196 replies to this topic

[SuperFunkTron]

WolvesX, on 05 March 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

Have you looked at the screenshots I posted from the PTS2.1?

They show that the bonus on the AS7-D-DC and the KDK-3 are exactly the same.

E/fixed typos

The video must have been based on an older version then. I just checked it on the newest PTS and saw that you are right. Does the IS quirk chart show what quirks become built into the mech and what stays on as overt quirks?

[Wintersdark]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

The video must have been based on an older version then. I just checked it on the newest PTS and saw that you are right. Does the IS quirk chart show what quirks become built into the mech and what stays on as overt quirks?

No, but you can fire up the pts and compare total mobility values and remaining quirks

Aramuside, on 04 March 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Not sure if you're trying to be disingenuous here but lets be honest some Clan mechs get much better under the new system. Rather baffling as they were considered too powerful to get quirks before. Some IS mediums which survived on agility and speed are also much worse. The Op just picked the wrong examples in some cases. Hoping PGI remedy that as they did with the current patch for most lights.

did you not read my subsequent posts in this thread? Or did you read the first post I made, nothing else, and jump to argue with it?

We've had a whole discussion about this.

[WolvesX]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 March 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

The quirks arent right in several cases (IS 100 tonners are the best example), but there are a few things to note here:

1) Stacking weapon quirks with firewpower tree is powerful. very powerful. Go check the crazy schitt you can do with the Enforcer-5R - 35% LL range along with 25% laser duration. Weapon quirks are something to be careful with here. Weapon quirks need to be kept small on most mechs or we will have crazyness.

I build and tested the ENF-4R (there is no 5R). I even found other players to test it with (see ingame).

1)The ENF-4R lost 10% EHG, 10% LD.
2)The weapon mounts are as low as they where before, making it an inferior chassi to use as a JS.
3)You have to invest skillpoints to take firepower skills to get your performance back.

-> Compare that to the HBK-IIC-A.

You are right, weapon quirks are no fun to mess with, but my argument is still valid.

The effect is a realative buff of the HBK-IIC-A, one of the strongest med chassis in the game.

[WolvesX]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

The video must have been based on an older version then. I just checked it on the newest PTS and saw that you are right. Does the IS quirk chart show what quirks become built into the mech and what stays on as overt quirks?

Yes it does, look on the right charts. The green column on the right is supposted to show the buffs on this front.

http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

[SuperFunkTron]

WolvesX, on 05 March 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Yes it does, look on the right charts. The green column on the right is supposted to show the buffs on this front.

http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

Do I understand this correctly that the green points out a net increase compared to the old system or are they just highlighting the new changes while showing the removed quirks in red without showing us the math?

[WolvesX]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

Do I understand this correctly that the green points out a net increase compared to the old system or are they just highlighting the new changes while showing the removed quirks in red without showing us the math?

Greens means increase. Since the system has changed and didn't exist before they marked everything as a buff.
Red means decrease, good luck with finding a buff for IS chassis. (the 150 on the CP are allready in the game)

[Hobbles v]

They should have left all quirks untouched for the PTS. You cant test the success or failure of a new system like engine decoupling and skill trees if you add more variables to differentiate them from the live client performance.

Especially in the case of engine decoupling, the screwed up big time. most of the mechs with agility quirks removed did not have them incorporated into tier base agility stats like PGI stated they would.

[SuperFunkTron]

I went looking through the IS quirks finally and noticed that the pattern is quite similar to the Clan reductions (I could be wrong because I am just doing a cursory glance to get a feel for whats going on).
It looks more like a general reduction of quirks (looking at non-mobility quirks now) but by no means an elimination. Plenty of the IS mechs will still have some noticeable buffs, which seem to have been brought down because the new system would throw those quirks way out of line if left unedited. Clan mechs also seem to have the same quirk reduction pass on their list as well.

Hobbles v, on 05 March 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

They should have left all quirks untouched for the PTS. You cant test the success or failure of a new system like engine decoupling and skill trees if you add more variables to differentiate them from the live client performance.

