90 replies to this topic

[Unnatural Growth]

Appogee, on 11 March 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

Classic expectation manipulation...

First Reveal: 100,000 CBills
Player Reaction: Outrage!

Second Reveal: 150,000 CBills
Player Reaction: Outrage!

Third Reveal: 50,000 CBills
Player Reaction: "Well it's not good but at least it's not as bad."

Fourth Reveal: 45,000 CBills
Player Reaction: "Thanks Russ!"



And that, kids, is how you go from 0 CBills to level a Mech, to more than 4M CBills to level a Mech, while getting the potatoes to actually thank you for it.

Well said. I agree.



PGI: "Drink the Kool Aid kiddies! DRINK IT!!"

Whiteknights: "Glug, glug, glug.... "

[Zergling]

Mister Blastman, on 11 March 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Guess what? As difficult as it may be for you and others to understand, WE DON'T HAVE TO GRIND.

We can find other things to spend our time with.

Uh, you do realise that you were grinding already, right?

While yeah, the grind with the skill tree is worse in some circumstances, it is also better in some other circumstances.
Hell, it is very likely an increase in grind overall for the majority of players, but there definitely was a grind before the skill tree.

Edited by Zergling, 11 March 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Zergling, on 11 March 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

As difficult it may be for you and others to understand this, the skill tree is part of the grind now.

Consumables are the same as they always have been; they lower the grind progression, and have never been accounted for in progression calculations because they are are basically 'reduced grind speed to win' (or when tied with premium time and other income boosts, 'pay to win').


As for my position with the skill tree, I have 98 mechs, and 40 of those are mastered. I will be receiving a 193 million cbill refund from my modules, which is enough to master 47 mechs (at 4.095 million each), so I'll be coming out ahead.

Interestingly, my cbills per battles is 155,288.25, and with 3381 battles played that is 525 million cbills I've earned in total.
I've also spent roughly 392 million cbills on mechs; 193 + 392 is 585 million, so I've made a fair number of cbills back from selling mechs, weapons and engines.

I suspect that many people coming up short after the module refund have much lower effective net cbill income per battle because they were using consumables, which reduced the amount of cbills they had available for things like modules.

It may be hard for you and others to understand but putting a lot of words together about something doesnt mean you understand the situation at all....

So they created MORE grind and you are happy about it?

Because you are an edge case and arent really affected by this at all, you have been playing forever and have no mechs so it not a issue for you.

Zergling, on 11 March 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Uh, you do realise that you were grinding already, right?

While yeah, the grind with the skill tree is worse in some circumstances, it is also better in some other circumstances.
Hell, it is very likely an increase in grind overall for the majority of players, but there definitely was a grind before the skill tree.

It better for mechs that are already the definiton of power creep and worse for mechs that are deemed terribad.

[Mister Blastman]

Zergling, on 11 March 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

Uh, you do realise that you were grinding already, right?

While yeah, the grind with the skill tree is worse in some circumstances, it is also better in some other circumstances.
Hell, it is very likely an increase in grind overall for the majority of players, but there definitely was a grind before the skill tree.

And this new c-bill salt substitute is like dumping diarrhea sprinkles on tiramisu. Who the hell would want to dump diarrhea sprinkles on their tiramisu?!

[Zergling]

Revis Volek, on 11 March 2017 - 09:25 AM, said:

Because you are an edge case and arent really affected by this at all, you have been playing forever and have no mechs so it not a issue for you.

Well, my main point is that people shouldn't account for consumable usage in how much their grind is. Direct comparisons in grind just aren't easy to make, so it'd be difficult to compare grind post-skill tree to grind pre-skill tree with consumable use.

And I suspect (but cannot confirm) that a contributing factor to why I'm coming out ahead after module refund, is that I've never used consumables.


As for grind being increased, that's a question that requires a 'depends'. If a player is only playing and mastering a single variant of each chassis, then there is actually less grind.
If a player is mastering more than one variant of a chassis, then there is definitely more grind.

