43 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Ruar, on 02 March 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Better, but still not what it should be. They just need to go linear and adjust costs so the more popular skills have a higher skill point requirement when compared to the less used skills. Anytime we are forced to take a skill we don't want/need in order to get to a skill we do want/need demonstrates poor design and thought.

Just asking, but what is the functional difference between taking 4 nodes you dont want to get that heat gen node and the heat gen node costing 5 points instead of 1? Just the feels?

I personally think that if some nodes are being taken above others too much, the values are wonky. People probably dont care about cooldown nodes because 0.65% per point is just absurdly pointless, for example.

[C E Dwyer]

I like it a lot but there are still things that need changing

[Kuaron]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 March 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

the weapon tree went from encouraging boating,
to now penalizing all kinds of weapon play, you dont benefit unless you max out most of the Tree,
its not very fair to have an all energy WLF or CRB looking for Heat Gen and Duration Quirks(18Nodes),
to have to spend 30Nodes to get them, and also with that get 8% Velocity and 3Missile Crit Chance,

The way you have to look at it:
Weapon skills are not that important, you aren’t losing out on anything if you take only half of the possible nodes and invest the remaining skill points in non-weapon branches. They are more important anyway. So with a Crab, you just leave the few nodes hidden behind missiles where they are. But if you are skilling for a mixed weapon setup and taking weapon skills for all of your weapons, which is a disadvantage in itself, you get at least rewarded with more general weapon nodes.

I’m not saying this is the best way to do it, there are solutions I like much better, but with the current nodes them being apparently unorganized has a reason. You have to redo the tree more if you try to at least keep its positive features.

[Gentleman Reaper]

It's significantly better, but it still needs work, some ideas being:

Removing or putting aside weapon-specific skills (spread, jam, charge time), I'm fine with needing to buy skills to max out the ones you want, but not being forced to buy nodes that does nothing for your specific build. I would honestly prefer if they removed the weapon-specific altogether because I feel that some of there weapon will depend on these skills to perform well (especially LB-Xs).

Combining laser duration with velocity and renaming it weapon accuracy. This change seems like a no-brainer, and would further reduce the number of skills that don't affect all builds.

[Kuaron]

First of all, we need to stop suggesting linear systems and imagining they would work by themselves and not encourage boating.

Andi suggests an almost linear one, even if it looks in the pic similar to the web from PTS2.
So does PJohann and so do I, but even if neither of the suggestions looks as pretty, they contain additional changes supposed to make a linear system actually work.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Kuaron,
i have as well with Topics such as,
(Skill Tree Should Take Inconsideration Number Of Like Weapons Equipped!)
and (Way To Encurage Diversity With Trees!)

the problem isnt the Skill Trees being linear systems,
if the problem is boating then we need ways to reduce boating,
(Ghost Heat)(Power Draw)(ect.)

[JC Daxion]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 March 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

currently in the Weapon Skill Tree,
many feel they have to get things they dont need to get what they want,

Current Weapon Skill Tree,
as many have noted the Weapon Tree is so unorganized its hard to even find all of a single Skill,
let alone get all of the ones you want with out getting many you dont need,


so using PS i took it apart and reorganized the Weapon Tree,
with the Intent on making it easier to follow but still keeping it mostly the same,

this is the reorganized Tree, everything is more open, and easier to work with,
with this i feel many of the Weapon Tree Problems would go away,

i made it so you cant Blindly spec into - Heat Gen,
this is to put abit more cost into them, having to get others to get them,
however taking full Range or cooldown Trees will remedy this as it allows such,

i Also kept the Ammo Quirks to the Bottom,
as your probably ganna max a Tree if you are ganna use them,
so you are already likely to have a Branch down there to access them,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

It needs to be somewhere in the middle of the two... I also made a post about making the very, very early nodes work for all mechs.. meaning about 8 nodes.. (4 each side) But then have the weapon specific nodes, and then More universal behind said nodes.

My biggest issue, are the first nodes on each side only work on certain mechs.. the first nodes you can pick should be all mechs.. But hide others behind weapon specific for maximum boost, you will need to burn nodes.


The problem with your second pic, is it means boats are better period.. You need those nodes hidden to keep boats, and non boats spending similar numbers of points into weapons to get a similar performance.

also putting all cooldown/heat in a single line is not that great of an idea.. you are getting the most bang, for least points.

Basically more generic close, as you get farther out, weapon specific, and then more general nodes again. those heat and cool down, while half should be close, the others need to be burried behind all weapon types

Edited by JC Daxion, 03 March 2017 - 01:57 PM.

[Kuaron]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 March 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

the problem isnt the Skill Trees being linear systems,
if the problem is boating then we need ways to reduce boating,
(Ghost Heat)(Power Draw)(ect.)

