188 replies to this topic

[West Santin]

Snazzy Dragon, on 07 March 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

By all means, give me an IS medium mech that can mount 5 large pulse lasers, 30 double heatsinks, and have an awesome amount of armor and structure, in addition to excellent agility and high mounts

Oh, wait.

No LLs but I've a lot of fun with the GRF-2N 4 SRM6+Artemis 5 JJs goin 95 kph.

[Tatula]

Assaults having long range weapons (LRMs, erLLas, PPCs, GRs, AC2s, etc.) is not an excuse to hang back 500M from the rest of the team trying to shoot enemies who are 1000M away. All that really does is to provide a juicy target for enemy lights. You have basically isolated yourself from the rest of the team. You might do some damage if the enemy team ignores you, but being the last to die is not really an accomplishment. Having long range weapons only means you can start doing damage sooner as your team advances.

[The Errant]

Bush Hopper, on 06 March 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

The problem is that heavies are overall better. They have nearly the firepower of the assaults and nearly the agility of mediums. That means they usually can get out when they positioned badly or when a team leaves them behind - assault on the other hand are screwed. Therefore the heavy queue is nearly always the top queue

Heavies sit in the sweet spot of the relationship between speed, heat, and firepower (engine tonnage and free slots play into this). They can hit 75+ with enough free tonnage to put up a 45+ alpha, with slots left over for enough heat sinks to keep them cool.

Engine tonnage starts to spike when you get above STD 330/XL 340. If you take the bigger engines in assaults you have less room for firepower (assuming your assault even has the hardpoints to put on a lot of firepower, which isn't true for all of them). If you take the smaller engines you're too slow to keep up; if your team sticks with you then you lose the positioning battle, if they range ahead you're isolated, vulnerable and unable to support. If you pile on the weapons and take the big engines, due to either slot issues or weight issues you can't fit enough heat sinks to run cool, meaning you have to constantly heat manage which negates the point of bringing all that firepower to start with.

Mediums run into similar issues. Between speed, firepower and heat sinks you generally have the slots but not the tonnage for all three.

Most of the clan lights are just too slow to play like lights and can have the firepower to play like mediums...but neither the cooling if they take that firepower nor the armor, which is why you see ACH everywhere. Most of the IS lights are oversized and have to balance firepower with speed and heat, which is why you see LCT everywhere.

Heavies can strike the best balance between firepower, speed, and heat. Having the armor to tank a bit doesn't hurt either.

***

As others have said, there are several reasons you're seeing more long-range loadouts on assaults these days.

1) Bigger, more open maps
2) General timidity and lack of trust/coordination
3) Speed disparity/assaults left behind
EDIT: 4) Kodiak and Marauder IIC

The reason I think assaults get left behind so often, though, is because of positioning. Heavies and mediums are so fast that if you stay with a slow assault the enemy is going to win the positioning battle and get a good forward spot to harass/suppress you from as you're still trying to get to a good spot yourself (or trying to push on them). As somebody else said earlier it's pretty much 70+, 65 possibly if you hold W.

Edited by The Errant, 07 March 2017 - 03:42 PM.

[Lances107]

DrxAbstract, on 07 March 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

Armor 'sharing' is an often misunderstood and poorly employed concept usually used as a point of guilting people into taking damage, perpetuating questionable piloting behavior and promoting poor decision making habits. Teams lose for numerous reasons, armor 'sharing' being one of more egregious factors because of poor positioning and some people's willingness to throw themselves into the pit with the impression it'll make the difference when in reality it typically will not, creating a cascade loss of the team's overall Armor.

Armor in any other game would be Health, with the fundamental goal being exactly the same: Win by losing as little of it as possible. Armor is meant to be preserved just as much as weapons are meant to be fired. It's no coincidence long-range poke builds and stratagems proliferate drops, both competitive and pug alike... That doesn't mean you should never lose Armor, as taking damage is often unavoidable, but the pressure put on people to throw their Armor away "for the good of the team" around here is absolutely boggling given the considerable damage output in MWO.

Playing smarter and more efficiently with what you have should be paramount, which includes finding ways to take down enemies by expending as little Armor as possible, exercising thoughtfulness over careless action. This silly notion that your team is going to lose unless adequate sacrifices are made to the Armor God, and the subsequent shaming from it, needs to take a walk.

I do not believe you can compare armor to health in other games. Mainly because most of those games give people things like self heals or a healing class. In Mwo this is where its a whole different ball game. Once your down your down. No buts, no reses, no heals, and no nothing. You screwed up or your team screwed.