Mister Blastman, on 11 March 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

And this new c-bill salt substitute is like dumping diarrhea sprinkles on tiramisu. Who the hell would want to dump diarrhea sprinkles on their tiramisu?!

I don't think I've ever heard a more hilarious analogy, lmao.

Edited by Zergling, 11 March 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[Roughneck45]

Random thought. What if the only skill nodes that required c-bills were the ones that are currently modules. They could divide the current price of a module between how many nodes it has.

[C E Dwyer]

Russ Bullock, on 10 March 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Hey guys.

Just wanted to re-iterate that we can't refund many hundreds of billions of cbills back into the economy without a one time initial Cbill cost per node.

Still looking at data to come up with the right number. It's at 45k atm and that works well for most players, but looking to improve edge cases.

Edging in the lifestyle means something a good deal different to how I think you intend it to mean.

Having got passed that point *coughs* it's a pun on innuendo !

Whether people are for, against, or indifferent, the skill tree is going live.

Due to changes that have happened over the years it has at times altered the meta, quite substantially, when this happens in future, will the players get refunds of c-bills and XP to cover the costs of the enforced change or will they have to, regrind the nodes they had to alter ?

[Weeny Machine]

OldOrgandonor, on 11 March 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

Well said. I agree.



PGI: "Drink the Kool Aid kiddies! DRINK IT!!"

Whiteknights: "Glug, glug, glug.... "

And you need a tinfoil hat. Heck, I criticise PGI hard and often, however, you cannot get all the time 100% what you want. Sorry, but learn to live with it.

What I dislike, though, is that there is no kind of grace period in which you can test a spec before you have to pay the cost. People forget that. THIS can be really expensive. Not the other stuff you and others moan about so often

Edited by Bush Hopper, 11 March 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Roughneck45, on 11 March 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Random thought. What if the only skill nodes that required c-bills were the ones that are currently modules. They could divide the current price of a module between how many nodes it has.

I made a similar suggestion and I think your version is a bit better. It even solves PGI's perceived issue of the massive influx on C-Bills "ruining the economy". Then, if you never really used Modules, you can continue to level your 'mechs for free. If you did use Modules? Well, now you can't swap them.

[R Valentine]

Russ Bullock, on 10 March 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Hey guys.

Just wanted to re-iterate that we can't refund many hundreds of billions of cbills back into the economy without a one time initial Cbill cost per node.

Still looking at data to come up with the right number. It's at 45k atm and that works well for most players, but looking to improve edge cases.

Only you aren't putting it in as a one time cost. You're charging us for respecs too.

[Andi Nagasia]

always find it fun regardless if PGI does something we think is Right or Wrong,
Agree with PGI's Actions = White Knight that couldnt care less about the Common Man,
Dis-Agree with PGI's Actions = Realist that only wants whats best for the Community,

you cant please everyone,
personally i see this New skill Tree as increasing the Level Cap,
yes people can say when a Company increases the Level cap they dont take away all previous progress!!!
well i can tell you as its looking PGI isnt taking away all your previous progress,

they are just increasing the Level Cap from 30 to 40,
seting you back to Level 0 with all the EXP and Gold you had on your Previous adventures,
then telling you you can now Spec however you please, with the New Tree,

most games just increase the level cap,
WOW, they've increased the Level cap from 60-80,
if that new level had content or abilities i couldnt get because of how ive built my Character up to that point? o well,
i just had to pay to Completely re-spec my character, so i could choose a different path to get what i wanted,

im not saying the new Skill Trees Perfect, but its a start, and better than what we currently have,
it will benefit new players and those with few mech bays, people who have tons of modules as well,
yes some with loads of mech bays & few modules will have some problems, with expanding costs,
but this sometimes happens with a new system, you cant make everyone happy,

make the cost too low, people who Can afford it & want abit of grind and challenge may not find it and complain,
make it too high, people who Cant afford it may find the Grind way too much taking the fun away and complain,
a mid point and balance has to be found, not to please everyone, but to please most everyone,

thank you,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 11 March 2017 - 10:37 AM.

