43 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

currently in the Weapon Skill Tree,
many feel they have to get things they dont need to get what they want,

Current Weapon Skill Tree,
as many have noted the Weapon Tree is so unorganized its hard to even find all of a single Skill,
let alone get all of the ones you want with out getting many you dont need,


so using PS i took it apart and reorganized the Weapon Tree,
with the Intent on making it easier to follow but still keeping it mostly the same,

this is the reorganized Tree, everything is more open, and easier to work with,
with this i feel many of the Weapon Tree Problems would go away,

i made it so you cant Blindly spec into - Heat Gen,
this is to put abit more cost into them, having to get others to get them,
however taking full Range or cooldown Trees will remedy this as it allows such,

i Also kept the Ammo Quirks to the Bottom,
as your probably ganna max a Tree if you are ganna use them,
so you are already likely to have a Branch down there to access them,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 03 March 2017 - 07:48 AM.

[Ruar]

Better, but still not what it should be. They just need to go linear and adjust costs so the more popular skills have a higher skill point requirement when compared to the less used skills. Anytime we are forced to take a skill we don't want/need in order to get to a skill we do want/need demonstrates poor design and thought.

[Queen of England]

Ruar, on 02 March 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Better, but still not what it should be. They just need to go linear and adjust costs so the more popular skills have a higher skill point requirement when compared to the less used skills. Anytime we are forced to take a skill we don't want/need in order to get to a skill we do want/need demonstrates poor design and thought.

It would probably be easier to change percentages until skill nodes were just more equal in value than to add multi-point cost nodes. Changing percentages doesn't require additional UI/backend programming.

[Kuaron]

According to Baradul, a part of the general skills hidden behind weapon-specific ones is part of the anti boating balancing. You tree loses this feature.

[Y E O N N E]

The utility of the Defense, Agility, and Operations trees is still so absolutely critical that I don't have enough points to even really specialize in one particular direction for one particular weapon type, let alone multiples.

AKA, the focus on boating is even worse now than it was before.

I also don't like the general velocity buff. Before, I could boost my AC/10 and keep the PPC where it was so the two could match up. Now I have to always suffer a gap...and that gap will get wider with each successive point in Velocity.

[PJohann]

That "tree" looks more like forest tbh. I don't really understand why devs want that concept of big trees with "must take what you don't want in order to get what you need". I mean, it works for somee mmo's and rpg's (Path of Exile is prime example of giant skill tree), but has literally no purpose in shooter game. They can make trees much better without all this nonsense. Instead of ugly uninformative bloated thing we need something simple and logical. I'll give and example:



This crude image needs a bit of explanation.
First: Tree splitted to designated branches. Each branch focus on one thing and many chaotic nodes combined into damage application and utility branches.
Second: Each branch has diminishing returns. The more you dig in, the less you get in return for same cost
Third: Greatly reduced number of nodes for each branch and added gateway node to unlock this particular tree (probably not needed)

If PGI will make every skilltree look like this one, it would far far easier to navigate, not as confusing for new players, much easier to balance and we don't need 91 point here for reasonable mech performance. 50 or even 40 would be enough for most mechs (why dont give underdog mechs quirk with +X maximum skill points?).

[Doctor Dinosaur]

Kuaron, on 02 March 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

According to Baradul, a part of the general skills hidden behind weapon-specific ones is part of the anti boating balancing. You tree loses this feature.

Anti-Boating-how could we achieve that?
It's pretty simple: Make non specific skills available without hiding them behind Laser/Missile/Ballistic skills.

Ok, now look at the current skill tree.
Now look back to the sentence above.
THEN look at Andi Nagasia's post.
Then wonder how PGI's tree could possibly prevent boating when you need to take almost the complete tree to get every heat, cooldown, velocity skill...

[soapyfrog]

Bad poll.

Neither option is good. If I were forced to pick one i would pick the new one but it is not good and still encourages boating.

The only way to discourage boating is to have nodes that benefit all weapon types, and preferably no, or as few as possible, weapon specific nodes.

The reason for this is that a mech with mixed weaponry needs to invest more skill points in the weapon tree to acheive the same benefit as a mech with a unified armament. The mixed mech therefore loses out in other trees, and the unified weapon mech will have an additional advantage over and above the natural advantage of not having to worry about differing cooldown, convergence, and ranges of varied weaponry.

The issue is the same issue we have now with quirks and modules. Any tonnage invested in weapons that are not receiving the maximum benefit from quirks and modules is comparatively less effective. Any mech whose quirks are spread between multiple weapon types is at a natural disadvantage to a mech whose quirks affect mainly one weapon type. the largest quirk bonus wins out, typically.

[Kuaron]

@ Yeonne Greene & PJohann:
Both is true, the point is: The tree needs a redesign to something that works, not just looks more organized.

