are a "hobby general"
Or if you try advanced tactics like out manouvering or use crossfire and play bait you got flamed as "noob" because you have
to expose yourself instead of hiding behind a rock/house.
Which respawns WoT would be even more of a mess, becuase even the slightest use of tactics would be obsolete.

and even this Tonnage and BV restiction sounds too much like
"hmm I can make a fault but who cares, I have a second life"

There has to be a learning curve.

Look at EVE online. it is based on player PVP, thats what drives the ecconomy.
And you cant just fly arround like there is always a tomorrow.
if you make a fault, than you feel it, because you loose not only currency, you lose everything what is in space.
But in a Corp action, when your ship got blown up you have the option (if you did combat preparations)
to fly back, take one of your other ships, fit them and return to fight, or join the next.
If its wise... well thats players oppinions, if you can afford that OK.
I just like the way of learning by your own faults, but you have to feel them.
And if you take a look on the playerbase, its still played and have its users after so many years.

I dont say its the best cocept but well I could see a merge between those

Edited by Andar89, 15 December 2011 - 11:25 AM.

[Zakski]

MaddMaxx, on 15 December 2011 - 10:42 AM, said:

Have to ask.

How does re-spawn(s) help alleviate the Objective based Team death match issue as you see it?

Allowing more Mechs to come in and die only "delays" the inevitable.

Someone has to Win and someone else has to Lose. Then the Objective is achieved without further incident.

Unless of course the total destruction of one side is not a requirement to achieve said objective then re-spawns are also not required.

This guys explains it well ...

Technoviking, on 15 December 2011 - 11:00 AM, said:

Hmm...

With no respawn, you absolutely, completely ruin the chance for large maps, territorial disputes. You cannot "hold a position". You cannot "reinforce". You cannot "Take territory".

You can only have your cool, tactical battle. Which is awesome and everything. But, you can't have a map, with 5 different points, where you need to take all 5 points to win. You won't retake a position. You can't have a "Back and forth" battle. Every battle is its own little death match. Either people on your team are alive, or everyone is dead.

Land objectives have no meaning except for combat staging, who ever gets the mountain first wins.

Don't talk to me about "Realism". All real conflicts have "Respawn". It's called reinforcements from your home country, from your HQ. Just roleplay I'm a different guy.

Can't you imagine rolling up on that HPG and seeing two enemy dropships fall from the sky? Hot Dropping on your win? Yeah that's sweet.

IceSerpent, on 15 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

What you're describing is not a team, it's a PUG. Why would your teammates wander off or join other games knowing that you're in the middle of a 3 drop raid (for example)? What other games can they join? If you're playing for FedSuns (let's say) and attacking a Combine planet, where can you go in the middle of the attack - to join another ongoing FS vs. DC raid? If you need to spend that much time "herding cats", you don't have much of a team/clan/guild/whatever you want to call it.

Andar89, on 15 December 2011 - 10:23 AM, said:

Well if you cant hold together your team... thats your problem

A Corp or guild with some Teamspeak running and so forth can get organized better and also hope for the teamwork.

If everyone do what he wants they deserve the fail.


Edit:
Damn Casual players >.>

In the real world, there are things like assignments and work and children and time with loved ones. This can often mean the time for gaming is scarce. If you have a bunch of people like that who want to play together, you pick a game where you get the most fun/playtime out of what you have available. If a game makes you you wait around for a long time, its not worth playing. For instance, me and my friends regularly played Company of Heroes Online as a team, in which games can take anywhere from half an hour to an hour to finish. If one person dropped* at the start, most of the time we would drop too, to not split the team. If someone dropped* in the middle, it was a problem and quite honestly expecting someone to wait for ages while you finish, when they have limited time is unfair.

Also by the split the team I don't just mean the person will play a different/new match, they will go off a play a totally different game. And we would probably follow; In a large group, if this happens the game won't just lose one player, It will lose the entire group.

TheRulesLawyer, on 15 December 2011 - 11:02 AM, said:

I never said this was a hardcore group. This is just what happens with a group of friends tries to get together for a few games at night between wives/childred/girlfriends etc. Its certainly not a PUG. This sort of stuff is exactly how a group of people trying to play together breaks up with pretty typical players.

*Edit: by dropped I mean the connection just spazzed which can happen even on the best networks

Edited by Zakski, 15 December 2011 - 11:23 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

Even with no respawn there is no hinderence to drop out of match too.

if I think its honerable... no.
but well thats why I am not everyone.
also we don't know if there will be more than just one gamemode

Like the devs said, they dont want it to be "mmo"... what they mean by that is not clear so far
(I mean if they mean the RPG at the end... respawn is to be questionable, if they do not want RPG, or only at the meta game... maybe you lose the Hardcore die hard BT fans, and thats what the games Lives for i think)

Edited by Andar89, 15 December 2011 - 11:21 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"This guys explains it well ..."

That quote describes a Team game that does not even exist to be played in MWO that I am aware of. Reinforcements? Take and Retake? Back and Forth battles/skirmishes?

I need a Link to this stuff as I missed it totally since signing up here Day 1.

[Zakski]

MaddMaxx, on 15 December 2011 - 11:23 AM, said:

That quote describes a Team game that does not even exist to be played in MWO that I am aware of. Reinforcements? Take and Retake? Back and Forth battles/skirmishes?

I need a Link to this stuff as I missed it totally since signing up here Day 1.

It doesn't need to describe or reference MWO, it talking about how if there were no respawns, how any objective match in any game would most likely play out. Its why while, team deathmatch games in gears of war 2 has no respawns, its king of the hill mode does. (while I would reference a sim here, I have not seen a good one since 2002 ).

Edited by Zakski, 15 December 2011 - 11:31 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

The Battlefield Series, and ArmA 2 "Domination" Mode play this way. A large, large map, with multiple objectives. Those objectives produce resources. In ArmA, its really, really big. In BF, not AS big but same theory.



I tried to find a Youtube, (I'm at work though, shhhh) but just check out the map size here. I don't know if MWO is going in this direction, but you can clearly see, that if I respawn, LITERALLY a mile a way, that its not that big of a deal. When you have to helicopter for 5 minutes to get the objective... you get the effect of no respawn, your downtime, and the fact that I am still playing, even though I died.



Here is a tank rush.

That's what I want. Keep me playing,

Of course... this all may be moot, I'm not sure how big Cry3 Maps can be...

[Zakski]

Damn you Technoviking, totally forgot about that, I really need to get it setup, now I have a rig that can handle it.

Edited by Zakski, 15 December 2011 - 11:44 AM.

[Evgeny Bear]

When I read "rush" I know I dont have to think even further.


I hate rushes!

"Just walz them down"


yeah what a great gameplay

Edited by Andar89, 15 December 2011 - 11:48 AM.

[Zakski]

Andar89, on 15 December 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

When I read "rush" I know I dont have to think even further.


I hate rushes!

It a rush, the same way Bush's "shock and awe" iraq campaign is a rush, i.e. the general state of mobile warfare these days. Also my arma disk is elsewhere