91 replies to this topic

[Kali Rinpoche]

It appears the smoke of Rome burning got through to leadership.

Russ on Twitter say price will now be less that 60k per node. No official amount, but he realizes the #$%@ storm wasn't going away.

Hope its a relevant amount of difference.

Thanks for Listening.

[soapyfrog]

He still thinks respecs are free though, even though there are explicit costs in c-bills and xp to changing your skill tree around.

Attach the cost to SKILL POINTS not SKILL NODES. Respec costs go away.

[Phoolan Devi]

Captain Hawkins, on 08 March 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

But the new changes are going to make it even harder for a new playerbase to get going. But then again, maybe I am presume too much; maybe veteran players don't want newer players around and would rather pick up the slack with their wallets for PGI. That would also be an interesting poll. .

Quite the opposite! It is now way easier for new players to get a mech going. Much less grind, much less cost!

soapyfrog, on 10 March 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

He still thinks respecs are free though, even though there are explicit costs in c-bills and xp to changing your skill tree around.

Attach the cost to SKILL POINTS not SKILL NODES. Respec costs go away.

Wrong! There are no costs to respec your skill tree. Even the opposite, you can have more than 91 nodes open and change them around accordingly, for example if you change from a laser build to a dakka build or mixed build. What costs do you think are there.....?

[Phoolan Devi]

Baulven, on 08 March 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

. Nodes need to be a single purchase, .

They are now.

[Magik Jack]

Phoolan Devi, on 11 March 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

Quite the opposite! It is now way easier for new players to get a mech going. Much less grind, much less cost!

Care to elaborate?

Sure, you can argue that the new system has module benefits build right into it, and that is theoretically cheaper than buying modules in the current system and only needing one Mech to start out with. That is great, but the costs only add to day to day hellgrind a new player experiences.

I started almost a year ago. I remember the grind. It was and still is brutal in the current system, even when focusing on ONE mech and resigning yourself to basic skills. Before even thinking of buying a second mech I was dirt poor, and I played like **** so I couldn't make cbills effectively in matches. But I had to worry about engines/weapons/equipment/ferro/endo/artemis if I wanted to experiment with new builds. That grind for basic items isn't going away in the new system. Even worse, a lot of newbies like myself made terrible choices with our cbills not understanding the economy and how the game works. All these factors compound the problem, and adding another cbill sink will make it worse. At least in the old system costs of the rule of 3 and modules and consumables were out of sight and out of mind for new players, and not as required to perform at Tier 5. But the new upfront costs are not. They are right there from the get go, on top of everything else.

All in all, It does not matter if the new system will be better for newer players "down the line" when they see what they can do with it, because they will feel buried in the match to match cbill costs needed upfront and won't understand people who say "hey! it's way better than it was newbie! suck it up!" Even assuming a new player manages to not screw themselves financially by making bad cbill purchasing choices, when they do the math for grind ratio required to get the engines/weapons and equipment they need and still be able to level up, I fear it is going to make them uninstall.

Edited by Captain Hawkins, 11 March 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[Danjo San]

I remember making horrible choices when I started. Buying and selling and rebuying the same stuff again and again. But you realize that quite quickly and adapt your economy. Having to buy and master 3 variants was the point I couldn't understand. That made the grind much worse. The new system will be much more accessible.
People get stuck up on respec costs. However, lots of builds can be skilled on the firepower tree and just be left that way. All-Energy for instance... Changing from SPL to ER no problem. Missles from Srm to Lrm ... No respec needed. Certain ballistic heavy mechs... Just ask yourself beforehand does it really make sense to invest that many skill points on that single missle slot. When your primary clearly is ballistic.
The only difficult mechs are the Clan Omni Mechs. And not even all of them either.
New players in the current system tend to go to Is mechs. Cheaper to buy. Why should we assume that will change when the new skill tree drops.

Upfront costs... Thats not really an Issue. For the first 25 matches you are piloting unskilled trial mechs. Then you can buy your first own mech and modify it and even swap on some skills. The rest goes along the way.
Ya'll acting like a new mech must be maxed out before you can take it into battle. How many of your newly purchases mechs were mastered before you took them into their first match? Right. Not one. You masterd them on the go! The new skill tree won't be any different in that regard

[Wolf McNish]

Danjo San, on 08 March 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

Ah yes ... the new player argument.