@ Dinosaur:
If you want to boat, you take the general ones and the ones for your specific weapons. If part of the general ones are hidden, you can’t.

Edited by Kuaron, 03 March 2017 - 12:52 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Kuaron, on 03 March 2017 - 12:49 AM, said:

If you want to boat, you take the general ones and the ones for your specific weapons. If part of the general ones are hidden, you can’t.

If you make ALL the nodes general, then mixed builds are not at a skill buff disadvantage over boats.

[Cyrilis]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 March 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

basically yes, I like it. But It might be like shipping around the point of the skill tree that is to make weaponboating more difficult. Thus I am looking at it with mixed feelings.

PJohann, on 02 March 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

For me, this looks pretty much like a 1-1 transition of weapon modules tio skills. I do not see how this would make a difference to the current state.

I think the key of balancing in the skill tree system would not be baseline quirks, but different number of unlockable skill nodes on a variant base. The problem again is How to evaluate what variant will get how many skill points. concerning there might be changes to weapon stats and the incoming new tech this might mean that the number of nodes would need to be changed in terms of balancing. I think most players would not accept that.

Fazit... I do not know at the moment if this will work or not. Give the people time to get familiar with it and point out the benefits. There will be hate, no matter what is done by PGI.

My way to solve this problem:

Edited by Cyrilis, 03 March 2017 - 01:21 AM.

[Kuaron]

soapyfrog, on 03 March 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

If you make ALL the nodes general, then mixed builds are not at a skill buff disadvantage over boats.

True.
So which of the discussed trees has no specific nodes, the official one or Andi’s?

PJohann’s does, but it’s not even part of this topic initially.

[Bellum Dominum]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 March 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

The utility of the Defense, Agility, and Operations trees is still so absolutely critical that I don't have enough points to even really specialize in one particular direction for one particular weapon type, let alone multiples.

AKA, the focus on boating is even worse now than it was before.

I also don't like the general velocity buff. Before, I could boost my AC/10 and keep the PPC where it was so the two could match up. Now I have to always suffer a gap...and that gap will get wider with each successive point in Velocity.

I have encountered the same issue with cd reduction. In my SDR-5D I usually run 1lrg pulse and 2 medium lasers. with range module for the mediums and cd reduciton for the lrg pulse. This brings all three weapons to very close to the same range and cd (current system), new system... well it kills that functionality for me with the 'universal' nodes

[Ruar]

PJohann, on 02 March 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

That "tree" looks more like forest tbh. I don't really understand why devs want that concept of big trees with "must take what you don't want in order to get what you need". I mean, it works for somee mmo's and rpg's (Path of Exile is prime example of giant skill tree), but has literally no purpose in shooter game. They can make trees much better without all this nonsense. Instead of ugly uninformative bloated thing we need something simple and logical. I'll give and example:



This crude image needs a bit of explanation.
First: Tree splitted to designated branches. Each branch focus on one thing and many chaotic nodes combined into damage application and utility branches.
Second: Each branch has diminishing returns. The more you dig in, the less you get in return for same cost
Third: Greatly reduced number of nodes for each branch and added gateway node to unlock this particular tree (probably not needed)

If PGI will make every skilltree look like this one, it would far far easier to navigate, not as confusing for new players, much easier to balance and we don't need 91 point here for reasonable mech performance. 50 or even 40 would be enough for most mechs (why dont give underdog mechs quirk with +X maximum skill points?).

This is exactly what I think would work the best. Number of nodes and values can easily be changed but they need to be in linear format with diminished returns.

How does help stop boating? It's not and TBH there is no way for the skill system to stop boating. The skill system can definitely help mixed builds, but it won't stop boating. The reason is because boating is more about hardpoints and quirks than it is skills. Mixed builds however are going to rely heavily on skills in order to give them parity.

The image shows the benefits to mixed builds because you can get a 9% boost to missiles and a 9% boost to AC with six points while those six points will only get a single weapon a 12% boost. The mixed weapon build gets a bigger overall boost to DPS while the boater gets a more focused boost to their single weapon system. Which is actually pretty balanced.

[Andi Nagasia]

soapyfrog, on 03 March 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

Bad poll.

Neither option is good. If I were forced to pick one i would pick the new one but it is not good and still encourages boating.

The only way to discourage boating is to have nodes that benefit all weapon types, and preferably no, or as few as possible, weapon specific nodes.

The reason for this is that a mech with mixed weaponry needs to invest more skill points in the weapon tree to acheive the same benefit as a mech with a unified armament. The mixed mech therefore loses out in other trees, and the unified weapon mech will have an additional advantage over and above the natural advantage of not having to worry about differing cooldown, convergence, and ranges of varied weaponry.