Armor sharing is important and this is why. Four assaults hanging in the rear LRMing the other guys, mean while the four heavies, and some medium/lights try to hold off three full lances. Anyone want to take a guess how that will end? The other thing LRMs gives people free damage, and they receive none. So naturally everyone goes for the LRMS. Thats just not mechwarrior...
Ive said it a few times, and I will keep on saying it. Reduce the range of LRMs to 500 meters, get rid of the minimal range to do damage. Lower the cost of tonage for LRMs. Suddenly all those players sitting in the rear with LRMs are going to have to learn to PLAY the game, and learn how to work WITH there team.

As for builds I use something, that some say can not work, but I enjoy it. To me it prepares me for any map and any situation. I run a tbr with one set of jump jets, LBX 10, SRM 6, and two clan ER ppcs. My point with this is, just because you have ranged weapons does not mean you should sit in the rear and let your team mates take all the heat. Also the optimal range cuts down on actual range a decent amount. Something else allot of players fail to take into account.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lances107, on 07 March 2017 - 01:20 PM, said:

Reduce the range of LRMs to 500 meters, get rid of the minimal range to do damage.

You might as well just reduce it to its standard range of 630m. Where PGI pulled 1000m range from is anyone's guess (my guess is MW4).

[Flak Kannon]

I'll pop into this thread having only read the first page. Ill go back and read the rest.


The main reason you win or loose is more often than not good or bad communication early.


I tend to lead via chat, not Voice Coms. Teams that understand what all are doing can better position themselves and support those that are doing a 'thing' whatever that thing is.

There isnt a single way to win each round. It takes some early communication and a kind of a Hive Mind mentality amongst the better players on any given team.


Assaults can do very well if they are Ranged build if the team supports that style of play. I have one player in mind acutally, he's running Highlanders currently with alot of LRM tubes. That player needs and benefits from spots. Help him, you win. Abandon him we usually loose.

Another couple players I can think of are lovers of the Kodiak and like to push. Thats style of play requires you to pull fire, as they push and crush.


It really isnt a one way proposition with assaults. They can play both ways with correct understanding. And early communication can clear that up really well.


Enjoi

[Clownwarlord]

What killed the brawling assault mech? Being able to shoot high damage pin point accurate alphas at greater range than 300 meters. Example a dual gauss dual erppc dire wolf, kodiak, or there of with dual gauss erpp or dual erpp gauss. The reason why is you get with dual gauss and dual erpp only heat off the erpps and to go with that heat is an alpha that is pin point of 60 damage.

So in the case of a true brawling assault of the DDC or there of with AC20, 3 SRM6s with Art, and 2 Medium Lasers you have a range of 270. So till you get to that optimum range that 60 damage is going to be hitting you and with max armor for front CT of 124 (that is zero rear armor). Guess what two alphas to the front CT and you have 4 armor left ... so yeah that is why brawling is dead.

In simpler words brawling assaults are dead because others find it easier to get kills at range, especially when your ranged alpha is going to be better than your spread built alpha of a brawler.

[-MAC-]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Disappearing are the days of the brawling assaults...the front liners, you know, the job they were assigned and created to do!!! (with a few exceptions). What I am seeing more and more are assaults created for the fire support role. You know the ones? the LRM 60 Kodiak?!?!? The ERLL/ Gauss Dire, etc. etc.

So here's what typically happens when 3 out of 4 members of Charlie lance are fire support and stand back hoping for targets....

YOU LOSE.

Mediums are suddenly forced to be front liners, a role they weren't designed for. Huge pressure on the remaining heavies (they better be good brawlers now, which often these days many aren't).

...the team falls apart one by one while the fire support assaults sit back with all their precious armor on the outskirts of the battle.

Ughh!!!!

Just the other day I watch a brilliantly adept player (*cough*) with his sole load-out 3ERLL on his Direwolf (!!!!!!!) sit back on the island and attempt to provide fire support while the rest of the team crumbled.

This is a terrible trend, imho. Out of role mechs, the disappearance of the brawling assaults...and now the way it is, everything else being equal, a good predictor of success or failure is the make up of Charlie lance.

:/

You are kidding right? Have you seen how most assaults come stock? Mechs seem to be designed with all ranges in mind and a lot of them are distance fighters.

Just learn to play all roles. Brawling will role back around soon enough.

[Ruar]

I play medium mechs and I can't count the number of times I ended up leading a push while our assaults sat back poking or lrming from behind a ridge.

Yes there is absolutely a time to sit back and engage at range. At some point though the assaults have to tighten their cooling vests and get into the fight. Sure that assault has more firepower than my medium, but I die a lot faster and I can be more effective moving around than the assault can. He distracts and takes fire while I'm focusing on weak points and positioning.

No, it's not easy to play an assault mech, but the absolute wrong answer is to sit back in a pure support role and never get the armor into the fight. Sure, there are times when your team will leave you behind, but there will be more times when the assault mech's push is the key to victory.

