188 replies to this topic

[West Santin]

Snazzy Dragon, on 08 March 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

That's not much of a fire support mech though, is it?

But a looooooot of fun

[Weeny Machine]

I do not even demand that assaults lead the charge. However, when the battle moved away from them and they are more than half a map away with partial LoS blocking stuff in between them and they still do not move...oh well, you know why you have lost.

The same goes for when you finally roll the enemy line back and instead of backing up the push, the assaults sit on their cozy hill/in their hiding place

And that is also the moment where you need the additional armour of the assaults for soakig and distrbuting damage. If you do not have that, the poor souls pushing are automaticall focused. And it is a difference if there are 3 targets to focus or 6 (just an example)

[Ruar]

After reading a lot of these responses I think we are using the wrong concepts for assaults.

It's not so much about being right up front in a fight, but it is about playing aggressively for the situation. A support assault can play aggressively even if they are slightly behind the rest of the team. As long as they are willing to use their armor wisely and be willing to take some hits they are doing their job. Just like a brawling mech who knows when to use cover and when to launch a push.

I think the big problem is new players go for assaults, don't know how to play aggressively, and end up sitting in the back because assaults are unforgiving once you make a push at the wrong time.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I think Assault playing more of a fire support role is more of an issue in solo queue.

You can't really rely on a team of random individuals for coordination and coordination is what an Assault needs as a brawler. It needs a team to push with it so that it doesn't get cut down with focus fire.

I think too often players expect an Assault to push first, but after many matches of Assaults pushing with no back-up or even Assaults just pushing by themselves without the team being ready (again, lack of coordination), it has led to a lot of quickly dying Assaults. Now in solo queue, people are going..."screw that front line brawler crap, I'm standing back and following the flow of the team".

The only time it seemed like an Assault brawler worked really well in solo queue is when the game was in it's infancy. No Clans (and more importantly Clan tech) and even low grade IS tech (like when there was only single heat sinks). Heck, even the 8v8 setup helped with less focus fire. At that time, TTK was much longer, and it allowed Assaults to stay in the fight a lot longer (even when the team didn't coordinate).

This issue is just one of those things that I don't think is going to change.

[Magnus Santini]

People always talk about the assaults needing to share their armor. From the assault pilot's perspective, the rest of the team needs to share their firepower. An assault mech has better ability to (briefly) endure focus fire, so he can lead the charge. That is about 6-10 seconds. After that, he is overheated from 2-3 alphas, he is being focused by a lance or more, and he is about to die. So, for the assault to live, within that time, as many of the team as possible have to (1) fire on the assault's target or at least on one of the mechs shooting him, which suppresses the incoming fire; (2) remain visible and exposed to keep firing rate up and intimidate and divert some of the incoming fire; and (3) ideally take up new defensible positions in a line with the assault's position or slightly ahead, to move the line up.

[Pika]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

The ERLL/ Gauss Dire, etc. etc.

The Direwolf always has been, and always will be a long range support unit who makes a push into an area it needs to control.
It can assist in a push, but it can't make one like the Kodiak can. Think of the wolf as a bunker with some legs on it.

Yet at the same time if you're not leaning on your capslock key, don't expect much in Pug Queue.

[panzer1b]

To anyone who says that sniping isnt dominant right now (and there arent more sniper maps then brawl maps), consider the fact that a sniper remains effective at every range from point blank to across the map. Take for example the super old and stale metabuild for the NGR with dual gauss and 1 PPC, it has ~5.3 sustained DPS, while the brawler timberwolf (with SRMs) gets around 9 DPS. Granted if they are at short range,m the winner is going to be the brawler, but if you consider the fact that even the "brawler" maps allow you to position in such a way as to force the brawler to close the distance and get hit a few times before they are in range, the so called lower DPS of the sniper is often offset by positioning and you get a good chance to kill or neuter the brawler before they close the gap provided their attack was actually anticipated and its not a full lance murderball. Basically sniper builds often enough have over half the DPS of a dedicated brawler, and they can actually use that DPS throughout the entire game regardless of range while brawlers are literally useless until they can close the gap. Short range map or long range map, snipers always have a presense in the battle, whereas brawlers are too situational, and for solo queue, it makes no sense to pick a playstyle that is only effective 50% of the time...

The desire to play sniper is further compounded in assaults by the lack of mobility, if you need to close the gap and the enemy can outrun you by holding down S, then your short range weapons arent going to be very effective, and 90% of the assasults that are capable of going fast enough to get into short range quickly, are completely redundant compared to a heavy which is lighter, somewhat faster, and can carry a very similar level of firepower and often match the alfa strike and short term DPS (not to mention if often tankier as its physically smaller and harder to isolate hitboxes on)...

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Beginning of match: Can't wait for the "herp-a-derps!" Watch Alpha and Bravo go! Dale Earnhardt Jr. takes the lead!

Salty post-crushing-defeat forum garbage: [sob-sniffle] "WHY ARE THE ASSAULTS IN THE REAR!?!?!"

