91 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

I think that they should do away with the refund for modules, then let's see how those grinders wail about it!

[Danjo San]

It's cheap. What you get is much more for much less. Less than 6mil for seismic, radar derp, range, cooldown, etc...

To be honest we get way to much for that price...
It should be significantly less SP. Price can stay at 5.4mil. But make that 40-50 SP max.

[Magik Jack]

Danjo San, on 08 March 2017 - 02:16 AM, said:

It's cheap. What you get is much more for much less. Less than 6mil for seismic, radar derp, range, cooldown, etc...

To be honest we get way to much for that price...
It should be significantly less SP. Price can stay at 5.4mil. But make that 40-50 SP max.

Again, only if you didn't move modules around. PGI assumes that everyone buys modules for every mech they play, and never moves them around, so yes, by that logic you get a lot of cbills back to level your mech. But if you didn't do that, you are screwed and will be punished for it. I don't think PGI intended the new system to do that.

[Danjo San]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

Again, only if you didn't move modules around. PGI assumes that everyone buys modules for every mech they play, and never moves them around, so yes, by that logic you get a lot of cbills back to level your mech. But if you didn't do that, you are screwed and will be punished for it. I don't think PGI intended the new system to do that.

No ... Not at all. 5.4 mil... How many matches do you need for that. I can get that in an evening with no problem and no premium time active. Even without using a hero mech

[Magik Jack]

Danjo San, on 08 March 2017 - 02:48 AM, said:

No ... Not at all. 5.4 mil... How many matches do you need for that. I can get that in an evening with no problem and no premium time active. Even without using a hero mech

Do the math. For 40 mechs I want to re-skill I need 216 million cbills. I get 30-40 million back from modules. Are you really suggesting that I should re-grind 170 million cbills in game to get back what I already had? That is a year or more of playing; not everyone has that kind of time to put in 10-20 hours a week. What about people with even more mechs?

[50 50]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

Again, only if you didn't move modules around. PGI assumes that everyone buys modules for every mech they play, and never moves them around, so yes, by that logic you get a lot of cbills back to level your mech. But if you didn't do that, you are screwed and will be punished for it. I don't think PGI intended the new system to do that.

No, I don't think they intended it to punish players who only have a handful of modules but lots of mechs.
It was more about removing the module system and providing compensation for something that was no longer in game.
The big noise about the refund is coming from players who have somehow managed to retain their sanity by swapping the same 4 modules between their 200 mechs.
The compulsion was to buy more mechs but not spend a single c-bill more than they needed to for an item that could be swapped around. There is a possibility that they might also only have 1 engine, 1 laser, 1 PPC etc and these keep getting swapped around as well.

It's like buying a car and you might change the tires, give it new seats and a paint job.
Then you go and buy another one and do the same thing.
But when ever you want to drive one of them you have to take the headlights off the car that currently has them and attach them on the one you want to drive.

With the module refund though, if you had 1/3rd of your mechs with a full set of 4 modules, you would most likely have a refund large enough to buy all the skills you needed for all of your mechs and still have some left over.
1/3rd.
10 out of 30 mechs.
37 out of 111 mechs.

But if you have somehow managed to only buy enough modules to outfit a handful of your 100+ mechs, don't blame the rest of the player base for a choice you made. No, it wasn't compulsory to buy the modules, but it wasn't compulsory to buy another mech either.

Might make an interesting poll though.

Edited by 50 50, 08 March 2017 - 03:34 AM.

[Fetherator]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Do the math. For 40 mechs I want to re-skill I need 216 million cbills. I get 30-40 million back from modules. Are you really suggesting that I should re-grind 170 million cbills in game to get back what I already had? That is a year or more of playing; not everyone has that kind of time to put in 10-20 hours a week. What about people with even more mechs?

What is the difference?
Your situation now is the same as before.
You haven't all your Mechs equipped with Modules, in PTS u wont be able to get all Skills for every Mech.

I have all Mechs Mastered and with Modules Equipped, so i get the same back in PTS.

Edited by Fetherator, 08 March 2017 - 03:38 AM.

[Magik Jack]

50 50, on 08 March 2017 - 03:23 AM, said:

No, I don't think they intended it to punish players who only have a handful of modules but lots of mechs.
It was more about removing the module system and providing compensation for something that was no longer in game.
The big noise about the refund is coming from players who have somehow managed to retain their sanity by swapping the same 4 modules between their 200 mechs.
The compulsion was to buy more mechs but not spend a single c-bill more than they needed to for an item that could be swapped around. There is a possibility that they might also only have 1 engine, 1 laser, 1 PPC etc and these keep getting swapped around as well.

