15 replies to this topic

[Mycroft000]

What if instead of what we're looking at now as a way to limit what options you take, we were to get a set of skills at each "level":

Basic:

40 nodes to spread between basic level skills but have that be limited to some combination of skills that could be extrapolated from the current basic level skills and some of the "new" skills they're introducing with the new trees: examples being much of the mobility tree, the jump jet tree, some of the durability tree.

Elite:

Another 40 nodes to spread between firepower, sensors, the higher level operations choices etc.

Master:

11 nodes to choose from enhanced ECM, Seismic, Radar Dep, etc.

Basically a way to force limitations without hiding skills behind "junk" skills. I think it could allow for more restrictions on what gets chosen which would lead to more diverse choices.


Edit updated idea:

Giving this more thought, the trees could be broken out like this:

Basic 80 available, must unlock 40 to unlock Elite, can unlock a maximum of 61:

Cool Run: 10 nodes 1% each
Kinetic Burst: 10 nodes 1% each
Twist X: 10 nodes 1% each
Heat Containment: 10 nodes 1% each
Hard Brake: 10 nodes 1% each
Twist Speed: 10 nodes 1% each
Arm Reflex: 10 nodes 1% each
Anchor Turn: 10 nodes 1% each

Elite 50 available, cost 2 points each must unlock 20 to unlock mastery, can unlock maximum of 31:

Quick Ignition: 5 nodes 6% each
Fast Fire: Weapons separated into 3 sections can unlock no more than 10 nodes: Cool Down 5 nodes at 2% each, Heat Gen 5 nodes at 2% each, and Range 5 nodes at 2% each.
Pinpoint: Survivability separated into 3 sections can unlock no more than 10 nodes: Internal Structure, Armor, Reduced Critical Hits
Speed Tweak: 10 nodes 1% each
Increase Basic efficiencies: 5 nodes each increase basic efficiencies by 20%

Mastery can actually go back to 1 point each?

Advanced Sensors?
Advanced Jump Jets?
Advanced Consumables?
What else?

Edited by mycroft000, 02 March 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[DRlFTER]

A good suggestion, i could get behind that, or just having the elite and master skills be worth 2 or 3 points instead of 1

[Alistair Winter]

I am worried that the wrong skills would end up as elite and master. Let's say that I want to play a mobile sniper, for example. The Shadow Cat with 2xCERPPC or Gauss. This means I will need a lot of different skills, such as jump jets, mobility and survival. If they put Extra Range as an Elite or Master skill, this means I will have to invest heavily in the Weapon tree in order to actually become a mobile sniper.

Ultimately, I think the current skill tree needs more freedom, and demanding everyone to invest a huge amount into basic skills in order to get the good skills they want to build their mech around (e.g. ECM stealth mech, speed tweaked flanker, etc) ultimately means that it'll be a lot harder to create interesting roles. Imagine all the potential configurations a laser boat can have:
- Heat-effective build or hot build
- High cooldown burst damage or low cooldown sustained fire
- Long range or short range
- Short laser duration or long laser duration

From these options alone, you have 2^4 = 16 different types of laser boats. Anything from a laser sniper with short duration, long range, high cool down and lots of heat to a long range fire support with long range, long duration, low cool down and low heat. If you force everyone to take every skill, you reduce the number of options.

Instead of 16 theoretical types of laser boats (of which 3 or 4 end up being viable choices), you end up with potentially only 3 or 4 theoretical options (of which 1 or 2 end up being viable choices), for example.

[Mycroft000]

DRlFTER, on 02 March 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

A good suggestion, i could get behind that, or just having the elite and master skills be worth 2 or 3 points instead of 1

I actually think I like that more than my initial idea.

I don't have the numbers available to actually divide the current iteration of the trees out into this, but lets say there are 100 basic skills, 75 elite skills, and 50 mastery skills. Basic skills could go for 1 point, and you have to unlock a certain percentage to open up the elite tier, elite skills could cost 2 points, and mastery skills could cost 3.

It leaves room for people to invest heavily in the basic skills and get much better general mobility, operations etc, but also allows specialists to purchase the minimum basics and invest more heavily in the skills that are most beneficial to specific roles instead of this random jumble of selections you have to take to get the specialist skills here.

Edited by mycroft000, 02 March 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[Mycroft000]

Moved into the original post.

Edited by mycroft000, 02 March 2017 - 11:15 AM.

[Insufferable Smartypants]

DRlFTER, on 02 March 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

... just having the elite and master skills be worth 2 or 3 points instead of 1

I emailed PGI when the first test came out asking for this. That they'd release another flawed test with the same problem as the first means that not enough people have. If anybody wants a linear system of skill trees with basic, elite and master skill costs, they need to email PGI ASAP or this isn't going to happen.

They tend to over-promise and under-deliver. The time to act is now

[Mycroft000]

Jack J Hunter, on 02 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

I emailed PGI when the first test came out asking for this. That they'd release another flawed test with the same problem as the first means that not enough people have. If anybody wants a linear system of skill trees with basic, elite and master skill costs, they need to email PGI ASAP or this isn't going to happen.

They tend to over-promise and under-deliver. The time to act is now

Let's get this the attention it needs.

[soapyfrog]

Literally anything is better than PGI's current proposal.

