91 replies to this topic

[Wolf McNish]

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

It is not a joke at all for the free to play new player.

Average earnings per match for a non-premium player is no more than 90,000 c-bills (it is probably less than this tbh) and 800 xp. That means in the 91 matches required to fully unlock and pay for the skill tree, the non-premium average player will have 2.73 million c-bills, assuming they did not modify their mech from stock.

For the most part this is a good post, but I wonder why everybody just uses QP as a reference for getting money, without taking into account that a new player, after gaining some experience might have a talk with a unit and tag along for a Faction play drop, which means significantly increased earnings, as pointed out in my earlier posts.
200 (bad loss) 700k good win.
Also sometimes the more experienced players even in a unit might not have premo time activated, as they might be short on real life money.

So your metric only accounts for QP and therefore the number of games required looks more dramatic.

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Now a NEW player at least will have the cadet bonus to get them going, but once that is spent the above is what they face. So you can see how sensitive the average player is going to be to those skill tree costs.

PGI fortunately realizes this which is why they have said they are lowering the prices to 45,000 or less per node, but this still does not allow the average non-premium player to afford much after their 91 matches; and still god forbid they make mistakes with their skill tree and need to change it, well it will cost them still more.

Again the problem is that your argument is based on a metric that fails to account for them going for FP.

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Firstly I think that XP is basically irrelevant once you have mastered a mech and that is as it should be (no other games in a similar format to MWO worry about it, because who cares if you accumulate extra XP after mastery?). Secondly there is already an XP sink in the form of GXP conversion (which they could easily make available for c-bills if they really needed another c-bill sink).

That Idea of gxp conversion for C-bills I support, but I highly doubt that PGI is willing to give up a real life cash cow.
It would make life easier for F2P Players, but then from a business perspective PGI does not want to have F2P Players, as they cost money, but generate none.
Which is also why any F2P game is grindy, because the frustration of the grind is what sells premium time.
Though compared to some other games it's not as bad in MWO and the gameplay is much fairer to F2P players and less frustrating.
No unlock Mech a to get Mech b, no Mech tiers and no gold ammo.

So while I would totally like this idea, I doubt it will happen.

soapyfrog, on 11 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Lastly yes I play my mechs but no I don't want to wait 5-10 matches to finish a major respec. No I don't want to be constrained from trying out new builds experimentally on mechs I don't play very much.

Respec costs are a tax on experimentation and a barrier to an important fun part of the game, and XP is the worst tax because it wastes my real life time.

At the moment the problem is actually having the C-bills, as and the system disincentivizes you from playing 3 mechs, unless you can afford 3 of them at the same time, which is also a problem with the mech bay space.
The key Problem with the old system is the rule of 3, and that it's the rule of 3 for every mech, not for one mech in that weight class.
And the fact that modules are just for one specific weapon, so if you have 2 SRM-6 and 1 SRM-4 you can only get a module that helps one of these weapon systems, while in the new system it affects all of that type.
Also certain modules, like weapon "cooldown" on hot weapons like the ERPPC, are pretty useless.
As for the Gauss Rifle, we don't need an extend charge timer, but rather a reduce charging time skill.

But you can still run experiment with mech builds in the new system, if you kept out of the firepower/weapon skill trees in the early bit of owning a mech, until you've settled on a config.

As for the no refund on changing a skill node, well I think that is a dumb decision.

[soapyfrog]

I am not arguing in favour of the old system, except inasmuch as I would prefer the status quo to a future system where I have to rebuy skill nodes every time I respec, and also which will more than bankrupt me by overcharging for skill nodes.

I don't object to the skill tree as a replacement for the current rule of 3 + modules, even if I don't think it's a great skill tree. For me it is really a cost issue... if I am put behind an insurmountable grindwall and also forced to pay to respec it kills my desire to throw money at PGI for new mechs (or anything really), and does also reduce my desire to play, even though I love this game very much.

Regarding faction play, the money:time ratio is not significantly different from quick play, especially new players who are rocking a trial deck and not very experienced are not likely to make very much money.

[Mech Nuggets]

I don't play very often, I don't spend much money on this game.
I only play Clan Mechs and I own 11 of them right now, I also have the NCIX Centurion so my Mechbays are at max atm. I got some in events and I bought a basic Linebacker pack.
I have about 7 or 8 Modules I think.
The new Skill-Tree will be very good to me, as Clan Omni Mechs are basically all the same, you find one working loadout and play that three times, but yet you are forced to "grind" through two more. I can't wait for this atrocity to finally stop.
I just recently bought a Warhawk, switched some Pods and found a working loadout. two more of these suckers will cost me what? 28.000.000 C-Bills I guess. Now that doesn't include the modules I want for the one I want to play, so until I can have my fully mastered Warhawk ready for Battle I will have to spend an additional 36.000.000 C-Bills (incl. Modules). Now other than buying the modules I have to save to buy the other chassis, just to build the exact same build again and again and later to sell them at a loss.
Thank goodness the new system is coming soon. I will only have to pay 4.500.000 C-Bills on top of the base price of a mech. that's 31.500.000 C-Bills worth of grind I will be saving!!!!