It's like buying a car and you might change the tires, give it new seats and a paint job.
Then you go and buy another one and do the same thing.
But when ever you want to drive one of them you have to take the headlights off the car that currently has them and attach them on the one you want to drive.

With the module refund though, if you had 1/3rd of your mechs with a full set of 4 modules, you would most likely have a refund large enough to buy all the skills you needed for all of your mechs and still have some left over.
1/3rd.
10 out of 30 mechs.
37 out of 111 mechs.

But if you have somehow managed to only buy enough modules to outfit a handful of your 100+ mechs, don't blame the rest of the player base for a choice you made. No, it wasn't compulsory to buy the modules, but it wasn't compulsory to buy another mech either.

Might make an interesting poll though.... I'll go make one.

Cleaving to the heart of the matter then; half the fun of this game is playing different Mechs. That is reason many of us ended up with more Mechs than modules for them. Do we really want to tell new players that they can't buy another mech and enjoy the game because cbills are required for everything related to that first mech they bought? That is like saying you buy a mech, and, even in the current system, you spend 2-3 months grinding for it, and ONLY it. Sorry to tell you, new players don't do that. At least none that I know. Even those that spend real money on a mech pack or two are put off by the cbill sinks as they currently are. Variety among playstyles is one of the things going for this game, and that means buying and trying different mechs and being able to afford to get them to a playable level beyond being fodder ingame. But the new changes are going to make it even harder for a new playerbase to get going. But then again, maybe I am presume too much; maybe veteran players don't want newer players around and would rather pick up the slack with their wallets for PGI. That would also be an interesting poll.

Fetherator, on 08 March 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

What is the difference?
Your situation now is the same as before.
You haven't all your Mechs equipped with Modules, in PTS u wont be able to get all Skills for every Mech.

I have all Mechs Mastered and with Modules Equipped, so i get the same back in PTS.

Never heard of moving modules around? The option was always there.

Edited by Captain Hawkins, 08 March 2017 - 04:15 AM.

[Danjo San]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Do the math. For 40 mechs I want to re-skill I need 216 million cbills. I get 30-40 million back from modules. Are you really suggesting that I should re-grind 170 million cbills in game to get back what I already had? That is a year or more of playing; not everyone has that kind of time to put in 10-20 hours a week. What about people with even more mechs?

okay ... lets break this down:
You have 40 Mechs!
you get 30-40 refund. average that to 35. Some modules cost 3 some cost 6 average that to 4.5
leaves you with 7.7 Modules ... okay lets say 8
with an average of 4 Modules a mastered Mech can carry you have 2 "finished" Mechs. Not 40
Now you claim you want what you have now!
Okay, first of all you can't get exactly what you have now without having to skill Nodes, that resemble modules in the current system. But lets go with you math for now.
40 x 5.4mil=216mil. That is correct, if you take all 91 skillpoints to "Get what you have now"

With that you get:

Radar Derp 6mil
Seismic Sensor 6mil
360 Target Retention, 6mil
Target Decay, 6mil
Shock Absorbance, 6mil
Improved Gyros, 2mil
Cooldown, not only for one weapon, but for all, 3mil each
Range, 3mil each
Hill climb, 6 mil

plus more depending on what direction you skill

so thats: 44mil worth of modules on one mech, note you can get more out of this if you choose to. but this is a fair number to calculate with.

now 40 mechs "finished" = mastered + modules cost in the current system (4 modules average, 4.5mil per module average) 720million Cbills
for 40 Mechs to carry the equivalent in modules (new system vs. current), that would be 40mechs times 44mil =1760mil

Now for what would cost you 1.760.000.000 Cbills you pay 216.000.000
thats 1.544.000.000 C-Bills you actually save.

But hey, lets go with what you have now.
2 finished Mechs= modules + Mastered. you get 30-40mil from that. Thats enough to "finish" 6.4 Mechs. straight from your refunds. and each one of these 6.4 Mechs will have more than your 2 finished mechs atm.
Now consider just "mastering" your mechs to what you have now.
That will not cost 5.4 mil, and you will get more out of that, because you have to take Gyros and Shock Absorbance for instance to get to what you have now. (2+6mil Modules worth) not to mention the others you have to unlock along the way.

So fact of the matter is:

You are asking for more than you have now, and are complaining that they are not handing it to you on a silver plate.

[Fetherator]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

Never heard of moving modules around? The option was always there.

