17 replies to this topic

[Rizn Nuke]

In this thread I would like to summarize a number of financial changes to the skill tree (ST). These changes were discussed and adjusted in several threads before and are still open to feedback (I will change this post accordingly)

These changes only cover the financial aspect of the skill tree and only the C-Bill costs. The current XP price (800XP per SP) is accaptable.

Goals (both PGI's and the player's)

Spoiler

• Rewarding for new players
  
• Investment for advanced players
  
• Fair transition between current system and ST
  
• Fair C-Bill sink (not bankrupting players)
  
• Incentive instead of obligation for spending more on duplicate mechs (replacement for rule-of-3)

Leveling your mech (SP costs)

Spoiler

I propose a linear growth to the costs of each skill point you wish to unlock. With the current 91 SP this could, for example, be 1000 for every level, starting at 1000 for the first SP, 2000 for the second etc. This would add up to 4,186,000 (~ same total suggested at podcast).

Advantages:

• Rewarding for new players: Only 500,000 needed to reach 30 SP instead of 1,350,000 (current suggestion at 45,000 per SP)
  
• Investment for advanced players: Actual decisionmaking for high-level mechs (Do I want to invest another 80,000 to unlock my 80th SP or do I want to use it for something else?)
  
• Fair transition between current system and ST: Players with no or few modules can use their limited C-Bills after the refund more effectively while players with many modules will be able to better optimize their mechs without making the imbalance too big.

Respeccing your mech (refund costs)

Spoiler

This one is a bit more difficult and definitely open for discussion:
Deactivating a node should refund you 75% of what was needed to activate the node (C-Bills and XP).
This means at early levels, it is quite cheap to refund nodes and becomes progressively more expensive the more you have leveled your mech. After refunding the node you have to pay the full price again to apply it somewhere else. (-> costs for a fully mastered mech to respec 10 points: 216,250 and 2000 XP)

Advantages:

• Fair C-Bill sink (not bankrupting players): Players, unsure what to do with their mech (e.g. beginners) can easily reassign SP early on without being heavily fined for their previous choices. A mastered mech will require a bit more to respec, however still less than in the current system (up to 22,750 on level 91 instead of 45,000 on every level)

Reasons to own multiples of a chassis

Spoiler

I want players to actually want to own several mechs of a chassis instead of being force to (current rule-of-3)
I propose that owning several mechs of the same chassis should reduce all SP costs (C-Bills and XP) for every mech of this chassis. This could either be a flat discount on all nodes or percentage based (with or without deminishing returns)

Advantages:

• Incentive instead of obligation for spending more on duplicate mechs
  
• Investment for advanced players: advanced players can opt to have the same mech chassis several times in order to allow for cheaper switching between different loadouts. This should be seen as an advantage, one that currently does not exist and should not result in higher base-prices.
  
• Fair C-Bill sink

As stated before, all of these topics and numbers are of course open for discussion. If you have a better idea to replace one (or all) of these ideas (which has happened before) I will try to update this post accordingly.

Edit: Updated values based on Russ' values from the podcast

Edited by Rizn Nuke, 14 March 2017 - 05:32 AM.

[Rizn Nuke]

I have made some updates already:

• The Poll has been updated
  
• The respeccing has been updated (75% refund instead of 50%)
  
• The SP costs have been updated (minor change)

[Kuaron]

Yes/Yes/No/Almost

I think we can leave respec as it is on PTS2, even with increasing cost for first-buy of a skill active. There is no problem with that.
You’ll want to respec mainly your weapon skills anyway, them mostly being the last and most expensive of the nodes you buy. You wouldn’t be happy if their respec cost would increase proportionally to their first-buy cost.
Also. as a matter of taste, I like what the PTS2 did anyway.

For multiple chassis the goal is a right one but making a difference between skilling one Mech first and buying other variants later, and buying all at the same time, would be bad design.
Instead, you should only give a discount on skills you already opened on any one Mech of the same chassis. This way there is always a first time for every skill of a chassis and a discount for the subsequent ones.