[FireStoat]

Appogee, on 11 March 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

And that, kids, is how you go from 0 CBills to level a Mech, to more than 4M CBills to level a Mech, while getting the potatoes to actually thank you for it.

I agree that manipulation has been going on from the start with this project, but I have to point out a flaw in your example. The old system wasn't 0 CBills to level a mech. There was a 3 mech system, and for many players this was a chore in that they might only want one mech but were forced to purchase 2 more to get what they finally wanted.

The community bitched about this a TON. PGI finally decided to do something about it, but they still needed the CBill sink that existed in the game with the 3 mech method. Did you honestly expect to walk away from the 3 Mech system with all costs eliminated? That's some Kool-Aid drinking right there.

I'm right there with you though on not appreciating the manipulation and bull*** this rolling dumpster fire has generated for the game. We deserved better than this.

[Jay Leon Hart]

FireStoat, on 11 March 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

I agree that manipulation has been going on from the start with this project, but I have to point out a flaw in your example. The old system wasn't 0 CBills to level a mech. There was a 3 mech system, and for many players this was a chore in that they might only want one mech but were forced to purchase 2 more to get what they finally wanted.

The community bitched about this a TON. PGI finally decided to do something about it, but they still needed the CBill sink that existed in the game with the 3 mech method. Did you honestly expect to walk away from the 3 Mech system with all costs eliminated? That's some Kool-Aid drinking right there.

I'm right there with you though on not appreciating the manipulation and bull*** this rolling dumpster fire has generated for the game. We deserved better than this.

If they *really* want to use the loss of the 3 'mech leveling system as as excuse for the C-Bill costs (along with the Module refunds) then why not just convert *all* other XP - 'mech, module, misc skill - into GXP and call it a day? Then, people who have "useless" 'mech variants from the old system or had them at some point, can get all that XP back *and* a chunk of change if they decide to sell those 'mechs.

[GrimRiver]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 March 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

always find it fun regardless if PGI does something we think is Right or Wrong,
Agree with PGI's Actions = White Knight that couldnt care less about the Common Man,
Dis-Agree with PGI's Actions = Realist that only wants whats best for the Community,

you cant please everyone,
personally i see this New skill Tree as increasing the Level Cap,
yes people can say when a Company increases the Level cap they dont take away all previous progress!!!
well i can tell you as its looking PGI isnt taking away all your previous progress,

they are just increasing the Level Cap from 30 to 40,
seting you back to Level 0 with all the EXP and Gold you had on your Previous adventures,
then telling you you can now Spec however you please, with the New Tree,

most games just increase the level cap,
WOW, they've increased the Level cap from 60-80,
if that new level had content or abilities i couldnt get because of how ive built my Character up to that point? o well,
i just had to pay to Completely re-spec my character, so i could choose a different path to get what i wanted,

im not saying the new Skill Trees Perfect, but its a start, and better than what we currently have,
it will benefit new players and those with few mech bays, people who have tons of modules as well,
yes some with loads of mech bays & few modules will have some problems, with expanding costs,
but this sometimes happens with a new system, you cant make everyone happy,

make the cost too low, people who Can afford it & want abit of grind and challenge may not find it and complain,
make it too high, people who Cant afford it may find the Grind way too much taking the fun away and complain,
a mid point and balance has to be found, not to please everyone, but to please most everyone,

thank you,

Alot of them aren't realist, just complaining for complaining sake without any facts or evidence to back up their claims.

The truth is NOBODY knows what is going to happen once skill tree comes out, for one to say that they do know is nothing but delusional.

It's not like PGI wants their currently biggest source of income to tank like the Titanic.

They've already said years ago that the 3 mech and mods system was just a place holder and they waited too long to change it and people gotten too used to it.