In the New PTS explanation:
"Beyond examining the baseline properties of 'Mechs, we are examining how they are impacted by the changes introduced by the Skill Tree system to better inform us on not only the initial tuning of the system upon release, but to point us in a direction toward further fleshing out ‘Mech dynamics under this system moving forward."

They specifically mention the establishment of baseline and future improvement. With the engine decoupling being designed to compliment the new upgrade system, it only makes sense to test the whole package at once. Your point makes sense in the context of adjusting what we have on the live server, but the PTS is really showing us that there is a distinct, systemic difference in game play and mechanics. The change could be likened to the game play difference experienced when a new developer, a lot like how Halo felt very different when Bungie passed it on to 343 studios, though this would be more in the other direction as game play is slowing down.

[WolvesX]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

I went looking through the IS quirks finally and noticed that the pattern is quite similar to the Clan reductions........

So which quirks did they nerf on the HBK-IIC or an the Kodiak or on the Marauder-IIC?

Answer: None, because they had none. Which is the point of this thread.

1)Underperforming chassis had quirks to make them more balanced.
2)Some mechs had no quirks at all because they didn't need them.
3) ...at this point I want to point at page 1.

Edited by WolvesX, 05 March 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

WolvesX, on 05 March 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

So which quirks did they nerf on the HBK-IIC or an the Kodiak or on the Marauder-IIC?

Answer: None, because they had none. Which is the point of this thread.

1)Underperforming chassis had quirks to make them more balanced.
2)Some mechs had no quirks at all because they didn't need them.
3) ...at this point I want to point at page 1.

I understand that very well, but consider their post in the explanation of the PTS:

"Beyond examining the baseline properties of 'Mechs, we are examining how they are impacted by the changes introduced by the Skill Tree system to better inform us on not only the initial tuning of the system upon release, but to point us in a direction toward further fleshing out ‘Mech dynamics under this system moving forward."

Even if they publish the current PTS on the live server as is, they are not done examining and adjusting. They are simply creating a baseline for future comparison, the same way that they create a baseline on a exercise stress test for someone's heart. I am sure that they are VERY AWARE that there are the outlier mechs that over perform, but they have to know how all the new mechanics in the PTS affect those mechs in order to apply appropriate balancing measures in the future. I would really hate to see the new system get delayed for months simply to deal with tweaks for just a handful of mechs with repeated PTS evolutions when the 4v4 format doesn't give a full picture of live server performance.

I understand your concern about the current the relative buff that those mechs you listed gain by not having lost quirks to begin with. However, I also believe that PGI will address them once they have empirical data showing how those mechs translated into the new system. Once there is clear data on how those mechs are behaving in a new setting, more precise and accurate adjustments can be made with less risk of over quirking/nerfing.

[Nightbird]

PGI still hasn't learned that multiple changes in one patch is a bad idea. They're nerfing quirked mechs, mechs with high engine caps, weapon cooldown, heat efficiency of mechs, lights agility... etc. No matter what you have FUN playing with in MWO, it will have received a nerf this patch.

[xe N on]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Even if they publish the current PTS on the live server as is, they are not done examining and adjusting.

You aren't that long with MWO, aren't you?

Simply look at the victors missile tubes and you know how long PGI need for adjustments,

[oldradagast]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Even if they publish the current PTS on the live server as is, they are not done examining and adjusting.

Honestly, them "adjusting" things on a regular basis is one of my concerns with this skill maze unless they do away with respec costs entirely. We all know how much PGI loves to balance via dartboard and make random changes. The skill maze now gives them a new method to wildly swing around the hammer of balance, changing things on a whim... but now it will COST me time, XP, and cbills to respec every time they decide to "change everything because our data says so."

I'm not going to waste time or money continuing to play this game or support it financially if the skill maze turns into a way to squeeze players into a constant cbill and XP bleed via endless respecs in the hopes that I'll buy lots of premium time and waste days constantly regrinding my mechs back to par - only to have all that work undone the next time PGI renders one skill group amazing and another useless on a whim.

I don't like where this is going. This, and the removal of the rule of 3 along with most of the "good mechs everyone wants" already being published hints at a new business model. One of constantly regrinding to stay current and "meta" in the latest iteration of the skill maze. That is NOT content, and is a cruel joke to expect us to keep grinding to basically maintain the same level of capability.