Most matches I lose is because the assaults never moved forward. They get support once they start to push but the key is they have to at least attempt to push. Push means staying engaged though and not backing out of the fight after the first volley. Bleed that armor, lose that torso. In the end you are keeping three other mechs alive which is a lot more firepower than what your one assault mech can put into the fight.

[bullyj]

I run a Stalker 5m a lot and I've found the best range for me is about 300m. I like being near the mediums Chain firing lrm5's, it takes the attention off of the mediums and at 300m lrms are harder to avoid.

[Fleeb the Mad]

People can complain about the assaults not pushing, but if we're being honest most of these bad assault anecdotes are problems with situational awareness. It happens in every facet of the game, except that an assault mech gets punished for it more than any other. There's simply no escape in an assault mech if you put yourself in a bad situation. Usually that mistake is fatal, which is why 'bad assaults' seem so prevalent.

More on that point, I think the average assault pilot is being conditioned to play it safe and stay in the back. An assault mech at the leading edge is often hung out to dry when teammates fall back in the face of an enemy push. Being further from the enemy is an obvious way to mitigate slow reaction time and cap the consequences of poking in a bad place, or against several enemies.

That isn't without its problems, but a good sniper will move to keep their guns on an enemy and isn't oblivious to being rushed by lights. A sniper with bad situational awareness generally won't pay for the mistake immediately, because the front half of the team is usually between them and the consequences. That might also contribute to people failing to recognize their mistakes, since they're still alive despite how doomed the team might be.

Now, assaults sitting in the back at long range isn't in itself wrong. If you look its honestly a natural progression to what most of them are best at with the current state of balance. There are several factors at play and they tend to all lean in the same direction.

First, in battletech and in MWO, you tend to trade weight for range. The hitting power of heavier weapons generally doesn't scale with tonnage. A large laser is quite inferior to five medium lasers in terms of damage. This is, strangely, also true for autocannons despite the fact the the progression is opposite that of energy weapons. That's due to boating, where having multiple smaller ACs can match the damage output of a single larger gun at greater range, at the cost of more tonnage. Convergence and salvo firing makes them effective at not spreading damage.

So, generally, a mech whose key advantage is payload is going to be biased towards equipping heavier weapons that are most optimal at longer range.

Second, speed is a triple-whammy. A slow mech that has to close the distance to use its weapons isn't shooting for much of the match. Being on the front line at short range makes withdrawing from a bad situation difficult and is inherently much riskier, and it has difficulty pursuing faster mechs that decide to break and run. Being more mobile is much more important to surviving and dealing damage than armour is.

Third, with the current tech level, critical and heat limits play more a part than tonnage limits. Generally brawler payloads can be carried by smaller, more mobile mechs. Smaller hitboxes, more difficulty in targeting a specific section and being able to better use cover.

Lastly, present map design tends to place open areas between teams without many means to approach under cover. It's most amenable to sniping. It's manageable when there are only a few snipers, but when team loadouts shift towards long range it's quite simply punishing trying to close.

All these things add up to a good incentive to equip long range if you've got the tonnage for it. If you've got range, it's in your best interest to stay there to reduce the amount of return fire. I personally don't like the long-range exchanges, but that's the way it is.

Edited by Fleeb the Mad, 07 March 2017 - 08:47 PM.

[visionGT4]

i think theres some confusion around the whole concept of first and second line in this game.. there no such thing. Once the opfos main body has been located theres only one line and thats the firing line.

If your not on the firing line complicating the opfors targeting decisions, sharing armour and shooting your guns - your not contributing.

In organised play where mech rotation is critical one may adopt a postion slightly behind the line to remain combat viable after having your armor stripped for the good of the team.

edit: spelling

Edited by visionGT4, 07 March 2017 - 09:47 PM.

[Coolant]

sorry, but unless you make a full on respawn mode I'm not gonna blindly lead a charge. I die and have to sit and watch the rest of the game...

make an unlimited respawn mode

[West Santin]

Coolant, on 07 March 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

sorry, but unless you make a full on respawn mode I'm not gonna blindly lead a charge. I die and have to sit and watch the rest of the game...

make an unlimited respawn mode

Having no respawn is one of the things I like most - you have to be more careful and your actions have concequences.
With respawn imho everyone would just run around and don't care if they die or not because they'll respawn anyway.

It is more punishing without respawn and maybe less friendly for new players but for me a core game mechanic.

[The Lobsters]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 March 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

You might as well just reduce it to its standard range of 630m. Where PGI pulled 1000m range from is anyone's guess (my guess is MW4).

+1

I play lrm mechs often, aggressively and with los. This change wouldn't affect my playstyle in the slightest. In fact, it would kill much of the lurm hate/too weak/too strong chat overnight.

Like, who seriously puts the lrm range module on their mechs?