If the game came out today like it was it's first day with the skill system then nobody would've been the wiser about the 3 mech system ever existing.

[Revis Volek]

Roughneck45, on 11 March 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Random thought. What if the only skill nodes that required c-bills were the ones that are currently modules. They could divide the current price of a module between how many nodes it has.

I kinda thought this was how it was gonna be all along...

I.E. Adv. Seismic and Target Gathering Modules would be Cbill nodes and Mech Agility nodes, Cooldowns on all weapons, sensor ranges to an extent would be XP/GXP

and then you could even mix. Make the MASTER node 1 mill cbills and some GXP and i would feel better.

[Dr Mlem]

OldOrgandonor, on 11 March 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

-snip-

All you really show, is that feedback and input can help change things for the better. And you assume they are even done looking at economy. Many things are subject to change.

It may surprise you, but people who disagree with you have their own opinions that aren't for the sole purpose of kissing PGI's ***. Most realize that this is what we are getting, regardless, and might as well add constructive criticism and suggestions compared to bitching, and putting stupid reaction pictures.

The skill tree still has issues that even semi-positive fans of the skill tree system can see. And PGI has a history of stupid implementations (the first forced iteration of the minimap rings a bell).

And there WILL always be a cost. Due to economies sake, so regardless of WHAT they implement, their WILL be a c-bill sink regardless.

[Baulven]

First I would like to say to Russ thank you for actually addressing the forums.

However I think the Cbills sweet spot is around 30k per node single buy. Even for new people pulling horrible numbers that would mean they are able to buy nodes quickly, which makes new player experience better. On a bad match it is quite possible to pull less than 65k on a loss (skirmish sub 250 damage) and a lot of new players can get discouraged at the idea of having a huge hill to climb.

If you really need cbills to disappear offer a double cbills half xp option for the rich people to be able to purchase upgrades quicker which would actually make it a good time investment for new mechs (since you can't grind mech specific xp but you can cbills between releases.)

[Lucky Noob]

Russ Bullock, on 10 March 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Hey guys.

Just wanted to re-iterate that we can't refund many hundreds of billions of cbills back into the economy without a one time initial Cbill cost per node.

Still looking at data to come up with the right number. It's at 45k atm and that works well for most players, but looking to improve edge cases.

Hi Russ, its easy

all Skill who where in the old Skilltree = 0 Cbills.

all Skills who where in Modules = whatever you want to cost em.

This Way New Players can still get resonable Skills while Collecting for new Mechs,

People like me who never where into Modules can still get many Skills to get back to the Preformance as before.

And You Can Drain C-Bills from all who used Modules.

Anybody is happy.

[Baulven]

Also single node purchases and a very small refit cost are also in order. The skills are mech upgrades, since wishful thinking can't increase your armor. Unless we are playing the slap dash tossing out the Artemis system everytime we swap missiles (which is still stupid as hell) there is literally no reason anybody in the universe would be willing to throw out functioning equipment they are not currently using. Hell I would buy a dropships just for gear before I would let that happen.

[Glaive-]

Appogee, on 11 March 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

Classic expectation manipulation...

First Reveal: 100,000 CBills
Player Reaction: Outrage!

Second Reveal: 150,000 CBills
Player Reaction: Outrage!

Third Reveal: 50,000 CBills
Player Reaction: "Well it's not good but at least it's not as bad."

Fourth Reveal: 45,000 CBills
Player Reaction: "Thanks Russ!"



And that, kids, is how you go from 0 CBills to level a Mech, to more than 4M CBills to level a Mech, while getting the potatoes to actually thank you for it.

Do not ignore the fact that we still had to buy modules in the old system. Sure you could swap them around and reduce the cost through that, but there was still a c-bill cost involved with "maxing" a mech. Since we are getting refunded for those past purchases, the c-bill cost should remain.

Edited by armyunit, 11 March 2017 - 01:32 PM.