392 replies to this topic

[Sereglach]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

That is a beyond terrible example. You'd need to include that Blizzard would be adding lvls 61-80 AND implemented a system where you'd need to spend a new currency to gain levels AND everyone was getting bumped back to level 1, but you could theoretically use your old experience IF you have enough of the new currency to spend your experience.

That is what is being done to us in MWO with what we know of the skill system implementation.

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

As I stated in a previous post . . . that completely guts PGI's monetization schema of the game, which requires people buying mech bays and mechs (or mech-packs). To suggest that's the "only" or "right" way to do things is absurd and completely counterintuitive to the game's structure.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, it's stupid and foolhardy; and it's also incredibly punishing to the majority player base that has many mechs in their rosters. As you can see throughout this thread the player base isn't happy about this system as per the last update and people aren't going to stand for it. PGI will be screwing themselves hard if they don't fix the core problems about the skill tree that have been pointed out by many already. Sadly, they probably won't have the opportunity to fix it after the fact because the player base will have already left.

[Cato Phoenix]

D V Devnull, on 09 March 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

In addition to my post above... One other thing just hit me... What happens to all those "Cool Shot 9", "Upgraded Cool Shot 6", and "Non-Upgraded Cool Shot 6" Consumables that players have? I mean, I see how the already-upgraded "Cool Shot 9 by 9" would just turn into "Cool Shot 18" in player inventories, but what about those non-upgraded editions? Have we another case of mental disconnect here?

~Mr. D. V. "One last query hitting me over the head..." Devnull

Yeah, I probably have 10-15 million in consumeables.

By rough estimate 170*40,000*2 = 13,600,000

I mean that's enough cash to skill out two mechs.

[Arkhangel]

@Warhippy: okay, for #1: they still stick to SOME lore, as a lot of those Heroes with named pilots are actually lore pilots, AND when possible, so were the builds.

and for #2: there's no "additional" grind. it's the same flipping grind it was, and if you've already actually USED a mech a lot, you won't even need the xp, just the cash, and that cash overall'll be cheaper than two modules were (that we're also getting refunded), let alone the four or five some people chucked on mechs.

[Sereglach]

Tordin, on 09 March 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

Lets see what they have changed before ringing the doomsday bells, shall we? There are still a chance pgi might screw this up you know, then you can vent all your anger and sa "told you so!"

It might not be the godly new system all could dream of but even in its infancy, its tons better than the mess of a system we have now.

First off, "in its infancy" means it's still being tested, which means that it is NOT ready for the live servers by any stretch of the imagination.

Secondly it's not just ringing doomsday bells, it's gaming precedent. If PGI releases the skill trees, as we last saw them (and with the few ambiguous "tweaks" of the OP), then the game won't survive for future iteration. It'll go the way of games like Star Wars Galaxies when it dropped a massive new grind on its player base . . . where they just walked away and the game died within a scant few months.

[Ryoken]

Sereglach, on 09 March 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

That is a beyond terrible example. You'd need to include that Blizzard would be adding lvls 61-80 AND implemented a system where you'd need to spend a new currency to gain levels AND everyone was getting bumped back to level 1, but you could theoretically use your old experience IF you have enough of the new currency to spend your experience.

That is what is being done to us in MWO with what we know of the skill system implementation.


As I stated in a previous post . . . that completely guts PGI's monetization schema of the game, which requires people buying mech bays and mechs (or mech-packs). To suggest that's the "only" or "right" way to do things is absurd and completely counterintuitive to the game's structure.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly, it's stupid and foolhardy; and it's also incredibly punishing to the majority player base that has many mechs in their rosters. As you can see throughout this thread the player base isn't happy about this system as per the last update and people aren't going to stand for it. PGI will be screwing themselves hard if they don't fix the core problems about the skill tree that have been pointed out by many already. Sadly, they probably won't have the opportunity to fix it after the fact because the player base will have already left.

Well I do disagree.

We do not have the numbers that the majority of players is satisfied/unsatisfied, this thread as well could be only a loud unhappy minority of players with a very special mindset to the game compared to the big satisfied silent majority. And even if it would be the majority of players may not always be the ones who know the game best. We just don't know.