Edited by oldradagast, 05 March 2017 - 11:21 AM.

[Bud Crue]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

I understand your concern about the current the relative buff that those mechs you listed gain by not having lost quirks to begin with. However, I also believe that PGI will address them once they have empirical data showing how those mechs translated into the new system. Once there is clear data on how those mechs are behaving in a new setting, more precise and accurate adjustments can be made with less risk of over quirking/nerfing.

Can you cite a single historical precedent in the history of this game wherein PGI has removed capabilities from a mech and then subsequently returned that capability?

Also, since you cited to PGI's statement of explanation for the PTS, I feel that in the spirit of full disclosure consider also their statement regarding the design principle of the skill tree:

" Facilitate a drastic reduction of inherent 'Mech Quirks."

There is NOTHING in their statements regarding the skills tree or the PTS that suggests or implies that in any instance will quirks once removed EVER be coming back, yet they do make a clear indication that they want those quirks gone.

[WolvesX]

I wish more people would have voted in the poll.

4300 views and only 162 votes cast.

---

Thanks for the comments & discussion.

[SuperFunkTron]

Bud Crue, on 05 March 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

Can you cite a single historical precedent in the history of this game wherein PGI has removed capabilities from a mech and then subsequently returned that capability?

Also, since you cited to PGI's statement of explanation for the PTS, I feel that in the spirit of full disclosure consider also their statement regarding the design principle of the skill tree:

" Facilitate a drastic reduction of inherent 'Mech Quirks."

There is NOTHING in their statements regarding the skills tree or the PTS that suggests or implies that in any instance will quirks once removed EVER be coming back, yet they do make a clear indication that they want those quirks gone.

I don't care about the reinstating of quirks removed. I care that mechs will be adjusted as needed in the context of the new system. Rather than having a fit about it, I'm going to go with trusting them to balance things accordingly. You can be dramatic about all their previous failures, but there has been a continuous improvement since they split with their partner a few years back, and I'm happy with the progress I've seen over the last 6 months.

oldradagast, on 05 March 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:

Honestly, them "adjusting" things on a regular basis is one of my concerns with this skill maze unless they do away with respec costs entirely. We all know how much PGI loves to balance via dartboard and make random changes. The skill maze now gives them a new method to wildly swing around the hammer of balance, changing things on a whim... but now it will COST me time, XP, and cbills to respec every time they decide to "change everything because our data says so."

I'm not going to waste time or money continuing to play this game or support it financially if the skill maze turns into a way to squeeze players into a constant cbill and XP bleed via endless respecs in the hopes that I'll buy lots of premium time and waste days constantly regrinding my mechs back to par - only to have all that work undone the next time PGI renders one skill group amazing and another useless on a whim.

I don't like where this is going. This, and the removal of the rule of 3 along with most of the "good mechs everyone wants" already being published hints at a new business model. One of constantly regrinding to stay current and "meta" in the latest iteration of the skill maze. That is NOT content, and is a cruel joke to expect us to keep grinding to basically maintain the same level of capability.

I was referring to the adjusting of mechs, not the system. I think some tweaks will need to be made over time, just like any other online game, but I think this is going to be the 1 major overhaul with small balancing to further develop the game.

I'm curious to what their new business model is. I doubt that they are looking to be earning any serious money off of the upgrade system, and just because you don't have to by 3 of a chassis to master it doesn't mean that people won't be interested in buying more than a single variant.

And how do you see arrive at the idea of c-bill/xp bleeding? How drastically do you think you will be adjusting nodes? If there are weapons adjustments, wouldn't you most likely just adjust some weapons nodes, if any at all?

xe N on, on 05 March 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

You aren't that long with MWO, aren't you?

I've bee around since well before the clan invasion. I've got a good idea of what they seem to prioritize. As annoying as not fixing the victor's tubes is, does it really seem like a high priority issue compared to the other things they have been working on?

[Kmieciu]

Look how they nerfed the poor Cicada-3C. The 40 ton mech with a single energy and 4 ballistic hardpoints.