Okay once again simple math can help you see things more clearly.
Take the average cost of a mech (to keep it simple I took the cheapest and the most expensive and divided them by two)
Locust 1.388.242 and Executioner 18.194.422 ... equals an average cost of 9.791.332
Remember the Rule of three?
thats 29.373.996 to only own enough mechs to be able to master them to the point that you could actually pass the elite into the mastery skill. Now lets ignore the fact that tons of gxp are needed to unlock modules and efficiencies
3,500 for each weapon module + approximately 250000 for all the rest. Feel free to create a new, blank account and add it up for yourself.
okay so now you have
29.4mil for mechs to pay plus one set of modules, 6mil derp, 6mil seismic, 3 mil range, 3mil cooldown. Slap 18mil onto that
47.4mil to get one Mech to the "competitive finished level"
Skill Tree system will allow new players to skip the GXP grind for Pilot Skills, skip the Rule of three and go straight to a mastered finished competitive mech for an average cost of 15.1mil C-Bills, compared to the 47.4mil thats a bargain!
regarding pure cost it is much cheaper and new player friendly than the current system ever was!

This!

I'm a rather new player myself, I had a look in open Beta, and then didn't play it for a long time, until about 4-5 months ago.

At the moment my only mastered mech is the Warhammer, and I love my whammies, sadly I sold my 6R when I was short on mech bays, got me a few (about 14) when they were on sale and then half a year of premium time when that was on sale.

I have 3 Hunchies which are now on elite, three Blackjacks which I'm in the process of mastering, one D-DC Atlas, one Centurion on the IS side.
As well as a Highlander IIC and a Hunchback IIC on the Clan side.

The problem for a new player with the current system is twofold:
1) you have to get three mechs to master one to use that one with the most efficiency, that means by three different versions of a chassis. Three versions of which you might not like 1 or 2, I have that problem with my Blackjack I love my rebuilt BJ-1 (77 kph speedtweaked and packing an AC-20 ) same as my BJ3, but the 1DC?
Oh boy, I've rebuilt it thrice and don't get along with it.

Also to get the same bonuses as with the new PTS you have to buy modules, something which a new player just might not do, given that he rather wants new mechs, to try out new versions that fit him or not.
On that note, the trials should be rotated, they have been the same for more than three months.

And for the price of one set of modules you can buy atleast an Awesome.

Also the rule of three fits the 4 mechbays a new player has almost fully, so under the system at the moment, a new player can't eve play multiple mechs, he can just play variants of the same mech, and if he wants to play something new he might have to sell a mech that he liked.

2) If you don't have three variants of one chassis, your mechs are stuck on the basic skills, my Atlas has afaik more than 60k experience on it, but I can't use it.
So I can only use that mech at base efficiency, same as my Highlander IIC or my Hunchie IIC.
Also once you unlocked the skills, your xp made on that mech goes to waste, unless you pay real money to convert that into GXP.
You can't use it on any other chassis of the same mechtype, you can't use it to unlock modules, unless you pay money to convert it, what should you do with it?

So the new system is actually better for a new player, as they can skill out the mechs that they have and try out more new mechs to find the ones that fit them best.

As for getting new mechs and the grind, remember that 25 Million that you get for the first 25 games?
They do help rather a lot in that, so getting a new mech as a brand new player doesn't take 2-3 months, it takes 25 games.
At the moment, the best thing for the player is to buy three variants of the chassis he wants, under the new system he could for example decide to buy only one and skill it fully or buy two different mechs.

Also if you complain about the lack of money that you get, why don't you buy some?
That's what we do in the unit, buy modules, put them on all the mechs that we have, and use them as a banking account.

We only buy the mechs we need, for example in my case enough to get a full clan dropdeck that I can work with in faction play.
And when the new system drops, we're going to buy the mechs we want, as well as respeccing our mechs.
So at the moment the mech aquisition is pretty much on hold, while we put money in the bank to buy them later, when we don't have to worry about the rule of three.

Also not everybody wants to drive 200 mechs, some people just want to find the mechs that fit them, and then get really good with those.
And that means trying out multiple different mechs, which makes it very expensive to buy 3 each all the time.
Especially when you can't buy mechpacks each time the come out.