[Rizn Nuke]

Kuaron, on 06 March 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

Yes/Yes/No/Almost

I think we can leave respec as it is on PTS2, even with increasing cost for first-buy of a skill active. There is no problem with that.
You’ll want to respec mainly your weapon skills anyway, them mostly being the last and most expensive of the nodes you buy. You wouldn’t be happy if their respec cost would increase proportionally to their first-buy cost.
Also. as a matter of taste, I like what the PTS2 did anyway.

For multiple chassis the goal is a right one but making a difference between skilling one Mech first and buying other variants later, and buying all at the same time, would be bad design.
Instead, you should only give a discount on skills you already opened on any one Mech of the same chassis. This way there is always a first time for every skill of a chassis and a discount for the subsequent ones.

Oooohh. I like your ideas. I'll definitely think about those . Thanks for the feedback.

About the respec. What I don't like about the PTS2 model is that the first time you want to experiment (I suppose mostly with weapons as you said) you basically have to pay the full price.

Edited by Rizn Nuke, 06 March 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[Skribs]

Keeo C Bills out of leveling entirely.

[kf envy]

the Cbill cost for the skills just need to be removed. there is no need for it to cost Cbills other then to try to suck more money out of people buying Ptime or Cbills to get there elite mechs back to ware they were at.

my self I'm just going to ignore the skill tree as long as there Cbills needed for it.

[Rizn Nuke]

Yes most of us would be happy if C-Bills costs for skills didn't happen. But all signs point to the opposite. So why not try and find a system that MIGHT be enjoyable for us while still satisfying PGI.

Edited by Rizn Nuke, 06 March 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Appuagab]

If every mech is leveled completely separately, the total price of mastering should be lowered, no rearrangement of node prices would help. If we stay at 5.4kk per mastered mech then unlocks should be per chassis which also could help with multiple variant leveling. But perfectly they should disappear for every node which doesn't add any unique gameplay features (like seismic sensor). Respec and reunlock prices should be gone. Totally.

[Rizn Nuke]

Appuagab, on 06 March 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

If every mech is leveled completely separately, the total price of mastering should be lowered, no rearrangement of node prices would help. If we stay at 5.4kk per mastered mech then unlocks should be per chassis which also could help with multiple variant leveling. But perfectly they should disappear for every node which doesn't add any unique gameplay features (like seismic sensor). Respec and reunlock prices should be gone. Totally.

Yes I too would welcome if respec and reunlocking was free but I simply don't see it happening. But the fact that so many people are demanding it should hopefully give PGI something to think about, unless they want to alienate a big chunk of their playerbase.

[FunkyT]

I personally don't see what's wrong with the new skill system costing money.

Yes, the old skill system was completely free and only took EXP. But you still had to pay for the modules, if you wanted to get the most out of your build.
Radar Deprivation alone costs 6,000,000 C-Bills and is more expensive than mastering your mech entirely on PTS2. And Radar Derp gets pretty much mandatory later on.
So Instead of just getting Radar Derp right now, on PTS2 you pay less and get more out of it. I really don't see the problem.

Yes, I also know that beforehand you could just buy Radar Derp once and then push it around all your mechs whenever you want to play them. Kinda cumbersome, but cost efficient.

Plus, nobody forces you to master every single mech you own. You'll probably want to master your favourites, sure. But those you just occasionally take out for a spin? You can just get some of each tree. A little defense, a little operations, a little mobility, and so on. You can probably squeeze quite a lot out of 45 SP or even less, giving you some boosted survivability and other nice features for around 2,700,00 imaginary spacebucks.

I can see that this will probably get quite expensive for people who own a lot of mechs and skilling through several of them will likely take away the funds that would otherwise go into buying more mechs. At the same time, those with a lot of mechs will likely also get the biggest refund once the system hits live. That goes into compensating the intial costs quite a bit I think.

While I cannot see why you would completely scratch the C-Bill costs for the system, effectively giving you all the bonuses for free that would probably take 9 - 12 million Bills before, I would also kinda like them to bump down the costs a little more. While you get a lot more for a lot less when just looking at very few mechs, they should maybe take the previous cost efficiency of moving around modules into consideration for those with a lot of mechs.