[Mycroft000]

I'm definitely not fully on board with the current test system. It has definite benefits, but I feel the drawbacks outweigh those at the moment. I'm hoping to generate a constructive push for something like this in place of the skill tree game of Boggle where we have to take skills we may consider less desirable to get to those that we do want with the current take on updating the skill tree.

[Vidarion]

Sorry...I'm confused...what's a "junk" skill? I agree that some of the arm skills don't make sense in the context of a mech without arm/hand actuators and missile skills don't make sense on a mech with no missile hardpoints, but other than that I'm not sure what you mean.

Maybe PGI should look at that and customize the skill tree a little based on the mech itself. No arm/hand actuators? No problem. Just increase the cost of a downstream node by 1. No missile hardpoints? Don't display the missile skill and increase the cost of a downstream node.

But other than that, what junk skills are there? Or are junk skills the ones that correspond to those modules that no one equips because you're limited to 2 mech modules and everyone takes radar dep and something else (like seismic)? I think it speaks volumes about how overpowered radar dep and seismic are if the other skills in that tree are considered 'junk'.

[WolvesX]

Better than the current skill tree.

[Mycroft000]

Vidarion, on 02 March 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

Sorry...I'm confused...what's a "junk" skill? I agree that some of the arm skills don't make sense in the context of a mech without arm/hand actuators and missile skills don't make sense on a mech with no missile hardpoints, but other than that I'm not sure what you mean.

Maybe PGI should look at that and customize the skill tree a little based on the mech itself. No arm/hand actuators? No problem. Just increase the cost of a downstream node by 1. No missile hardpoints? Don't display the missile skill and increase the cost of a downstream node.

But other than that, what junk skills are there? Or are junk skills the ones that correspond to those modules that no one equips because you're limited to 2 mech modules and everyone takes radar dep and something else (like seismic)? I think it speaks volumes about how overpowered radar dep and seismic are if the other skills in that tree are considered 'junk'.

Hill Climb on virtually anything; Target Retention on a Brawler; Speed Retention; Torso twist skills on Urbanmechs(or other mechs with already amazing twist capabilities). Those are just some examples of "junk" skills.

My Novas do not under any circumstances need Target Retention, but in order to get to Seismic and Radar Dep, I have to go through those. I'd much rather be forced to make more limited choices by implementing restrictions on number of nodes in a given tree allowable as in my idea above than be forced to change how my mech pilots by going through Hill Climb to get to other useful skills.

[Mycroft000]

Alistair Winter, on 02 March 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

I am worried that the wrong skills would end up as elite and master. Let's say that I want to play a mobile sniper, for example. The Shadow Cat with 2xCERPPC or Gauss. This means I will need a lot of different skills, such as jump jets, mobility and survival. If they put Extra Range as an Elite or Master skill, this means I will have to invest heavily in the Weapon tree in order to actually become a mobile sniper.

Ultimately, I think the current skill tree needs more freedom, and demanding everyone to invest a huge amount into basic skills in order to get the good skills they want to build their mech around (e.g. ECM stealth mech, speed tweaked flanker, etc) ultimately means that it'll be a lot harder to create interesting roles. Imagine all the potential configurations a laser boat can have:
- Heat-effective build or hot build
- High cooldown burst damage or low cooldown sustained fire
- Long range or short range
- Short laser duration or long laser duration

From these options alone, you have 2^4 = 16 different types of laser boats. Anything from a laser sniper with short duration, long range, high cool down and lots of heat to a long range fire support with long range, long duration, low cool down and low heat. If you force everyone to take every skill, you reduce the number of options.

Instead of 16 theoretical types of laser boats (of which 3 or 4 end up being viable choices), you end up with potentially only 3 or 4 theoretical options (of which 1 or 2 end up being viable choices), for example.

I missed your post earlier. Have you looked at my post since I updated it with a more fleshed out set of numbers? I think it gives more freedom to skip a number of Basic skills if you want to use more expensive nodes in the Elite or Mastery levels, but also gives the option to make your mech a more generalized combatant while forgoing the specialized skills that make snipers or scouts useful.

[Vizius]

My idea was similar having basic skills and specialized skills. In order to unlock specialized skills you have to spend a certain amount of basic skills. The number of points and the number of levels per skill can vary. This is similar to the Witcher 3 skill system. It gives some level of choice. Here is an example:

http://imgur.com/k1KoiLa

Edited by Vizius, 02 March 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Chound]

DRlFTER, on 02 March 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

A good suggestion, i could get behind that, or just having the elite and master skills be worth 2 or 3 points instead of 1

right now 1 node = 1 skill point. 91 nodes is 91 points. otherwise there would be fewer skill nodes obtained.. Most of us want to be able to select the 91 skills their mech will have. I still think we just have a group of nodes and you buy the ones you want, not get all of the nodes to master a mech. a brwlewr needs strong armor and skeleton but not zoom or speed skills.

[Mycroft000]

I based my numbers off of keeping 91 nodes. Mastering a mech could look like any of these:

42 basic(42 points), 20 elite(40 points), and 3 mastery skills(9 points)=91
40 basic, 21 elite, 3 mastery=91
40 basic, 24 elite, 1 mastery
48 basic, 20 elite, 1 mastery
45, 20, 2
45, 23, 0
59, 16, 0

And I'm sure you can see there could be numerous combinations stretching out from there.

Edited by mycroft000, 02 March 2017 - 11:39 PM.