Sure i did.
Had to do this many times in the early days. But also i had to buy 3 Mechs of a kind, now i can choose one.
I am no Collector (except 4 modules). So i play the Mechs i bought till they are mastered.
Like u said, it was an "option".
My option was: to not buy every Mech. I even sold some to spare my mechbays.
See, that is what u get from "options".

Question: Did you master all of your Mechs ?

I understand, you have to do much work to get all your Mechs going maxed.
From my position, i have to do much work too,
Yes i have plenty of XP in my Mechs so no problem there, refunds for my modules?
No problem either, but problems begin if i want to change any loadout on my used Mechs.
I have to reskill to make them more usable to loadout. <--- That is what you did with your modules, only difference now is:
It will cost XP/GXP instead of searching 4 the modules and unequip/equip them.

[Danjo San]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

But the new changes are going to make it even harder for a new playerbase to get going. But then again, maybe I am presume too much; maybe veteran players don't want newer players around and would rather pick up the slack with their wallets for PGI.

Ah yes ... the new player argument.

Okay once again simple math can help you see things more clearly.
Take the average cost of a mech (to keep it simple I took the cheapest and the most expensive and divided them by two)
Locust 1.388.242 and Executioner 18.194.422 ... equals an average cost of 9.791.332
Remember the Rule of three?
thats 29.373.996 to only own enough mechs to be able to master them to the point that you could actually pass the elite into the mastery skill. Now lets ignore the fact that tons of gxp are needed to unlock modules and efficiencies
3,500 for each weapon module + approximately 250000 for all the rest. Feel free to create a new, blank account and add it up for yourself.
okay so now you have
29.4mil for mechs to pay plus one set of modules, 6mil derp, 6mil seismic, 3 mil range, 3mil cooldown. Slap 18mil onto that
47.4mil to get one Mech to the "competitive finished level"
Skill Tree system will allow new players to skip the GXP grind for Pilot Skills, skip the Rule of three and go straight to a mastered finished competitive mech for an average cost of 15.1mil C-Bills, compared to the 47.4mil thats a bargain!
regarding pure cost it is much cheaper and new player friendly than the current system ever was!

[Magik Jack]

Danjo San, on 08 March 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

okay ... lets break this down:
You have 40 Mechs!
you get 30-40 refund. average that to 35. Some modules cost 3 some cost 6 average that to 4.5
leaves you with 7.7 Modules ... okay lets say 8
with an average of 4 Modules a mastered Mech can carry you have 2 "finished" Mechs. Not 40
Now you claim you want what you have now!
Okay, first of all you can't get exactly what you have now without having to skill Nodes, that resemble modules in the current system. But lets go with you math for now.
40 x 5.4mil=216mil. That is correct, if you take all 91 skillpoints to "Get what you have now"

With that you get:

Radar Derp 6mil
Seismic Sensor 6mil
360 Target Retention, 6mil
Target Decay, 6mil
Shock Absorbance, 6mil
Improved Gyros, 2mil
Cooldown, not only for one weapon, but for all, 3mil each
Range, 3mil each
Hill climb, 6 mil

plus more depending on what direction you skill

so thats: 44mil worth of modules on one mech, note you can get more out of this if you choose to. but this is a fair number to calculate with.

now 40 mechs "finished" = mastered + modules cost in the current system (4 modules average, 4.5mil per module average) 720million Cbills
for 40 Mechs to carry the equivalent in modules (new system vs. current), that would be 40mechs times 44mil =1760mil

Now for what would cost you 1.760.000.000 Cbills you pay 216.000.000
thats 1.544.000.000 C-Bills you actually save.

But hey, lets go with what you have now.
2 finished Mechs= modules + Mastered. you get 30-40mil from that. Thats enough to "finish" 6.4 Mechs. straight from your refunds. and each one of these 6.4 Mechs will have more than your 2 finished mechs atm.
Now consider just "mastering" your mechs to what you have now.
That will not cost 5.4 mil, and you will get more out of that, because you have to take Gyros and Shock Absorbance for instance to get to what you have now. (2+6mil Modules worth) not to mention the others you have to unlock along the way.

So fact of the matter is:

You are asking for more than you have now, and are complaining that they are not handing it to you on a silver plate.

Sure, the new system will be better down the line, I wasn't actually arguing that point. My point was that the old system allowed me to reserve the right to move modules around and avoid a lot of those costs you calculated as static items. Yes, I took the option and will pay for it, literally.