[Weeny Machine]

panzer1b, on 08 March 2017 - 08:42 AM, said:

To anyone who says that sniping isnt dominant right now (and there arent more sniper maps then brawl maps), consider the fact that a sniper remains effective at every range from point blank to across the map.

Depends on the build. An ERLL sniper will get eaten alive by a brawly mech. Gauss/ERPPCs are a different story

Mister Glitchdragon, on 08 March 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

Beginning of match: Can't wait for the "herp-a-derps!" Watch Alpha and Bravo go! Dale Earnhardt Jr. takes the lead!

Salty post-crushing-defeat forum garbage: [sob-sniffle] "WHY ARE THE ASSAULTS IN THE REAR!?!?!"

Weird. I read more often "Assaults are left behind".

I play mostly light mechs. Guess what I do when I see a fat whale stranded far away from its group? Especially when it is a pro-Lurmer mwaahahaha

Edited by Bush Hopper, 08 March 2017 - 09:03 AM.

[panzer1b]

Bush Hopper, on 08 March 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Depends on the build. An ERLL sniper will get eaten alive by a brawly mech. Gauss/ERPPCs are a different story

Honestly, ERLLs are one of those weapons that id rate a bit above lurms in performance category. Outside of lower tiers and extremely niche builds that take advantage of quirks (mostly on the IS side here) ERLL sniping is kinda lousy right now. The burn times are atrocious, the weapons are neither heat or mass efficient, and they just dont do enough damage to compensate for their many weaknesses. Myself i only touch them when im bored of the usual playstyles (laser vomit, gauss+ppc, dakka, ect) or when i have ~4-5 tons left and 1-2 slots open on a mech (or when i need to get the most damage out of a single head hardpoint on a clanner and i cant fit a LPL and a ERML doesnt make sense for whatever reason).

The reason i didnt mention ERLLs and the fact that they are autodead to a brawler is the fact that very few mechs can even run ERLLs well compared to gauss+ppc or even AC sniping. Honestly i think ERLLs have been crap since i started playing, granted my T5 career they worked, but after i moved on nope...

Edited by panzer1b, 08 March 2017 - 10:12 AM.

[Koruthaiolos]

Redwo1f, on 06 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Just the other day I watch a brilliantly adept player (*cough*) with his sole load-out 3ERLL on his Direwolf (!!!!!!!) sit back on the island and attempt to provide fire support while the rest of the team crumbled.

The direWolf needs a speed buff to make it competitive again as a brawler... meanwhile, my warhawk LBX-20 / 3mpl / 3SMR-A build wrecks face as a brawler, if I survive long enough

[Felicitatem Parco]

My team tends to win when I bring 14-16 tons of ammo for my Assault Mech's weapons, or 30+ DHS. It's sure a waste to die early when you still have 10 tons of unspent ammo, so I play firesupport until ammo drops to a few tons, then charge in and use the rest. Easy recipie for 1000+ dmg matches with victory.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 08 March 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

panzer1b, on 08 March 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

ERLL sniping is kinda lousy right now. The burn times are atrocious, the weapons are neither heat or mass efficient, and they just dont do enough damage to compensate for their many weaknesses...

I've never understood laser sniping. I'm fine squaring off at range with an ERLL "sniper." You can always tell when they're not using a-zoom, since their beams hose down my entire mech. Even if they have a steady hand, a little twisting on my part diffuses their strike. Meanwhile, I'm going to work on that weak side torso with Gauss/PPC PPD...

I'm in T3, though. Maybe I'll see better ERLL play in higher tiers.

[Wildstreak]

Must be partly Solo vs other play.

I tried a few of those meta builds on Assaults, some do not work in Solo Queue. Prime example, 80 tonners, most meta builds are ranged snipers but in Solo Queue people complain if your Assault is even mid-range like 400-500m. Same with a Highlander.

Currently been using a Mauler-MX90 that is fine in most roles and a King Crab-000 that really needs backup if it engages 2+ enemies no matter what build it uses. The amount of times I cannot even get into the fight early because of all the allies who pick and camp spots is ridiculous. I actually have spent a full minute or more beginning of a match doing nothing but repositioning due to all the people who do not pay attention to where their own team is and block people a lot. This is easier to deal with in a Heavy or lighter with better speed.
I was trying to put some XP on Zeus for the new Tree but will not now due to LT weakness and expectations of them by the team.
Awesome, I have no trouble with.
Victor got sold because it was THAT bad in any role for many reasons.
Stalker is not a problem much though I do get blocked from shots by allies.
Have not run Executioners in a while but never had a problem with them either.

Certain Assaults just cannot do a lead for charges.

[Hyperlethal]

what do you expect? assaults are so heavily dependant on their team to do the job they are "meant for" a brawler assault is either food for lights cus left behind, gets watched as he pushes in alone by a team of S-key fondelers, gets his low mount weapons obstructed by idiots, recieve next to no recon from lights which they heavily rely on since a wrong turn is the last thing they will do in a match, or simply obliterated by LRM spam out of spawn thnx to one light with a narc and a terminal lack of AMS on the team. and the list goes on! if im queing in my an assault its prolly 1 in 10 matches where this BS isnt getting me killed early. seems to me that the smaller the mech the better these days. assaults are a joke and if you spent your mony on one and dont have a big premade to support you then you might as well just equip it with a lethal amount of lrms or gauss otherwise your just a walking DPS score for the other team.