It lost 25% total ERPPC heat generation quirk.
It lost 25% ballistic cooldown,
It lost 25% ballistic velocity.
It lost 70% accel/decel quirks and got the same poor agility as the other Cicadas.

Compare that to Viper-C. 40 ton mech with 5 energy and 4 ballistic hardpoints and jump jets.
It lost nothing.
In fact (accroding to quirks sheet) it still has 40% accel/decel quirks. Plus, it's got better base agility than the Cicada.


The Viper-C was already a better mech than the Cicada-3C. But the Cicada was fun and unique.
After these changes, I will never use it again.

Edited by Kmieciu, 05 March 2017 - 11:47 PM.

[WolvesX]

Kmieciu, on 05 March 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Look how they nerfed the poor Cicada-3C. The 40 ton mech with a single energy and 4 ballistic hardpoints.

It lost 25% total ERPPC heat generation quirk.
It lost 25% ballistic cooldown,
It lost 25% ballistic velocity.
It lost 70% accel/decel quirks and got the same poor agility as the other Cicadas.

Compare that to Viper-C. 40 ton mech with 5 energy and 4 ballistic hardpoints and jump jets.
It lost nothing.
In fact (accroding to quirks sheet) it still has 40% accel/decel quirks. Plus, it's got better base agility than the Cicada.


The Viper-C was already a better mech than the Cicada-3C. But the Cicada was fun and unique.
After these changes, I will never use it again.

Perfect example! I wish I could like it 10 times!

[Bud Crue]

SuperFunkTron, on 05 March 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

I don't care about the reinstating of quirks removed. I care that mechs will be adjusted as needed in the context of the new system. Rather than having a fit about it, I'm going to go with trusting them to balance things accordingly. You can be dramatic about all their previous failures, but there has been a continuous improvement since they split with their partner a few years back, and I'm happy with the progress I've seen over the last 6 months.

I was referring to the adjusting of mechs, not the system. I think some tweaks will need to be made over time, just like any other online game, but I think this is going to be the 1 major overhaul with small balancing to further develop the game.

You say you are not concerned about removal of quirks, and that at the same time you trust PGI "to balance things accordingly" and further that this involves the "adjusting of mechs, not the system".

Sorry, but can you clarify this? If they are removing quirks -which is a right upfront, stated in black and white, goal of the skills tree- though you belittle my concern that they will never return those quirks once removed as "having a fit" and yet you appear to agree with the historical precedence that they have never renewed quirks once removed; I'm just curious how you think they will be "adjusting mechs" to "balance things accordingly" if not with quirks, how?

Edited by Bud Crue, 06 March 2017 - 05:04 AM.

[SuperFunkTron]

Bud Crue, on 06 March 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

You say you are not concerned about removal of quirks, and that at the same time you trust PGI "to balance things accordingly" and further that this involves the "adjusting of mechs, not the system".

Sorry, but can you clarify this? If they are removing quirks -which is a right upfront, stated in black and white, goal of the skills tree- though you belittle my concern that they will never return those quirks once removed as "having a fit" and yet you appear to agree with the historical precedence that they have never renewed quirks once removed; I'm just curious how you think they will be "adjusting mechs" to "balance things accordingly" if not with quirks, how?

Was it not clear in any of my last 3 posts that I believe it makes sense that they establish a baseline in the new system rather than trying to force the old system into the new? People who are wanting a replica of the old performance in the new system are like someone trying to force a square peg in a round hole.

It makes the most sense for them to get a idea of how each of the mechs behave in the new system with reduced quirks. Once they have some idea of how mech performance is affected by the wide variety of changes, then they can nerf/buff the outliers and balance it out. A constant barrage of insults to their history won't change the fact that you are demanding that they give you a completely finished system right away. Have some patience and see where they go with this. I have no idea how they will adjust the mechs, I'm not part of their team nor do I have contact with them. Maybe try asking them or waiting for the answer when the time comes.

If you want a historical instance, consider the nerf the Timber Wolf had for a while with its lasers. That was negated after a while and the penalty was removed. I'm not sure if that will qualify for you because there wasn't a bunch of green quirks after, but it was a "un-nerfing".

You satisfied with the answer, boss?