We need the tree not to encourage it in the first place.
I know your other threads but here you didn’t incorporate any of their ideas. And I see no way to approve on a suggestion basically drawing a linear tree without measures against the problem a linearisation brings.

[Cybrid 0x0t2md2w]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 March 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

currently in the Weapon Skill Tree,
many feel they have to get things they dont need to get what they want,

Current Weapon Skill Tree,
as many have noted the Weapon Tree is so unorganized its hard to even find all of a single Skill,
let alone get all of the ones you want with out getting many you dont need,


so using PS i took it apart and reorganized the Weapon Tree,
with the Intent on making it easier to follow but still keeping it mostly the same,

this is the reorganized Tree, everything is more open, and easier to work with,
with this i feel many of the Weapon Tree Problems would go away,

i made it so you cant Blindly spec into - Heat Gen,
this is to put abit more cost into them, having to get others to get them,
however taking full Range or cooldown Trees will remedy this as it allows such,

i Also kept the Ammo Quirks to the Bottom,
as your probably ganna max a Tree if you are ganna use them,
so you are already likely to have a Branch down there to access them,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

I prefer your tree adjustment if pgi made fine tuning and didn't adjust things to a new tree form. but personally I think a lot of numbers are still too low for what each node gives, especially heat gen if heatgen quirks get removed. how ever daxion makes quite a few good points where tom place things a bit better.

Edited by Cybrid 0x0t2md2w, 03 March 2017 - 02:47 PM.

[PJohann]

Imo the skill tree cant discourage boating by adding some kind of restrictions without hurting mixed loadouts even more. So we need to promote mixed builds to have no downsides compared to boats. With tree that I suggested it's pretty much posible since we can have benefits for all types of weapons at the same time for same cost. There is still room for variety since skillpoints are limited and some players may prefer more heat efficiency over range or spread or whatever else.

[Chound]

Ruar, on 02 March 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Better, but still not what it should be. They just need to go linear and adjust costs so the more popular skills have a higher skill point requirement when compared to the less used skills. Anytime we are forced to take a skill we don't want/need in order to get to a skill we do want/need demonstrates poor design and thought.

It shouldn't matter if a skill isn't currently as desireable as another. I don't know but what I would like to see is they take the current format but put all the skills into a table like the pilot skill system with catagories unchanged so you would have sensor operations, mobility, survival, firepower and toss jump jets into a misc tree wioth UAV, Narc and Coolshots. The big probalem with the current system is the rule of 4 where you need 4 variants of a chasis to master the mech. In my mind what they needed to do is remove the rule of 4 and alow a player to select some 3 or 4 mech skills 4 weapon skills and maybe 20 ofthe pilot skills whch are the weapons range, cooldown, velocitiy, A beginnning player wold benefit from having radar derp, and seismic sensors. My standard sensor suite would be advanced z00m,radar derp, and seismic sensor they could add range adjustments to the advanced zoom and seismic sensor.They can offer SP as early adopter awards one sp=1 node.

[Malrock]

Two things your tree punishes people who have to get deeper in to the skills on the ballistics side. Put the magazine buffs as linking skills so that people don't have to take ones that don't help their build, because all can use magazine skills but not all need guass, uac, or lbx skills.

I still like this fellows example best.

http://imgur.com/a/ZTjKH

[Andi Nagasia]

Malrock, on 03 March 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

Two things your tree punishes people who have to get deeper in to the skills on the ballistics side. Put the magazine buffs as linking skills so that people don't have to take ones that don't help their build, because all can use magazine skills but not all need guass, uac, or lbx skills.

I still like this fellows example best.

http://imgur.com/a/ZTjKH

i put all 4 Ammo Quirks(Ballistic & Missile) at the bottom,
as your most likely to get them after maxing a ballistic or missile Tree,
-
if your Running Missiles your likely to Max weapon Range, hence why Missile Rack is attacked to Range,
if your Running Ballistics your Likely to Max Cooldown, hence why Magazine Capacity is attacked to Cooldown,

the thing is you dont have to get weapon Spacific Quirks to get all of the Generic ones,
the old Tree if you wanted to run +20%Velocity and -8%Heat(PPC build) you had to get 6 LDuration Quirks as well,


personally merging all the Heat / Range / Velocity / Cooldown into one tree was a good idea,
but many dont like that if you have to buy Quirks you may not have a need for if you want something more,
-
PPC Builds- have to spend 26 Nodes for 13(5Velocity + 8Heat) and you get stuck with Duration ect.
Full Energy Builds- have to spend 30 Nodes for 18(10Duration + 8Heat) and you get velocity & missile Crit ect.