In fact, pgi, pls scrap mrm's. Just nerf lrm range. 500m, 650m with module/squirks.



.

Edited by The Lobsters, 08 March 2017 - 12:50 AM.

[Lances107]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 07 March 2017 - 01:25 PM, said:

You might as well just reduce it to its standard range of 630m. Where PGI pulled 1000m range from is anyone's guess (my guess is MW4).

630 meters works for me. Its just too easy for these new people to slip into keep my *** safe, and fire missiles with 1000 meter range. At the same time, like I already have implied, you need to buff the things to if your going to reduce the range. Hence the thought on the getting rid of the minimal range for damage, and reducing there weight cost by some.

[The Lobsters]

Lances107, on 08 March 2017 - 01:02 AM, said:

630 meters works for me. Its just too easy for these new people to slip into keep my *** safe, and fire missiles with 1000 meter range. At the same time, like I already have implied, you need to buff the things to if your going to reduce the range. Hence the thought on the getting rid of the minimal range for damage, and reducing there weight cost by some.

Not sure about a buff, maybe drop to 100m. The thing is, is that with tag and artemis, both requiring line of sight, the effective damage from lrm's increases significantly. If the lurmtards are forced to fight within 500m, they are going to have line of sight whether they want it or not

[Clownwarlord]

You know I play a lot of solo cue. Over the years I have played every type of load out. The one load out people complain about the most myself included can be played and effective. The mech class is assault and the load out is lrm boat, but I will tell you something I don't mind people piloting them. I mind it when they pilot them incorrectly.

Here are some simple tips for piloting any lrm boat.

• Stay within 300 meters of your team mates, usually your team death balls but if you are 500 meters behind them then you will most likely get killed because of the most common tactic in MWO (Nascar).
  
• Make sure you bring plenty of lrms to fire, a lot of new players would bring a lrm mech but only have 500 lrms on it to fire off, or they might only bring 1 lrm 20 and think that is enough. No if you are bringing lrms bring as many launchers and as many lrm ammo to make it work.
  
• Second to last you don't always have to get your own locks, just keep in mind if your team isn't getting you locks then you will have to. Don't *^%&*^%& about your team without taking a peak yourself (maybe the other team has a gun line, maybe the other team is ecm heavy, or maybe there is just no one there to be spotted).
  
• Lastly, when you play an lrm boat yeah you can fire those missiles up to 1000 meters away, but you know what chances are they will all miss so better get closer for a shorter travel time (which means less time for the enemy to escape them).

But hey what do I know I have only been playing this game since March 2013. ... four years later and still playing it ...

[Escef]

Clownwarlord, on 08 March 2017 - 02:11 AM, said:

You know I play a lot of solo cue. Over the years I have played every type of load out. The one load out people complain about the most myself included can be played and effective. The mech class is assault and the load out is lrm boat, but I will tell you something I don't mind people piloting them. I mind it when they pilot them incorrectly.

Here are some simple tips for piloting any lrm boat.

• Stay within 300 meters of your team mates, usually your team death balls but if you are 500 meters behind them then you will most likely get killed because of the most common tactic in MWO (Nascar).
  
• Make sure you bring plenty of lrms to fire, a lot of new players would bring a lrm mech but only have 500 lrms on it to fire off, or they might only bring 1 lrm 20 and think that is enough. No if you are bringing lrms bring as many launchers and as many lrm ammo to make it work.
  
• Second to last you don't always have to get your own locks, just keep in mind if your team isn't getting you locks then you will have to. Don't *^%&*^%& about your team without taking a peak yourself (maybe the other team has a gun line, maybe the other team is ecm heavy, or maybe there is just no one there to be spotted).
  
• Lastly, when you play an lrm boat yeah you can fire those missiles up to 1000 meters away, but you know what chances are they will all miss so better get closer for a shorter travel time (which means less time for the enemy to escape them).

But hey what do I know I have only been playing this game since March 2013. ... four years later and still playing it ...

As a caveat on ammo, don't carry too much, either. If you're going to boat LRMs in an assault mech than you shouldn't be sacrificing armor and point defense, and at least don't cut your speed below average for your tonnage. If you drop point defense, trim armor, and drop your engine dangerously low to carry more ammo you are probably just wasting half your ammo (or more) on ineffective shots. I run 9 tons of ammo on an ALRM50 BLR-1S, and it's usually enough. Those games where I tap out the ammo don't bother me, because it means I've done decent damage already and can still engage with my quad medium lasers. (I've gotten plenty of kills off those lasers, point defense in an emergency and good late game finishers.)

[Snazzy Dragon]

West Santin, on 07 March 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

No LLs but I've a lot of fun with the GRF-2N 4 SRM6+Artemis 5 JJs goin 95 kph.

That's not much of a fire support mech though, is it?