To me the practical advantages of the new system for all players by far outweight the theoretical disadvantages that some less used mechs for a few players might be hypothetically useless.

As I said before I do even know a player waiting for the new skill tree to arrive to return to the game. So we will see if there really will be an exodus of players or maybe even more players will be drawn back into the game.

Until then - stand pretty mechwarriors!

Edited by Ryoken, 09 March 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[Arkhangel]

Fact is, everything we say either way on here is just wasting time and conjecture.

when the Skill Tree is live for a Month, or even just a week, THEN voice what's "wrong" about it, once you've had a chance to see how it does against the majority of players, not just the guys who took the time to do the PTS.

and I'm the same as Ryoken. I already know of at least five guys in my unit and/or friends list that're coming back due to this change.

Honestly, as I'm also a WoW player, it's really easy to basically compare this to an expansion coming out. always those guys who bail because they hate where the game went, and there's always the bunch who come back because the changes that showed up were stuff they liked. Not really all that diff here. Add to that that we have new tech on the close horizon too, which is honestly going to mix things up in a huge way itself. Having slightly closer to weapon parity, and possibly, say, IS Omnimechs like the Avatar, Raptor or Sunder, or Assaults like the Annihilator or Gunslinger, etc. will probably cause a bit of balancing out between the factions.

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 March 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[I cant want to]

and with the new tech will come a meta shift - which will mean a lot of mechs will need to re-grind again for new skill unlocks, with a lot of xp and cbills wasted on experimentation

Edited by chaothulhu, 09 March 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[Cato Phoenix]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

No, this is like Blizzard taking their level cap from 60 to 50 and then making those characters level up from 20 to 50.

[Fetherator]

This hole whining is like asking the CEO to give from his money to pay the poor workers better.

He is not willing to make it more equal, because hes fine with what it is.

[Tremendous Upside]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

It absolutely IS punishing players. What you're not getting or choosing to ignore in your example is that one segment of the L60 players would be getting refunded all the XP/cash to max back out again under the new system. Another segment of the L60s are being told they will have to grind for years to be able to apply their XP. Screwed because they spent their c-bills on inventory items other than modules. This implementation is a shameless slap in the face for a lot of people. It's not about mastery. It's about treating all of your players equally. PGIs current solution doesn't do that. It laughs at it. I'm not sure they could've come up with a crappier/less fair transition plan if they tried...

[Edward Hazen]

LOL, someone on Reddit compared PGI putting the Skill Tree into the game on the 21st to a certain early 20th century Austrian and his political party! Too much butthurt, must have been posted by a perpetually offended millennial, who believes that anyone who makes rules that they don't agree with is a follower of that certain 20th century Austrian.

Note: Edited my post because PGI's word filter is "extra cautious".

Note 2: Changed that to 20th century Austrian, my apologies Germans.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 09 March 2017 - 04:50 PM.

[Xaat Xuun]

Appogee, on 09 March 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

Less XP for one Mech vs three Mechs, yes.

But at the end of leveling under the current system, I have three Mechs, and enough CBills to buy another.

At the end of the leveling under the new system, I have one Mech, and not enough CBills to buy another.

Plus, you'll be leveling your Mechs against leveled meta Mechs, without access to Radar Dep and Seismic or even Speed Tweak for many many more matches than you do now.

pretty much this is what I do not like about the layout coming from the new skill tree, Speed tweak is the first elite I get, now it becomes the last.
from My PoV, the skill tree mainly caters to Pokers, and Range and Quick play

[-Ramrod-]

Conclusion of Skill Tree PTS: Nobody wants it. It's garbage. Game over, Would you like to play again?

[Edward Hazen]

Ramrod AI, on 09 March 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Conclusion of Skill Tree PTS: Nobody wants it. It's garbage. Game over, Would you like to play again?

And you speak for everyone?

[Trev Firestorm]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

No its like Blizzard adding 61-80, making level 80 have lower stats than the previous level 60, then resetting all but one of your characters to level 1.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 09 March 2017 - 06:02 PM.