my organized tree still forces you to get other Nodes,
Gauss + Ammo = you are forced to get 7 Cooldown nodes,
Missile + Ammo = you are forced to get 9 Range nodes(or 2Heat 4Range),
Duration = you are forced to get 2 Range nodes,
-
but everything your forced to get is a Generic Quirk you may have gotten anyway,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 March 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[Malrock]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 March 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

i put all 4 Ammo Quirks(Ballistic & Missile) at the bottom,
as your most likely to get them after maxing a ballistic or missile Tree,
-
if your Running Missiles your likely to Max weapon Range, hence why Missile Rack is attacked to Range,
if your Running Ballistics your Likely to Max Cooldown, hence why Magazine Capacity is attacked to Cooldown,

the thing is you dont have to get weapon Spacific Quirks to get all of the Generic ones,
the old Tree if you wanted to run +20%Velocity and -8%Heat(PPC build) you had to get 6 LDuration Quirks as well,


personally merging all the Heat / Range / Velocity / Cooldown into one tree was a good idea,
but many dont like that if you have to buy Quirks you may not have a need for if you want something more,
-
PPC Builds- have to spend 26 Nodes for 13(5Velocity + 8Heat) and you get stuck with Duration ect.
Full Energy Builds- have to spend 30 Nodes for 18(10Duration + 8Heat) and you get velocity & missile Crit ect.

my organized tree still forces you to get other Nodes,
Gauss + Ammo = you are forced to get 7 Cooldown nodes,
Missile + Ammo = you are forced to get 9 Range nodes(or 2Heat 4Range),
Duration = you are forced to get 2 Range nodes,
-
but everything your forced to get is a Generic Quirk you may have gotten anyway,

I think it would be better if the ammo wasn't at the bottom, but rather on ballistic side was moved to be where the 1st uac jam node is and the 1st lbx spread node is. Then just shift the uac jam and lbx spread out one more level. This allows people headed to guass buffs to choose to get cooldown or ammo increases and helps people who want either lbx or uac to also get ammo increases if they want to say also dip their toe into a secondary weapon buff like lasers or missiles rather than running to the bottom of the tree. you could also include a link down from velocity so people who didn't want more ammo could choose to skip the ammo things as well.

I am not saying your tree isn't an improvement over PGI's because it is clearly better, I just think that it could be improved. I also tend to prefer the one I linked over yours. I imagine in your current tree people are not likely ever headed to ammo nodes.

[Chound]

soapyfrog, on 03 March 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

If you make ALL the nodes general, then mixed builds are not at a skill buff disadvantage over boats.

no there are quirks for certain catagories duration only applies to lasers and charge time is usually miniscule compared to a gauss riffle. Do missles jam. That's never happened to me.

[axe64]

i do not like having to take missle and laser skills just to get all the cooldown skills for my lb 2 x. wonderful having all lb 2 yet still having to take missles and laser skills

[soapyfrog]

Chound, on 03 March 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

no there are quirks for certain catagories duration only applies to lasers and charge time is usually miniscule compared to a gauss riffle. Do missles jam. That's never happened to me.

Why do you assume that a node can only buff one thing? Clearly you could have a node that buffs laser duration, gauss charge time, and uac jam chance all at once (as well as missile spread and whatever else).

Just make sure that every node buff all weapon types in one way or another, and the skill tree will [i]at least not punish[/] mixed builds.

[Andi Nagasia]

soapyfrog, on 03 March 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Why do you assume that a node can only buff one thing? Clearly you could have a node that buffs laser duration, gauss charge time, and uac jam chance all at once (as well as missile spread and whatever else).

Just make sure that every node buff all weapon types in one way or another, and the skill tree will [i]at least not punish[/] mixed builds.

Actually this could work, but their values would have to be less and such spread over more Nodes
(or just have less Nodes, and as such less Clutter in the Weapon Tree)

[Malrock]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 March 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

Actually this could work, but their values would have to be less and such spread over more Nodes
(or just have less Nodes, and as such less Clutter in the Weapon Tree)

Oh i am all for less clutter in the weapon tree. current tree (PGI's) is horribly designed and terribly inefficient.

[Adamant80]

Yours:
I like it.

Current:
Why do I have to invest in missile spread to max out my cool down? My locust-1v doesn't have missiles and many of my 'mechs don't have missiles. Why do I have to invest in a ballistic skills on my Jester to get to range and cool-down when I don't have ballistics? I am also very disappointed that despite their claims that the previous quirks would be worked into the skill tree they are in fact not (for example IS ppc velocity on the catapult-k2 and warhammer-6r). There has been a lot of nerfs because of this.

Edited by Adamant80, 03 March 2017 - 07:23 PM.