My forte seem to be heavies and assaults, but but I had to buy 3 hunchies and 3 Blackjacks to use them with full efficiency.

Grown to love my hunchies though.

@Dogstar you say that Danjo's math is incorrect, as long as you can conclusively prove that, it is just an assertion.

And given the 160,000 max I think certain people are talking about QP only, what about FP?
You get a lot more money there, without Premo time I got between 200-600k per match, with premo I get usually between 300k and 1.1 million. (The 200 and 300k figures are pretty ****** losses, usually I make atleast 500k with premo on a loss.)
In short, with a good unit or an organized team/drop you can make up to six million in an evening easily.
And you don't even need to be in a unit for a good drop, just go LFG and you will be taken on, if we see a good pug we usally invite him into our group.

I also did some stupid stuff when I first came back and suddenly had 25 millions, I had an HBK-4G with a Gauss rifle still left from my Open Beta days, in which I was rather successful back then, so I bought three more hunchies only to find out that I wasn't as good with them anymore.
Sold them, I had only four mechbays after all, and ground for my first Whammy, as 7S that I still have.
Under the new System I could just buy one mech each of what I find interesting and then try them out to see if I get along with them.

Also I find it quite ironic, that certain people attacking the new system accuse people defending the new system as only taking their situation as valid, but do exactly the same when it comes to the defense of their position.
You claim the system is bad because it negatively impacts you, and then claim that because of that it is bad for all.

As one who has got 13 mechs of his own it's rather ironic to see when people with 200 or more mechs talk about how bad the new system would be for new players with few mechs.......

[Phoolan Devi]

Captain Hawkins, on 11 March 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

Care to elaborate?

I'll try!

Quote

Sure, you can argue that the new system has module benefits build right into it, and that is theoretically cheaper than buying modules in the current system and only needing one Mech to start out with. That is great, but the costs only add to day to day hellgrind a new player experiences.

This is the most important change for a new player and the better experience they get! You call it a day to day hellgrind and the benefits of modules adding to it? Quite on the contrary....remember the grind before you had enough gxp to unlock your first module!

Quote

I started almost a year ago. I remember the grind. It was and still is brutal in the current system, even when focusing on ONE mech and resigning yourself to basic skills. Before even thinking of buying a second mech I was dirt poor, and I played like **** so I couldn't make cbills effectively in matches. But I had to worry about engines/weapons/equipment/ferro/endo/artemis if I wanted to experiment with new builds. That grind for basic items isn't going away in the new system. Even worse, a lot of newbies like myself made terrible choices with our cbills not understanding the economy and how the game works. All these factors compound the problem, and adding another cbill sink will make it worse. At least in the old system costs of the rule of 3 and modules and consumables were out of sight and out of mind for new players, and not as required to perform at Tier 5. But the new upfront costs are not. They are right there from the get go, on top of everything else.

So we are in the same ballpark here, since I also started this game a little over a year now (January 2016) and I also remember the grind.....well, not so much, since I was busy understanding the game, tactics etc pp. I too did horrible choices, some even so stupid, I would be embarrassed to tell (where I actually sunk real money very badly).

The new system actually makes it more fun, since you do not have to restrain to basic skills because you have to grind your second mech.....and then your third. You now can fully master a mech, if you want to and by the time that is done, one definitely has enough money to spend on a new mech with full equipment to go because, to be honest, those 60k c-bills are a joke!

Quote

All in all, It does not matter if the new system will be better for newer players "down the line" when they see what they can do with it, because they will feel buried in the match to match cbill costs needed upfront and won't understand people who say "hey! it's way better than it was newbie! suck it up!" Even assuming a new player manages to not screw themselves financially by making bad c-bill purchasing choices, when they do the math for grind ratio required to get the engines/weapons and equipment they need and still be able to level up, I fear it is going to make them uninstall.

Again, what c-bill costs upfront are you talking about? I seriously do not get it!

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 11 March 2017 - 09:12 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Phoolan Devi, on 11 March 2017 - 03:30 AM, said:

Wrong! There are no costs to respec your skill tree. Even the opposite, you can have more than 91 nodes open and change them around accordingly, for example if you change from a laser build to a dakka build or mixed build. What costs do you think are there.....?

How can people honestly not understand the costs involved.

You buy a mech, you play it a bunch and unlock 91 skill nodes. This costs you 5.46 million c-bills and 72,800 XP.