[MechLord71]

He does not speak for me. I refuse to freak out or overreact. I will wait for release. If it is a bit off at first, I will take a break and come back after they develop it further. That is the luxury of a non-subscription game. I can play or take a break and come back later without losing a dime.

I look forward to seeing what this change brings. That is just my opinion and you of course are entitled to yours as well.

Thanks!


P.S.

I would also like to add that unlike many other free to play games with similar fighting mechanics, I do not have to pay for repairs after every match which is nice. So, if I have to play a bit more to earn some more C-bills, that is okay....I was going to play anyway. If they put in after match repairs, without also putting in salvage rules at the same time, I would be a bit more concerned than this skill tree change.

Edited by MechLord71, 09 March 2017 - 06:05 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Arkhangel, on 08 March 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

actually, it more shows how disconnected they are from salty whiners who don't like change.

Nice ad hominem, you keep staying classy...

If you actually took the time to read the forums without your Luddite confirmation bias filter you would see that the vast majority of the players are putting forth valid criticisms and asking for tweaks and tuning on the system, not some abject whining about change. Nobody I have seen is screaming 'don't change my placeholder skill tree that we've had for 5 years'.

Everyone wants change here, the execution is what is the problem. This skill tree is too costly, too convoluted, and doesn't meet most of the goals that PGI set out to meet in the first place. Rolling it out half-baked is a bad idea. This is the company that has a long, solid history of rolling out placeholders that stay in place for years (e.g. existing placeholder skill tree, Command Console, Clan ACs, etc), and it is glacially slow to do even simple balance passes on weapons or quirks. Things that are literally (and yes I mean the real meaning of literally) text edits in XML docs. And lets not forget their well established history of getting those text edits right...oh wait...

And lets briefly talk about balance shall we? 156 possible skills. 91 skill points. You think PGI has a hard time figuring out balance *now*? They just exponentially increased their own difficulty to determine balance. Coupled with their already glacial balance passes, this is just more bad on top of a bad foundation.

Nice, and very substantial edit by the way. I've only responded to your original message, because to be blunt, there isn't any reason to respond to the rest in light of what I have said above.

EDIT: fixed a couple of minor typos

Edited by EgoSlayer, 11 March 2017 - 03:02 PM.

[Sereglach]

EgoSlayer, on 09 March 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

Nice ad hominem, you keep staying classy...

If you actually took the time to read the forums without your Luddite confirmation bias filter you would see that the vast majority of the players are putting forth valid criticisms and asking for tweaks and tuning on the system, not some abject whining about change. Nobody I have seen is screaming 'don't change my placeholder skill tree that we've had for 5 years'.

Everyone wants change here, the execution is what is the problem. This skill tree is too costly, too convoluted, and doesn't meet most of the goals that PGI set out to meet in the first place. Rolling it out half-baked is a bad idea. This is the company that has a long, solid history of rolling out placeholders that stay in place for years (e.g. existing placeholder skill tree, Command Console, Clan ACs, etc), and it is glacially slow to do even simple balance passes on weapons or quirks. Things that are literally (and yes I mean the real meaning of literally) text edits in XML docs. And lets not forget their well established history of getting those text edits right...oh wait...

And lets briefly talk about balance shall we? 156 possible skills. 91 skill points. You think PGI has a hard time figuring out balance *now*? They just exponentially increased their own difficulty in determine balance. Coupled with their already glacial balance passes, this is just more bad on top of a bad foundation.

Nice, and very substantial edit by the way. I've only responded you your original message, because to be blunt, there isn't any reason to respond to the rest in light of what I have said above.

QFT. It's funny to see the handful of people trying so hard to act like nothing is wrong and people don't have valid concerns; and are mostly trying to accomplish this by insulting or "shouting down" legitimate concerns that are being brought up.

On the other hand, I've noticed that PGI is now trying to cover up this debacle with teases of the new tech announcements and mech pack announcement coming next week. It reminds me of the older town halls where Russ would answer a few softball questions from NGNG, pass off almost anything worth spending time on with "I'll have someone look into that and get back with you", and then overshadow it all with art teasers and upcoming mech announcements.