Yet even ignoring the fact that modules are going away and their ability to be modular, there is still the matter of the 50 odd points required for mastery (without modules), as I understand it, which is 3 million a mech. At 40 mechs, that is 120 million. Put simply, it does not matter if the new skill tree provides more in the long run, because all the xp for those mechs is now held as ransom behind a 120 million cbill wall. That isn't a silver plate, that is simply what I have now and earned under the current system without investing cbills, just my time.

For new players well, yes, not having to buy 3 mechs is good, but the upfront costs were already high with engines, weapons, and wanting to try new mechs. Whether it is better or not in the long run is not something a new player will really be aware of; all they will see is that they can't afford anything when making 50-70,000 cbills a round, and that it will mean 100s of matches in a single mech. I fear they will simply move on to another game.

[Dogstar]

Quote

You are asking for more than you have now, and are complaining that they are not handing it to you on a silver plate.

No. I'm not.

As it happens I'm capable of doing maths too, and with fewer assumptions than you: [color="#b27204"]https://mwomercs.com...10#entry5628210[/color]

Just under 4000 matches to grind the c-bills at an average of 28 matches a week (and dropping) is two and a half years to catch up. That's a lot of time where I won't be interested in buying new mechs and a lot of time where PGI isn't earning any money.

I'm asking them not to cut their own throats!

[Fetherator]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 05:02 AM, said:

.
.
.
For new players well, yes, not having to buy 3 mechs is good, but the upfront costs were already high with engines, weapons, and wanting to try new mechs. Whether it is better or not in the long run is not something a new player will really be aware of; all they will see is that they can't afford anything when making 50-70,000 cbills a round, and that it will mean 100s of matches in a single mech. I fear they will simply move on to another game.

Yes, i can partly agree with that. It is what i have done 4 the last Years in MWO still playin, not leaving.

[Danjo San]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 05:02 AM, said:

For new players well, yes, not having to buy 3 mechs is good, but the upfront costs were already high with engines, weapons, and wanting to try new mechs. Whether it is better or not in the long run is not something a new player will really be aware of; all they will see is that they can't afford anything when making 50-70,000 cbills a round, and that it will mean 100s of matches in a single mech. I fear they will simply move on to another game.

I didn't factor in the costs for engines, double heat sinks and weapons and varying layouts, because that is a factor you needed in both systems anyway.
But let's stick to the fact that one skill point costs 60k and 800XP, each match you play, gives you one more SP on average. After every turn you can hop into the skill tree and advance one point further, making your mech stronger with every match you play. How that discourages new players fails me. It's a level up after every match.

120mil Paywall. Yeah, it kinda is, however, it is hard to justify giving away 45-50 Nodes for free, which would be the equivalent to current mastery without "Module-Nodes"
How can you account for this? maybe making those Nodes free that used to be free in the current system and having the others cost more instead? you'd then have "Paywall Nodes" that gave you access to all of the Nodes needed that are down the line. However, then you'd have to unlock Paywall Nodes that cost a lot, while others are free. TBH that is not quite fair either isn't it? I can hear the outrage only thinking about it...

bottom line is, no matter what changes are applied someone will always feel stepped on. eg. Nerfs to Clans, Buffs to IS ... or similar actions from the past. And ever since day 1 players have cried on the forums, that this or that will destroy the game... over the period of time that I have been playing I've seen many changes. most of them actually made the game better and more balanced. I do not wish to return to some earlier state in most cases, the only ones being the ones that benefitted me in particular and while certain changes have restrained mechs from being viable at the same time others have evolved. compare prior resize Jenner and Catapult for instance...
This skill tree has the same effect.
It is not rewarding or punishing players for swapping or leaving modules in place!
PGI is changing a fundamental part of the functionality of skills. They are removing something from the game. Modules will be gone forever and must be refunded.
All of us will be paying the same price. All of us dedicated the same amount of time, All of us earn the same base amount of c-bills per match. Players that played more simply played more and hence earned more money. We will have to pay the same amount to skill our mechs again regardless of how many modules we once purchased or not. We all have the same paywall.

Lets put it another way. Say costs went down drastically so every player that mastered their mechs for free could master them again for free.
So you have 40 Mechs and get 35mil... lets say thats the baseline.
91Skill Points would cost 875.000 C-Bills. or 9.615C/Node
Now someone who has 40 mechs and 160Modules (4 average) gets 720.000.000 in return. will get enough refunds to master
822.85 Mechs at a baseline cost of 9.615C/Node ...

Does that sound fairer to you?

No matter how you put it. Players that own many modules, played a long time, therefore have tons of XP behind the very same paywall and will have to pay the very same amount that you have to.
It's a choice they made and they paid for that over the course of their pilot career the same amount you will have to pay for it with the proposed change!