Now you want to change your build and your spec. Let's say you only want to change 20 nodes from ones you already had to new ones. This will cost you an additional 1.2 million c-bills and 16,000 XP.

Now you don't like your new build and spec so you want to go back to exactly what you already had. Even though you already fully paid for those 20 nodes you are re-acquiring, this will still cost you 8000 XP.

That is not free! It will cost you XP and often c-bills every time you want to change your skill tree.

Why anyone is cool with that is beyond me.

Simple solution: skill POINTS cost to unlock, skill NODES are free. In this way each mech has a one time cost of 5.46 million (or whatever the new lower amount the are considering) c-bills and 72,800 XP, and once that is paid you can truly, freely respec at will.

[ForceUser]

Well actually the costs is down to 4mill now for a full spec.

Also, what are you going to do with the XP you get from playing the mech once mastered?

I mean you are going to play the mech right?

[soapyfrog]

Phoolan Devi, on 11 March 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

The new system actually makes it more fun, since you do not have to restrain to basic skills because you have to grind your second mech.....and then your third. You now can fully master a mech, if you want to and by the time that is done, one definitely has enough money to spend on a new mech with full equipment to go because, to be honest, those 60k c-bills are a joke!

It is not a joke at all for the free to play new player.

Average earnings per match for a non-premium player is no more than 90,000 c-bills (it is probably less than this tbh) and 800 xp. That means in the 91 matches required to fully unlock and pay for the skill tree, the non-premium average player will have 2.73 million c-bills, assuming they did not modify their mech from stock.

Now a NEW player at least will have the cadet bonus to get them going, but once that is spent the above is what they face. So you can see how sensitive the average player is going to be to those skill tree costs.

PGI fortunately realizes this which is why they have said they are lowering the prices to 45,000 or less per node, but this still does not allow the average non-premium player to afford much after their 91 matches; and still god forbid they make mistakes with their skill tree and need to change it, well it will cost them still more.

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Also, what are you going to do with the XP you get from playing the mech once mastered?

I mean you are going to play the mech right?

Firstly I think that XP is basically irrelevant once you have mastered a mech and that is as it should be (no other games in a similar format to MWO worry about it, because who cares if you accumulate extra XP after mastery?). Secondly there is already an XP sink in the form of GXP conversion (which they could easily make available for c-bills if they really needed another c-bill sink).

Lastly yes I play my mechs but no I don't want to wait 5-10 matches to finish a major respec. No I don't want to be constrained from trying out new builds experimentally on mechs I don't play very much.

Respec costs are a tax on experimentation and a barrier to an important fun part of the game, and XP is the worst tax because it wastes my real life time.

[ForceUser]

If you respec a mech and not play it, what was the point of respecing it?

[Trev Firestorm]

Dogstar, on 07 March 2017 - 05:21 AM, said:

@Lemming - you're okay but as I've stated before not everyone else is. Personally I've got enough modules to get back maybe 20 million c-bills but I've got 111 mechs, almost all of which I use

Basically the same situation, 111 mechs and 88mil refund (just checked) and zero cbill balance (changing builds gets expensive fast when you change engines). At least 60 of those mechs are currently mastered and most of the rest are elited. That leaves me with only 15 mechs fully mastered on the new system or 30 mechs at the 50% mark that people are claiming is equivalent to current mastery... This is just stupid, ditch the moronic cbill cost or attach it only to nodes equivalent to current modules, or let historic xp translate directly to sp skipping the cbill tax.

[Phoolan Devi]

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

How can people honestly not understand the costs involved.

I do...and so that you do as well, let me explain it to you!

Quote

You buy a mech, you play it a bunch and unlock 91 skill nodes. This costs you 5.46 million c-bills and 72,800 XP.

So far, so good!

Quote

Now you want to change your build and your spec. Let's say you only want to change 20 nodes from ones you already had to new ones. This will cost you an additional 1.2 million c-bills and 16,000 XP.

True!

Quote

Now you don't like your new build and spec so you want to go back to exactly what you already had. Even though you already fully paid for those 20 nodes you are re-acquiring, this will still cost you 8000 XP.

...and here you are wrong! The new old nodes only cost 400xp if you, as you respeced the first time, decided to get a refund in xp. If you did not do so, the old node, which you had previously opened up, is still there. It is up to you, if you want a refund....and, by the way, if you get the refund, how can it cost something?

