196 replies to this topic

[WolvesX]

Look here for the changes:
http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf
http://static.mwomer...an%20Quirks.pdf

It might be complicated to understand the consequences, so I picked some examples and try to make it more simple to understand.

PGIs idea with this was: Compensation for the cut of skills and addition of the skill tree.

BUT there is a gigant problem and it seems they didn't get it.

---

Let me explain it with a few examples:

Two 100 Tonners.

ATLAS-D-DC vs KDK-3

3 Trees skilled. (71 SP KDK-3, 73 ATLAS-D-DC (ECM 2 more))



Now lets compare:

The Atlas lost: laser duration, missile velocity, missile cooldown, turn rate, torso turn rate, torso turn angle, ecm effectivness.

The KDK-3 lost: Nothing, because it hasn't had any quirks in the first place.

Both have gained the same, because the skill tree is the same for both.

EFFECT:You have nerfed the D-DC in comparison!

This is JUST ONE example, some are more extreme than others.



The movement pattern is basicly the same for both on PTS2.1 So the Atlas isn't better than the KDK-3 on that front.

---

And now the AWS-8T...

It loses:
Energy CD -20% (!!!)
Energy Heat Gen -10%
Laser Duration -5%
TTR -35%

And it gains THE SAME as any other 80 tonner that lost NOTHING. Don't know if PGI is trolling to be honest.

EXAMPLE ORION:

NEW:

OLD:


As you can see the Orion (of all things) got nerfed...

excluding the mobility ones: -5% BCD, -20% BV

---

Visualized Example:

HBK-IIC before the skilltree in comparison (with quirks and mastery).

Orion before the skilltree in comparison (with quirks and mastery).


AFTER THE SKILLTREE

HBK-IIC after the skilltree in comparison (with quirks).

Orion after the skilltree in comparison (with quirks).

RESULT: As you can see, the Orion would now be worse in comparison.

The reason:
1) Both got the skills removed.
2) Both got the skill tree added.
3) Only the Orion (and many other IS and Clan mechs) got its quirks nerfed / removed.

Now:
Can we agree on that taking away quirks to "balance" an universal change is a bad thing?

Those mech needed the quirks before.

IF you take away these quirks, you buff those mech who where without quirks in the first place.

---

Basic explanation (simplified):

MECH1 = 10 ; MECH2= 15.
MECH1 (with quirks) = 10+5; MECH2= 15.

But if you add the skill tree & nerf MECH1s (for example the Vindicator) quirks:

MECH1= 10 +5 -4 +3 = 14
MECH2= 15 + 3 = 18

See the flaw?
Now MECH2 (f.e. Timber Wolf) is even stronger than before in comparison with MECH1 (f.e. Summoner)

---

An other example:

- The HBK-IIC has no quirks and gets the skill tree.
- The Awesome has quirks and also gets the skill tree.

So if you take away the quirks of the Awesomes and don't take away something from the HBK-IIC, you have buffed the HBK-IIC.

---

This makes NO sence at all: WHY WOULD THE AWESOME WITH THE SKILL TREE BUT WITHOUT ITS QUIRKS MORE EQUAL TO AN HBK-IIC THAT ALSO gets the skill tree?
---

Its basic math.

PLEASE if I get the math wrong here explain it to me!

---

It doesn't make any sence at all! Those chassis where not balanced in the first place.
THAT IS WHY you added quirks to them.
IF YOU NOW take away something from only ONE chassis it and add the same to both...

THE

BALANCE

IS

NOT

THE

SAME!

---

But this is not just an Clan / IS problem.

If you take quirks away from the Summoner (for example) the result would be the same:

Relative to the Timber Wolf the Summoner would be worse, because you added the skill tree to both, but took away from only one of the two.

---

Possible Solutions

1) Don't take away quirks from underperformers

OR

2) Give underperformers more skill points for free depending on the chassis.

OR

3) Fix "pinpoint" and call it a day...

---

English is not my first language, sorry for orthography errors!