The issue is the same issue we have now with quirks and modules. Any tonnage invested in weapons that are not receiving the maximum benefit from quirks and modules is comparatively less effective. Any mech whose quirks are spread between multiple weapon types is at a natural disadvantage to a mech whose quirks affect mainly one weapon type. the largest quirk bonus wins out, typically.

its not a bad poll, im just asking if my PS vs looks better then whats currently in the PTS,
if you think both are bad thats ok, you dont have to vote in every poll,

i understand the need for splinting up the tree, to help mechs diversify,
Merging all Cooldowns / Range / Velocity / Heat gen into one for all weapons was good,
but the Mixed unorganized Tree also has a problem, if im running a CN9, mixed build i get penalized for it,
-
the weapon tree went from encouraging boating,
to now penalizing all kinds of weapon play, you dont benefit unless you max out most of the Tree,
its not very fair to have an all energy WLF or CRB looking for Heat Gen and Duration Quirks(18Nodes),
to have to spend 30Nodes to get them, and also with that get 8% Velocity and 3Missile Crit Chance,
-
perhaps im looking too far into it, but even getting all Velocity or all Heat Gen doesnt mean you will boat,
and saying un-organizing the tree will help discourage boating, its just discouraging the weapon tree,
-
what we need is a reason to not boat weapons, this unorganization this isnt it,
(Skill Tree Should Take Inconsideration Number Of Like Weapons Equipped!)

[Horseman]

I said it before, but I will say it again: PGI is trying to kill one bird too many with the same stone. Skill trees should be rolled in gradually, first replacing the existing module system, only in second (and possible third) rounds replacing the pilot skills and chassis quirks. The chassis quirks should be exchanged for "specialty" trees, eg a Hunchback 4G would probably get trees like "Brawler" and "Ballistic Specialist".

1. The current tree is better than what was there before. It's also still a mess.
2. I don't like the currently far too small quirk values. Less nodes with more meaningful values are the way to go (even if weapon nodes cost multiple SPs each).
3. We hit weapon-type-specific nodes far too early, I think.
4. All projectile velocity / cluster spread / beam duration nodes should be merged together into a single "Precision" node type.
5. Heat Generation of all kinds should probably go into the Operations tree (which should really turn into a dedicated Heat Management tree, with defensive node types moved elsewhere and options to spec into faster heat dissipation or larger heat capacity.) except for a handful of nodes far into the weapon tree (possibly requiring weapon cooldown nodes first.

[soapyfrog]

Andi Nagasia, on 03 March 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

i understand the need for splinting up the tree, to help mechs diversify,
Merging all Cooldowns / Range / Velocity / Heat gen into one for all weapons was good,
but the Mixed unorganized Tree also has a problem, if im running a CN9, mixed build i get penalized for it,

Splitting up the tree encourages boating. So it doe snot help diversity and there does not seem to be a "need".

Quote

the weapon tree went from encouraging boating,
to now penalizing all kinds of weapon play, you dont benefit unless you max out most of the Tree,
its not very fair to have an all energy WLF or CRB looking for Heat Gen and Duration Quirks(18Nodes),
to have to spend 30Nodes to get them, and also with that get 8% Velocity and 3Missile Crit Chance,

The weapon tree went from encouraging boating to still encouraging boating. It encourages it slightly less, but it is still a pro-boating tree, with no encouragement to mixed builds.

Quote

perhaps im looking too far into it, but even getting all Velocity or all Heat Gen doesnt mean you will boat,
and saying un-organizing the tree will help discourage boating, its just discouraging the weapon tree

Any weapon specific buffs on any node is an encouragement to boat.

To put it in simplistic terms: Let's say there are 3 nodes, one for laser duration, one for projectile velocity, and one for missile spread.

I have a mixed build of lasers, autocannons and missiles. To get maximum benefit I must get all 3 nodes.

I have a unified build with just lasers. To get maximum benefit I need only one node.

The unified build therfore has 2 skill points I can spend elsewhere, giving me an automatic advantage over and above the natural advantages of boating.

This holds true whether you pepper generic nodes amongst the specific ones or not. The Mixed build will ALWAYS need to spend more SP.

The ONLY solution is to have each node affect all weapon types. Generic cooldown and heat gen, and then combination nodes that give laser duration, missile spread, and projectile velocity all in one.

[WolvesX]

Good job OP much better! LIKE

[Andi Nagasia]

WolvesX, on 03 March 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

Good job OP much better! LIKE

i try,

[ArmageddonKnight]

@OP

As a bridge, or half way point between an ideal tree and what we have. Its greats. I much prefer it.

Does it have problems, could it be better, hell yes. But i would be contempt with your version going live, whislt the current PTS version will in all honesty result in me playing less.
I wont stop, i just wont play as much as i wont be having as much fun.
My forte in MWO is DPS builds, and with the CD nerfs and the current skill tree, all my mechs and all my builds have been hammered hard.