[soapyfrog]

I wonder how you would feel if you faced a 700 million c-bill grind (or only 300 million if they reduce prices to 45k per node!)

If they lowered prices to a reasonable amount, and eliminated respec costs, you would save even more money and I would not be bankrupted and driven out of the game. It's like.... win-win.

[50 50]

You are not seriously going to respec an entire tree every time you change your mind. That's just crazy talk.
At most you might clear out one aspect to shift it to something else, but even then, that would likely be a once off change.
Why would you keep doing it? That's just crazy talk.
This is where having the multiple variants of a single mech will give you a chance to setup different roles. They might have different hardpoints but that's just one tree that you will likely never change or perhaps never invest in. So you setup one mech to be really tanky and act as your spearhead, try another one with massive sensor enhancements so it's more of a command mech and another with all the consumables so it's got great support utility.
You'll probably know right at the start which mechs you want to fill which roles, it may be that some variants you want to set them all up the same way.
But to fully skill up one single mech, then decide for the next match you want to skill it up completely differently. Crazy talk!

[soapyfrog]

50 50, on 13 March 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

You are not seriously going to respec an entire tree every time you change your mind. That's just crazy talk.
At most you might clear out one aspect to shift it to something else, but even then, that would likely be a once off change.
Why would you keep doing it? That's just crazy talk.

And the point of penalizing people for playing the game differently from you is.....???

You lose nothing if respecs are free. All that happens is that people that like to respec a lot are not punished.

[Danjo San]

Werent respecs free of charge and only required 400xp to respec?

[soapyfrog]

Danjo San, on 14 March 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

Werent respecs free of charge and only required 400xp to respec?

400xp to go back to a node you already unlocked. Full price to get a new node.

Both have a cost, so respec is never free of charge.

[Trev Firestorm]

Wolf McNish, on 13 March 2017 - 12:59 PM, said:

For the most part this is a good post, but I wonder why everybody just uses QP as a reference for getting money, without taking into account that a new player, after gaining some experience might have a talk with a unit and tag along for a Faction play drop, which means significantly increased earnings, as pointed out in my earlier posts.
200 (bad loss) 700k good win.
Also sometimes the more experienced players even in a unit might not have premo time activated, as they might be short on real life money.

Time/efficiency is why, QP games run much faster so the earning output is overall higher. The biggest holdup is the MM and those losses especially hurt when you spend 3x (or longer due to MM) the time in a match to only get 2x the earnings vs a QP.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 14 March 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Thankfully PGI listened to us.My main 2 gripes about the economy were addressed in the new Skill tree update today. Thank you all for your input.

[Wolf McNish]

Trev Firestorm, on 14 March 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Time/efficiency is why, QP games run much faster so the earning output is overall higher. The biggest holdup is the MM and those losses especially hurt when you spend 3x (or longer due to MM) the time in a match to only get 2x the earnings vs a QP.

Not for everyone, for me for example FP is much more effective, as my unit mainly runs FP, so in FP I generally get the advantage of having a good team.
So without Premium I got 200-700k c-bills per match and with Premium I have broken the 1 Million in really good matches.
It all depends if you can go with a good team or not, and most units would really prefer you tag along with them instead of just pugging it out.

I got into the unit by doing just that, tagging along with them, well they put out the call to join them on their TS, so in I went, and after a week or so I was asked if I would like to join.

Might also be that I just prefer the gameplay, even if some of the enemies are harder.

[Trev Firestorm]

Wolf McNish, on 14 March 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not for everyone, for me for example FP is much more effective, as my unit mainly runs FP, so in FP I generally get the advantage of having a good team.
So without Premium I got 200-700k c-bills per match and with Premium I have broken the 1 Million in really good matches.
It all depends if you can go with a good team or not, and most units would really prefer you tag along with them instead of just pugging it out.

I got into the unit by doing just that, tagging along with them, well they put out the call to join them on their TS, so in I went, and after a week or so I was asked if I would like to join.

Might also be that I just prefer the gameplay, even if some of the enemies are harder.

Its been a while since I've gone into FP but last time the wait time between matches was what killed the efficiency no matter the group size, maybe its better now? Everything I've heard is its still fairly dead.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 14 March 2017 - 07:47 PM.