74 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Under the new skill tree system players will only need to spend 8 SP in the firepower skill tree to get 20% velocity on their ballistics/missiles. Isn't that too big of a bonus for too little cost? I'm just imagining the potency of FLD builds (notably poptarts), and dakka builds getting a big boost from this, especially on Clan meta mechs. With set of 8 quirks and TCMK1, Jade Kite can actually get 50% CERPPC velocity, in exchange for bit lower energy hardpoints. That equals to 1950 m/s CERPPCs.

What do you think?

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2017 - 03:50 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

With set of 8 quirks and TCMK1, Jade Kite can actually get 50% CERPPC velocity

[Zergling]

The trees are just awful, and should be scrapped for a direct point allocation system.

[Davegt27]

Quote

The trees are just awful, and should be scrapped for a direct point allocation system.

can you describe a direct point allocation system?

I have never heard of it

[Paigan]

Davegt27, on 02 March 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

can you describe a direct point allocation system?

I have never heard of it

I don't know what he means, either, but there are a ton of ways to build a balanced skill system.

For example:
Every skill point in the same category costs more than the previous. Meaning if you wanna really specialize in / max out something ("boat"), you will end up with way less overall skill points assigned that someone else who distributed them more broadly.
(simple number examples: 5 Velocity skill nodes. Node #1 costs 1 point, #2 costs 2, ... #5 costs 5. If you REALLY wanna crank up velocity, you will need to spend 15 points to get all 5 nodes. This even reflects the technical complexity and/or learning curve of reality. Extremely simple. Extremely balanced)

The current (and a little weird) skill "tree" system of MWO makes not much sense on the one hand (you need to improve hill climbing to make your Mech run cooler ... wuuuut?) and it does hardly any balancing on the other hand.
Minutes after reading the new layout, I'm already close to max out like 80% of all desirable attributes and just cut away all the crap. I will engineer one optimal build once and never change it again.

I'm usually defending PGI (being a developer myself, knowing how complicated stuff is under the hood that customers have not even the slightest idea of), but here I'm really tending to say "they have no idea what they're doing".

Edited by Paigan, 02 March 2017 - 04:19 AM.

[El Bandito]

Paigan, on 02 March 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

I'm usually defending PGI (being a developer myself, knowing how complicated stuff is under the hood that customers have not even the slightest idea of), but here I'm really tending to say "they have no idea what they're doing".

When it comes to lead developers of MWO:




According to the leaderboard stats, those decision makers haven't touched MWO for a long time.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2017 - 04:22 AM.

[The Lobsters]

That new skill tree.....

Well there goes my dream of syncing up my ppc velocities with my autocannons.

[Ruccus]

El Bandito, on 02 March 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

According to the leaderboard stats, those decision makers haven't touched MWO for a long time.

I wouldn't be surprised if Developer accounts aren't included in the leaderboard stats. You know someone would argue that something is being changed because a certain Developer's KDR was too high or too low, or win/loss ratio is too high or low, etc. and that's not constructive.

[El Bandito]

Ruccus, on 02 March 2017 - 04:47 AM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Developer accounts aren't included in the leaderboard stats. You know someone would argue that something is being changed because a certain Developer's KDR was too high or too low, or win/loss ratio is too high or low, etc. and that's not constructive.

They are included--you can see Paul Inouye's, and Alexander Garden's stats, for example, at least in earlier seasons. Devs can of course use smurf accounts, but unless they prove me otherwise, I am gonna stay skeptical, and stay in my belief that Russ and Paul are very detached from their own game, in terms of personal gameplay experience.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2017 - 04:54 AM.

[Zergling]

Davegt27, on 02 March 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

can you describe a direct point allocation system?

I have never heard of it

Want velocity buffs? Put skill points into that, directly, without having to waste any points on junk you don't want.

Just have a set of categories, where each skill point in one bonus is worth balanced against the bonus gained from a skill point in another category.
Keep limits to the maximums to how many points can be put into a specific bonus to prevent it from being stacked too high, of course, but otherwise give players the freedom to put points into the things they want.

There doesn't have to be anything like diminishing returns either. The system can be incredibly simple and still allow for a ton of customisation/choice if the bonuses and number of skill points available are balanced right.


Example of this at work, Diablo 3's Paragon points system:


Although in that case, the bonuses are segregated into 4 categories. Such segregation between firepower/mobility/etc categories could also work in MWO.