Quick wierd thought:
How about rewarding players, that go all the way to mastering their mechs? What about a maybe 5 - 10% C-Bill boost for mastered mechs? Or some other system to reward you for dumping your money into the skilltree instead of mechs?
Dunno, just tossing around ideas at this point.

Edited by FunkyT, 07 March 2017 - 08:06 AM.

[Skribs]

CBills should not be part of the leveling process.

If you're stacked on CBills congrats, you can swap uogrades whenever you want.

[R Valentine]

FunkyT, on 07 March 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

I personally don't see what's wrong with the new skill system costing money.

Yes, the old skill system was completely free and only took EXP. But you still had to pay for the modules, if you wanted to get the most out of your build.
Radar Deprivation alone costs 6,000,000 C-Bills and is more expensive than mastering your mech entirely on PTS2. And Radar Derp gets pretty much mandatory later on.
So Instead of just getting Radar Derp right now, on PTS2 you pay less and get more out of it. I really don't see the problem.

Yes, I also know that beforehand you could just buy Radar Derp once and then push it around all your mechs whenever you want to play them. Kinda cumbersome, but cost efficient.

Plus, nobody forces you to master every single mech you own. You'll probably want to master your favourites, sure. But those you just occasionally take out for a spin? You can just get some of each tree. A little defense, a little operations, a little mobility, and so on. You can probably squeeze quite a lot out of 45 SP or even less, giving you some boosted survivability and other nice features for around 2,700,00 imaginary spacebucks.

I can see that this will probably get quite expensive for people who own a lot of mechs and skilling through several of them will likely take away the funds that would otherwise go into buying more mechs. At the same time, those with a lot of mechs will likely also get the biggest refund once the system hits live. That goes into compensating the intial costs quite a bit I think.

While I cannot see why you would completely scratch the C-Bill costs for the system, effectively giving you all the bonuses for free that would probably take 9 - 12 million Bills before, I would also kinda like them to bump down the costs a little more. While you get a lot more for a lot less when just looking at very few mechs, they should maybe take the previous cost efficiency of moving around modules into consideration for those with a lot of mechs.

Quick wierd thought:
How about rewarding players, that go all the way to mastering their mechs? What about a maybe 5 - 10% C-Bill boost for mastered mechs? Or some other system to reward you for dumping your money into the skilltree instead of mechs?
Dunno, just tossing around ideas at this point.

Modules can be transferred between mechs. That alone destroys your entire argument. Skills on the current PTS can not. So unless every mech you own has its own set of modules, you are still screwed 6 ways from Sunday.

[Almond Brown]

Skribs, on 07 March 2017 - 08:15 AM, said:

CBills should not be part of the leveling process.

If you're stacked on CBills congrats, you can swap upgrades whenever you want.

So we can be assured of your support for NOT bringing back any form of R&R system for MWO then as well? Perfect! Thanks for your support.

[Rizn Nuke]

Updated all numbers to the values given by Russ in the latest NGNG podcast. Please keep discussing.

[Skribs]

Almond Brown, on 07 March 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

So we can be assured of your support for NOT bringing back any form of R&R system for MWO then as well? Perfect! Thanks for your support.

I'm not sure what R&R has to do with my post, but yes. If you're going to have 2 different currencies, let them do 2 different things.

[soapyfrog]

Skill points should cost (if they must). Skill nodes should be free.

this way, respecs are free and future balance changes will not require big expenditures by players to unlock a bunch of new nodes that are suddenly important.

You pay for your 91 skill points and then you are done and you can play with your mech without being constantly taxed every time you want to change your build or there is a balance pass.

[Rizn Nuke]

soapyfrog, on 13 March 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Skill points should cost (if they must). Skill nodes should be free.

this way, respecs are free and future balance changes will not require big expenditures by players to unlock a bunch of new nodes that are suddenly important.

You pay for your 91 skill points and then you are done and you can play with your mech without being constantly taxed every time you want to change your build or there is a balance pass.

My thoughts exactly. I made a thread about this some time ago, too. The reason I am now submitting another idea is because PGI seems to be hellbent on having respecs cost something. IMO respecs should, if at all, only cost a small amount of XP (maybe like 200)

[soapyfrog]

And I think they should never cost xp. There is nothing worse you can do than to rob me of time and progress.