Quote

That is not free! It will cost you XP and often c-bills every time you want to change your skill tree.

Repeating it, won't make it true. If you want to respec, you have two choiced! Either leave the node available or get a refund of your exp (besides, as far as I remember, you get the full xp refunded and when you spec it again, then it only costs 400xp.

Quote

Why anyone is cool with that is beyond me.

If it were like you said, I wouldn't be cool with it, but since it isn't........

Quote

Simple solution: skill POINTS cost to unlock, skill NODES are free. In this way each mech has a one time cost of 5.46 million (or whatever the new lower amount the are considering) c-bills and 72,800 XP, and once that is paid you can truly, freely respec at will.

Well, it would be a solution....but for what problem.....ok, the c-bills are a major problem^^

[soapyfrog]

Phoolan Devi, on 11 March 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

...and here you are wrong! The new old nodes only cost 400xp if you, as you respeced the first time, decided to get a refund in xp. If you did not do so, the old node, which you had previously opened up, is still there. It is up to you, if you want a refund....and, by the way, if you get the refund, how can it cost something?

Uh there is no xp refund. What are you even talking about.

Nodes you previously unlocked cost 400 xp to reacquire if you drop them and want to go back to them. There is no refund of xp at any point.

Simply put there are costs to respeccing. Either c-bills and XP for new nodes, or XP for nodes you had previously unlocked.

[Phoolan Devi]

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

Uh there is no xp refund. What are you even talking about.

Nodes you previously unlocked cost 400 xp to reacquire if you drop them and want to go back to them. There is no refund of xp at any point.

Simply put there are costs to respeccing. Either c-bills and XP for new nodes, or XP for nodes you had previously unlocked.

Errm, sorry, but were you on the PTS at all?

In the first version, you got a refund of the invested exp and you had to invest the same exp if you wanted that deleted node again.

In the last version they made it optional. You can decide if you want the exp back or not. If you go for the refund, the next time you want to open up the node, it costs you only half, if you didn't go for the refund, you just open the node again!

You seem not to understand!

Edited by Phoolan Devi, 11 March 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[soapyfrog]

There was no refund.

https://mwomercs.com...tree-pts-update

Relevant bit:

Quote

There is no longer any C-Bill, MC, or Experience cost for removing a Skill Node once you’ve unlocked it. Removing a Skill Node you’ve already unlocked (for the individual ‘Mech whose Skill Tree you are working with) has no cost associated with it whatsoever. In light of the above change, removing a Skill Node you've already unlocked will no longer return the XP spent to acquire it. However, that brings us to the next change.

If you wish to re-acquire a Skill Node you previously removed (from the individual ‘Mech whose Skill Tree you are working with) you will not be required to repurchase that Skill Node at the initial purchase cost. Re-acquiring Nodes you previously purchased at full cost will only require 400 XP.

Clear enough for you?

[QuePan]

i keep seeing people state that this system is better for a new player , taking out the rule of three take is good for the new player , but the costs for skilling in the new tree dont. right now a new player can grind out a mech make his CBills skill it and lets say for this first mech buys modules , decides to buy another mech (pack or cbill ) now he does not really have the cbills to outfitt that mech with another set of modules , but while leveling that mech uses some or all of those from the other mech they get added performance from this .which helps him progress to earn more and buy additional mods or gear
in the new system while the costs is less for one mech but instead of sharing say a 6mill cost between 3 or so mechs hes leveling , he has to spend 4.5mill per mech instead? how is that better for the new player ?? its not ,while the overall single mech cost is cheaper , across multiple its more expensive for that player to level the stable and that player will make less in most case due to mech under performance. while with a mod swap they get slightly better performance with a better chance to make more cbills per match .
you want the progress to feel like progress and you dont want new players to feel clubbed to death

[ForceUser]

He'd need to unlock those modules first. Also Mechbays.

[Phoolan Devi]

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

There was no refund.

https://mwomercs.com...tree-pts-update

Relevant bit:



Clear enough for you?

Touchè, sir. Honestly, that last change to it (since I remember it as being as I said) is absolutely stupid and I do not understand why they changed it that way. Maybe because all that whiners who didn't want to pay c-bills for respeccing? Well, thanx!