Further example of how it'd work (don't take this as anything other than a rough example):

Weapon Cooldown, 0.5% per skill point, maximum of 10 skill points / 5% CD
Weapon Velocity, 5% per skill point, maximum of 5 skill points / 25% Velocity
Acceleration, 5% per skill point, maximum of 5 skill points, 25% Acceleration

Just let players put points into whatever bonus they want, with no restrictions of having to spend points in other stuff first.
The trees in the PTS are completely unnecessary, complicating the whole system and frustrating players with all the junk nodes.

Edited by Zergling, 02 March 2017 - 04:53 AM.

[Acehilator]

Zergling, on 02 March 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

[snip]

What he said... +1 for emphasis.

[DaZur]

I don't have an issue with the stacking advantages... It's the fact that there is no compensatory trade off of equal value.

IMHO the skill tree should be more like a sliding scale. The more you invest in one area, the less availability there is elsewhere.

Yes, I understand the point allocation system is similar to this but I don't think the trade-off is harsh enough.

As I see it... Fine, you want to commit to a PPFLD build? Understand "all" your other attributes will be stunted to afford you that luxury.

[Zergling]

DaZur, on 02 March 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

I don't have an issue with the stacking advantages... It's the fact that there is no compensatory trade off of equal value.

IMHO the skill tree should be more like a sliding scale. The more you invest in one area, the less availability there is elsewhere.

Yes, I understand the point allocation system is similar to this but I don't think the trade-off is harsh enough.

As I see it... Fine, you want to commit to a PPFLD build? Understand "all" your other attributes will be stunted to afford you that luxury.

It's easier to balance it that way with a point allocation system versus complicated trees, making it more likely for it to be a good system.

Edited by Zergling, 02 March 2017 - 05:37 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Main problem that will **** things up is that they will reduce IS velocity quirks (right?) and the give them back as skills (ok!), but at the same time giving NGR and KDK-3 the same buffs without the pre-nerf (not ok!).

I didn't check out the latest build but so far the skill tree has been an effective buff to the best clan mechs. That's like full ******.

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 March 2017 - 02:52 AM, said:

Someone is making memes from old child books about ancient myths ... intresting.
Didnt see this in ages, next time i visit my parents i ll have to look if it s still in one of the bookshelvs.

And on the topic:
Hell ya, more velocitiy is always nice.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

PGI works on a system that is intended to curb people trying to game the system

People like Zergling wants PGI to make an easier to game system.

And people wonder why the playerbase will never be happy.

I get what PGI's doing here, they want a spheregrid, they want something that forces you to diversify, they're trying to get you AWAY form the current meta.

But everyone's stuck in their ways, it's why you want a direct point system zerg, because then it's easy to game the system and get EXACTLY what you want.

and that's the point, PGI doesn't want you to have exactly what you want, because once you start doing that, you further break game balance.

[kesmai]

What's the outcry for?
Did anyone expect less from pgi?
They will release the tree and change it every second patch.
They will requirk mechs and change the quirks at the same speed.
At the end of the cycle they will be almost at the starting point, but everyone has gotten used to it and will praise the 'best balance' ever...

[Zergling]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 02 March 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

People like Zergling wants PGI to make an easier to game system.

Don't put words in my mouth, or falsely attribute motivations.

I want a working system that makes sense, and can be balanced. Right now you there is a bunch of 'must have' picks that suck of almost all points and prevent any choice from occuring, while players have to spend excessive amounts of points for small gains due to all the junk nodes.


Like, look at how unbalanced the skill points to benefit ratio is in the Firepower tree; 20% Velocity costs 8 points, versus -15% Laser Duration costing 14 points, or -7.5% Missile Spread also costing 14 points.

Range? Ha, 28 points to get +15%.

In an ideal system, each of those bonuses would cost the same amount to max out, and have equal value to builds that make use of them.
But with the trees, that isn't possible; they are simply too complicated for it.

Edited by Zergling, 02 March 2017 - 06:14 AM.

[El Bandito]

Duke Nedo, on 02 March 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

Main problem that will **** things up is that they will reduce IS velocity quirks (right?) and the give them back as skills (ok!), but at the same time giving NGR and KDK-3 the same buffs without the pre-nerf (not ok!).

I didn't check out the latest build but so far the skill tree has been an effective buff to the best clan mechs. That's like full ******.

Correct. Rifleman-3N for example, got its ballistic velocity quirk reduced from 40% to 20% in the new PTS patch, and you have to make that up with the skill tree. Meanwhile, KDK-3 can get 20% velocity, something it could never have before, just from skill tree alone. Which is bullcrap.

At least my ARC-5W can lurm with +30% missile speed cause its velocity hasn't been nerfed...

Edited by El Bandito, 02 March 2017 - 06:10 AM.

[CygnusX7]

PGI's gonna PGI.