[Weeny Machine]

Hyperlethal, on 08 March 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

what do you expect? assaults are so heavily dependant on their team to do the job they are "meant for" a brawler assault is either food for lights cus left behind, gets watched as he pushes in alone by a team of S-key fondelers, gets his low mount weapons obstructed by idiots, recieve next to no recon from lights which they heavily rely on since a wrong turn is the last thing they will do in a match, or simply obliterated by LRM spam out of spawn thnx to one light with a narc and a terminal lack of AMS on the team. and the list goes on! if im queing in my an assault its prolly 1 in 10 matches where this BS isnt getting me killed early. seems to me that the smaller the mech the better these days. assaults are a joke and if you spent your mony on one and dont have a big premade to support you then you might as well just equip it with a lethal amount of lrms or gauss otherwise your just a walking DPS score for the other team.

A hint: There is a reason why the heavy queue is loooooooooong (and the light queue so short).

And yes, sometimes lights have to step up and kick some balls when the heavies and assaults "are not so good" (too bad that happens not that often. Was a weird match hehe)

Edited by Bush Hopper, 08 March 2017 - 01:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 March 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Assaults are never meant to be front liners anyway. It is a common misconception that most new players perpetuate. Assaults typically carry more firepower than any other mech, and generally because of their size on top of that draw a lot of attention when pushing. So considering all that on a push it is actually better (even for brawling assaults like the Atlas) for them to be in the middle/back end of the pack because mediums and heavies generally can generally use their speed/agility to avoid/spread the first salvos whereas something like the Assault will most likely be stripped or dead fairly early.

Middle of the pack is where assaults thrive because they are the easiest to overwhelm without proper support and because they tend to stand out so it is best to have buddies to help mitigate them being focused down.

Yes and no. The Atlas D has mediocre firepower for a 100 tonner but soaked a stone cold stupid amount of damage. If you've got to push a firing line and someone is going to get focused, he goes first.

8v8 with KDK3s for assaults would absolutely keep assaults in the middle and ideally not push until you're at least 2 up or if you're desperate. Pug queue, group and especially FW play very differently. If you're in pug queue and you want a push you need to lead it because regardless of tier your teammates are likely cowards. Most will follow an assault but not a medium. Also most your teammates have LRMs and incredibly stupid build. Beyond which we're not just talking about if assaults lead the charge - we're talking about having all 3 assaults on your team being LRM and ERLL and raging because they didn't get Polar again.

Support assaults in pug queue are why people rage about having a lot of damage done but a win/loss of maybe 1.0. They are setting themselves and their team up for failure. There is no sharing of armor or focus fire so having your biggest, heaviest sources of ar.or hiding in the back just increases the focus the lighter mech take, increasing the odds of a roll.

When you start a match and you see your assaults waiting for other assaults to pass or circling to the back you know it's going to be a bad match. While it's true assaults don't always brawl and lead the push they still need to be sharing armor and playing with the team. That and LRM assaults as a given rule are one small step away from a 8 flamer stalker. "Support assault" im pug/group/FW just meams "bad player hoping the team carries them".

[Anjian]

I tried to get back and play assaults with my old style and also faced the same problem. They are getting obliterated too quickly.

This is not like the old days of 8x8, when I can sense which team is going to win by the number of assaults they have, and also by the tonnage these assaults have. This was back in the days when the Atlas was a true king of the battlefield.

This is playing like the land version of World of Warships when battleships are getting scared and playing sniper from the back, threatened by destroyers they can't see, and which can unleash a spread of torpedoes that will kill them in one strike.

For this reason, games look to me like skirmishes and peek and boo with smaller, faster mechs, with mechs behind playing fire support.

I myself just play as an LRM fire support these days with Archers, then finish off weakened targets with my medium lasers. I could generally work out 400 to 500 damage in many games. Its the style I have to play for now, but not the style I generally want to play.

Limiting alphas with ghost heat also limits assaults. Sometimes I wish I can be able to fire four large lasers at one time like I did before.

I prefer not to blame players for this, I prefer to blame how the overall game balancing direction led to this situation.

Edited by Anjian, 08 March 2017 - 04:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I tried to get back and play assaults with my old style and also faced the same problem. They are getting obliterated too quickly.

exactly. game still doesnt feel like battletech. in battletech assaults can tank. even mediums like hunchbacks can take a good deal of punishment in mechwarrior. but not in mwo.

again the problem is they went from 8v8 to 12v12 and did nothing to account for the extra focus fire. that combined with the fact serious issues like pinpoint aim and perfect convergence were never properly addressed.

its pretty stupid that super fast lights like the locust can evade tank longer than an atlas can tank. not that evasion tanking is particular effective either, but its more effective than armor tanking.

Edited by Khobai, 12 March 2017 - 04:49 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Here is something I gripe about assault mech pilots. You do lets say 800 to 1000 damage and only get 1 kill. How about you focus a little more and remove the enemy from the field.