Edited by WolvesX, 05 March 2017 - 02:00 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

All the Awesomes still have quirks in the PTS. As do most mechs that previously had quirks, if not all of them.

Now, some of the earlier quirks have been reduced. That is bad. Your logic is sound. There is no need to reduce quirks on underperforming mechs to compensate for a universal buff.

[WolvesX]

Alistair Winter, on 02 March 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

There is no need to reduce quirks on underperforming mechs to compensate for a universal buff.

God I wish my english would be as good as yours.

Mechs have still quirks, but reduced versions of them for no reason.

EDIT2: You can look teh nerfs up in the PDFs I linked.

Edited by WolvesX, 04 March 2017 - 12:16 PM.

[cazidin]

'Member when the community hated quirks and wanted them gone?

Pepperidge Farm 'Members.

[kapusta11]

Removal of quirks is nothing else but IS nerf. Yeah I get it, quirks + skill trees = tons of bonuses and you have to compensate BUT not when clans get buffed by new skill trees.

[WolvesX]

cazidin, on 02 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

'Member when the community hated quirks and wanted them gone?

Pepperidge Farm 'Members.

I don't understand that, could you please explain it more simple.

What does "Pepperidge Farm 'Members." mean?

Does " 'member " mean remember?

Edited by WolvesX, 02 March 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[Wintersdark]

WolvesX, on 02 March 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Can we agree on that taking away quirks is a bad thing?

Those mech needed the quirks before.

IF you take away these quirks, you buff those mech who where without quirks in the first place.


Look here: http://static.mwomer...TS_ISQuirks.pdf

- The HBK-IIC has no quirks and gets the skill tree.
- The Awesome has quirks and also gets the skill tree.

So if you take away the quirks of the Awesomes and don't take away something from the HBK-IIC, you have buffed the HBK-IIC.

---

This makes NO sence at all: WHY WOULD THE AWESOME WITH THE SKILL TREE BUT WITHOUT ITS QUIRKS MORE EQUAL TO AN HBK-IIC THAT ALSO gets the skill tree?
---

Its basic math.

PLEASE if I get something wrong here explain it to me!

---

HBK-IIC = X

AWE-8Q = X+2

The skill tree adds +4 to both lets say. SO:

HBK-IIC = X+4

BUT if you cut something from the AWE-8Q in the process (like -1). Its

AWE-8Q = X+2-1+4

It doesn't make any sence at all. Those chassis where not balanced in the first place.
THAT IS WHY you added quirks to them.
IF YOU NOW take away something from it and add the same to both...

THE

BALANCE

IS

NOT

THE

SAME!

Did you actually look at mechs before saying stupid things?

On the PTS, my awesomes still have their weapon quirks.

Mobility quirks are generally gone, but if you look at the mobility values, they are still there. Just part of the mech instead of quirks.

So, maybe look on the PTS before ranting?

kapusta11, on 02 March 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

Removal of quirks is nothing else but IS nerf. Yeah I get it, quirks + skill trees = tons of bonuses and you have to compensate BUT not when clans get buffed by new skill trees.

Except IS mechs still have quirks?

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Except IS mechs still have quirks?

Ok, one side had X amount of buffs, the other one had nothing and was still stronger. Now one side has Y+Z=X amount of buffs but the other side, the one that was stronger previously, gets Z amount of buffs. Who got shafted?

[WolvesX]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Except IS mechs still have quirks?

Added screenshots.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 02 March 2017 - 10:38 AM, said:

Ok, one side had X amount of buffs, the other one had nothing and was still stronger. Now one side has Y+Z=X amount of buffs but the other side, the one that was stronger previously, gets Z amount of buffs. Who got shafted?

Both sides "gained" the same amount of buffs. The gap between both is the same. If the totals in the PTS are higher than live, then IS gained less.

Consider for a silly numerical explaination:

Live: IS strength 10, Clan strength 15. IS = 66.7% of clan.

Give both sides +3 buff equally. IS = 13, Clan = 18. IS = 72.2% of clan.

THUS, the gap is now closer, by your logic.

[WolvesX]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Wrong.

They are nerfing IS quirks, did you check the screenshots I added?