[Domenoth]

Ryoken, on 09 March 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

I do not see it as punishing players. It's like Blizzard is adding lvl 61-80 to their skill system that formerly only had 60 levels and people would start complaining that they want to have all their previously lvl 60 characters automatically moved to lvl 80.

If you do not like leveling and grinding all those different mechs simply don't do it, you don't have to any more.

If you enjoy playing a single mech fully skilled, enjoy because you most certainly will have enough cbills and xp to also have it maxed out under the new system.

If you would enjoy grinding all those different mechs you could also be happy as you now can further level on and grind those mechs.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to try to help you understand. I realize you've already made up your mind and no counterargument is going to sink through, but since you used this analogy I'm going to try.

The way you construct your analogy is flawed. You accidentally (or conveniently) left some very key points out.

You are correct this is VERY much like WoW when Blizzard increases the level cap from 60 to 80. That's a long accepted practice, and lot's of people enjoy taking their characters from 60 on up to 80.

Here's where your analogy falls flat. PGI is not doing exactly that. What they are doing is increasing the cap to 80, but for a large portion of the population, they're setting their characters back to level 1. But "it's okay" says PGI because "we're refunding all of your experience and for the small sum of 700,000,000 Gold, you can get your character back to level 60 instantly."

Then here come players who don't fall into this category who offer up, "Don't worry guys, if you don't have 700,000,000 Gold, you can abandon the character you've been working on and start another. You didn't really care about that character anyway."

It absolutely floors me that you can't understand how people who have been playing this game diligently and fall into this category are upset by this.

And before you say my version of this analogy doesn't fit either, let's clearly define where things line up.

1. This is intended as a level increase - Russ has said on twitter, Mastered in the old system not equal to the new system.

2. Players are getting set back to level 1 - PGI and the PTS have demonstrated that everyone starts with an empty Skill Tree for all their Mechs but everyone's EXP is getting refunded.

3. I calculated how much EXP and CBills I'm going to get refunded. I then calculated how many Skill Points I have EXP for and how many CBills it will cost me to use all my EXP. I'm going to get 360,000,000 CBills as my refund. It's going to cost me 766,440,000 CBills to level my mechs back to (at most) 72 Skill Points (I'm still in the process of leveling some of my Mechs). That leaves me with a 390,000,000 CBills deficit.

4. My calculations are not based on getting my Mechs all they way to 91 Skill Points. All I'm asking for is to get back to Level 60. I am not asking for a free handout up to level 80 so please stop claiming people like me are.

Based on my stats page, it's going to take me about 2 years to make up the 390,000,000 CBills deficit if all I do is spend every single CBill I make on spending my Historical XP. And in that 2 years, I will have accumulated an additional 4,021,550 EXP that I won't be able to spend because I dumped all my CBills trying to dig myself out of my refund.

And if you're curious (I doubt you are - your mind already made up and whatnot) 4,021,550 EXP would cost an additional 301,616,250 CBills to spend.

Guess I'll get to spend another 2 years earning enough CBills to spend the EXP I got while earning CBills to spend the EXP I got. But I'm sure I'll be super motivated to buy Mech Packs throughout that 4 years.

process, on 09 March 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

I've never played WOW, but that analogy only works if:

1. Blizzard previously required you to get 3 characters to level 40 before one of them could get to level 60.
2. Blizzard made you pay to level up.
3. Blizzard expected players to have hundreds of characters.

Sorry, I don't really agree with your take on the analogy either.

Edited by Domenoth, 09 March 2017 - 08:22 PM.

[Arkhangel]

@EgoSlayer: fact is though, the guys making the complaints and concerns are the SAME people. the people looking forward to the skill tree are DIFFERENT people, which means, overall, more people posting on this specific forum chunk ARE in favor of it, warts and all.

and as i said before, it's coming whether we want it or not. they already delayed it a month. and no amount of PTS testing would ever satisfy everyone anyways.