[Dogstar]

Which is why anyone sensible is advocating that skill node costs need to start low and ramp up as you buy more. But hey, you're okay jack, so $&*% the rest!

[Danjo San]

Dogstar, on 08 March 2017 - 06:17 AM, said:

Which is why anyone sensible is advocating that skill node costs need to start low and ramp up as you buy more. But hey, you're okay jack, so $&*% the rest!

Now how is that helping your cause?

[Danjo San]

Dogstar, on 08 March 2017 - 05:33 AM, said:

No. I'm not.

As it happens I'm capable of doing maths too, and with fewer assumptions than you: [color=#b27204]https://mwomercs.com...10#entry5628210[/color]

Just under 4000 matches to grind the c-bills at an average of 28 matches a week (and dropping) is two and a half years to catch up. That's a lot of time where I won't be interested in buying new mechs and a lot of time where PGI isn't earning any money.

I'm asking them not to cut their own throats!

so you bought a ton of mechs with real $$$
you only own 9 modules.
You will get very little refund.

You are calling to ramp up costs for each skill node

You will still have to pay, no matter how, all of us have to pay the same amount for the same outcome. No matter when we played, how often we played, how many mechs we bought with $$$$$ how many modules we purchased with C-Bills.

No matter how cheap or expensive you make it. the players that have been playing for a very long time and have racked up c-bills worth in savings or modules will have it easier than a player that hasn't been playing long.

With every mech I buy for real cash, as you said you did, you get engines, weapons and premium time, pre order stuff aside, like modules. once you have amassed a bunch of engines and weapons, customization is close to free. if customization takes no more sink, and aquiring mechs doesn't either, you either have a bunch of c-bills saved up or you must have it sunk somewhere else. did you maybe buy and sell off engines at a horrible win-loss rate?
I have bought tons of mechs and packs with real cash as well. hardly ever did I buy mechs for c-bills. spent most of my money on engines and customization... once loadouts were free, aside the 1,5mil double heat sinks and Endo/Ferro ... the only sink left is modules. Once you have realized that, stocking up on modules comes naturally.
Other than that. All the mechs you bought are "C-Bill-Free" you purchased them directly, where did your 4.2mil/week go?
28 Matches a Week @ 150k/Match. you earned 218.400.000 C-bills last year. If they didn't go into modules, they went into loadout or stayed on the bank. Anything that goes into loadout stays there unless you start selling off all your inventory and buying it again... All Inventory you have must not be repurchased again for your next mechs loadout... so that 218mil must still be in your possession in one way or the other.
I'll go ahead and assume you saved it. as it didn't go into modules
you need roughly 48 Skillpoints for an almost equivalent level of mastery without modules (it cant be translated directly due to structure of the trees)
so 48SP X 111 Mechs X 60.000CBills/Node= 319.680.000 C-Bills
319.680.000-218.400.000=101.280.000 C-Bills
101.280.000 / 150.000Cbills/Match = 675,2 Matches
at 28 Matches a Week that is 24 Weeks. Not two and a half years.

Now if you have been buying and Selling Engines like crazy, preferably XL-Engines, you lose money every time you sell something and rebuy it later. Well then, that is your fault. Nothing PGI can do.


The major problem with your calculation is you own 9 Modules but calculate according to the new system to have all module benefits included. it doesn't work that way. sorry for that, but thats the way it is.

[Dogstar]

@Danjo Your assumptions are way off target, your maths is ludicrous, and your calculations are biased beyond belief

I have 2 million 'in the bank' so using your calcs that's more like 75 weeks

i.e a year and a half

Eve using your figure of 24 weeks that's still six months, a substantial amount of grinding for anyone!

A year and a half where PGI gets no money from me and anyone like me, which means that they are going to lose income, possibly enough that they go into a downward spiral that ends with them shutting down the servers, and that's he we're all stuffed because everything is gone

Little decisions can have big impacts

Edited by Dogstar, 08 March 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[R Valentine]

The cost is by far the biggest issue. Having useless nodes is just an extension of that. I'm literally paying for nodes that do nothing for my mech. It also makes testing new builds much, much less enjoyable, which degrades the playing value of the game. I own the damn mech. Let me do with it as a please. This is why we need PILOT skills and not mech skills. Mechs don't have skills. One skill tree that affects ALL mechs. Change it when you change mechs. No cost for respeccing. No cost for re-using nodes you've previously purchased. If they did that, the current iteration of the skill tree wouldn't even be so bad. At least the useless nodes I buy are only useless on some mechs, but not all of them. That's not wasted c-bills anymore.