IS = 10 ; CLAN = 15.
IS`(with quirks) = 10+5; CLAN = 15.

But if you add the skill tree & nerf IS quirks:

IS = 10 +5 -4 +3 = 14
CLAN = 15 + 3 = 18

See the flaw?

Edited by WolvesX, 02 March 2017 - 11:00 AM.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Both sides "gained" the same amount of buffs. The gap between both is the same. If the totals in the PTS are higher than live, then IS gained less.

Consider for a silly numerical explaination:

Live: IS strength 10, Clan strength 15. IS = 66.7% of clan.

Give both sides +3 buff equally. IS = 13, Clan = 18. IS = 72.2% of clan.

THUS, the gap is now closer, by your logic.

Except PGI decided to also reduce IS "strength" to compensate for the buff.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 02 March 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

Except PGI decided to also reduce IS "strength" to compensate for the buff.

This is a problem, then - I haven't checked everything, but will make a point to do that. It'll need to be adjusted for somewhere if this is the case across the board, no doubt.

[Acehilator]

Wintersdark, on 02 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

This is a problem, then - I haven't checked everything, but will make a point to do that. It'll need to be adjusted for somewhere if this is the case across the board, no doubt.

http://static.mwomer...re%20Quirks.pdf

PGI went full PGI again, business as usual. This horse dung is getting soooooo annoying. At this point I have to assume it's malice, not incompetence. Guess it is time to increase the weight difference in FW by another 10 or 15 tons in a few weeks.

/edit: can't form sentences that make sense

Edited by Acehilator, 02 March 2017 - 11:23 AM.

[WolvesX]

Wow. That is amazing.

50% think that nerfing chassis after an universal change that affect all chassis the same way is ok.

Sadly not many stated why they picked NO.

Edited by WolvesX, 02 March 2017 - 11:38 AM.

[cazidin]

WolvesX, on 02 March 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

I don't understand that, could you please explain it more simple.

What does "Pepperidge Farm 'Members." mean?

Does " 'member " mean remember?

[Kuaron]

The problem persists since PTS1, there it were only the weapons, not accel/decel:
https://mwomercs.com...uirk-reductions

In case of agility, the change is not universal. A Linebacker is still much more agile than a Mad Dog. But the Mad Dog (which previously had quirks) is not much more agile than an EbJag. That is the part I don’t understand or agree with.

[Acehilator]

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

The problem persists since PTS1, there it were only the weapons, not accel/decel:
https://mwomercs.com...uirk-reductions

In case of agility, the change is not universal. A Linebacker is still much more agile than a Mad Dog. But the Mad Dog (which previously had quirks) is not much more agile than an EbJag. That is the part I don’t understand or agree with.

It is because of PGI's arbitrary mobility numbers. Default engine size in relation to tonnage seems to be one of their starting points to determine that number. In the case you mentioned, seems perfectly fine.

/edit:
On a sidenote, the poll results are depressing. Only Clan fanbois checking out the PTS? Geez

Edited by Acehilator, 02 March 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[WolvesX]

Acehilator, on 02 March 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

It is because of PGI's arbitrary mobility numbers. Default engine size in relation to tonnage seems to be one of their starting points to determine that number. In the case you mentioned, seems perfectly fine.

/edit:
On a sidenote, the poll results are depressing. Only Clan fanbois checking out the PTS? Geez

But even if you are a clanner, they also take away quirks from underperforming clan mechs...

So I guess they don't get the point OR are for some reason I can't explain why they are fine with it.

Noone so far explained why he is fine with it so far.

Edited by WolvesX, 07 March 2017 - 01:03 AM.

[Kuaron]

Acehilator, on 02 March 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

On a sidenote, the poll results are depressing. Only Clan fanbois checking out the PTS? Geez

You take that back!

But every post sounds old if you mention Kodiaks and Vindicators. You can compare Catapult with the above mentioned Mechs though, which also had nice accel quirks. Now the Butterbee got some advantage over the other variants. Did it underperform so much, or just sell badly? Please tell us, PGI!