40 replies to this topic

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Skribs, on 11 March 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

And then later re-purchase the Mech and re-buy the upgrades (i.e. double heat sinks) for it? No, thanks.

Selling is optional...some are attached to every mech they have, others are not.

[Skribs]

I eventually want to have 1 of everything. Selling things, even at full price, but not getting my upgrades back, puts me behind in that goal.

[ForceUser]

What a lot of people are asking for is for PGI to give them Cbills they did not earn. Asking for any kind of cbill reward for mastered mechs (even in the shape of free skill points) is exactly that. Yes it is.

If you can explain to me how it's fair for one person to get more Cbills they did not earn (spent cbills on mechs) than another person (spent cbills on modules) then I'll support it.

Edited by ForceUser, 11 March 2017 - 08:40 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

What a lot of people are asking for is for PGI to give them Cbills they did not earn. Asking for any kind of cbill reward for mastered mechs (even in the shape of free skill points) is exactly that. Yes it is.

If you can explain to me how it's fair for one person to get more Cbills they did not earn (spent cbills on mechs) than another person (spent cbills on modules) then I'll support it.

The most of the skills should not cost cbills in the first place, this is where its getting all ****** up. We're getting screwed out of content we ALREADY EARNED.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 11 March 2017 - 08:51 PM.

[ForceUser]

Trev Firestorm, on 11 March 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

The skills should not cost cbills in the first place, this is where its getting all ****** up.

They can't not have the skills cost cbills, they're rolling the module system that cost cbills into the new skill tree. If you know even the tiniest bit about how F2P games' economies function you would know how incredibly unfeasible that would be. It has to have a cbill cost, there is no way around this ever.

But I guess I wont get an answer to my question here either.

Edited by ForceUser, 11 March 2017 - 08:53 PM.

[K O N D O]

Trev Firestorm, on 11 March 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

The most of the skills should not cost cbills in the first place, this is where its getting all ****** up. We're getting screwed out of content we ALREADY EARNED.

No you you're not mate. The new skill tree includes equivalent module content. If you did not purchase any modules then you are not being screwed.

If you think all your mastered mechs should automatically get all 91 nodes unlocked, then so should the people that spent up big on modules. Plus they should also get all the CB they spent on modules so they can buy more mechs to get equal return as the mech rich players.

It costs a little over 4Mil CB's to master a mech. A seismic sensor costs 6Mil. With the new tree you get enough nodes to unlock about 12-15 Mil worth of equivalent modules.

I understand you frustration but like others have said here and in other threads. A line has to been drawn somewhere without disadvantaging either mech rich or mech poor players.

Also like others have said, push for PGI to enable players 1 month to get a full refund on mechs (inc. costs of double HS, endo etc) and no-one will be disadvantaged. That is a fair trade-off for everyone.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

What a lot of people are asking for is for PGI to give them Cbills they did not earn. Asking for any kind of cbill reward for mastered mechs (even in the shape of free skill points) is exactly that. Yes it is.

If you can explain to me how it's fair for one person to get more Cbills they did not earn (spent cbills on mechs) than another person (spent cbills on modules) then I'll support it.

Unless they change something, mechs will continue to sell back for a fraction of their original cost. I'm personally not asking for anything more than maybe getting full refunds on some mechs, and not asking for C-bills beyond what I've previously earned.

[ForceUser]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 11 March 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:

Unless they change something, mechs will continue to sell back for a fraction of their original cost. I'm personally not asking for anything more than maybe getting full refunds on some mechs, and not asking for C-bills beyond what I've previously earned.

That's not how it works either though. You can't sell a used car back for full price.

ps. modules are being recalled, that's why you get full price.

Edited by ForceUser, 11 March 2017 - 10:41 PM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

That's not how it works either though. You can't sell a used car back for full price.

ps. modules are being recalled, that's why you get full price.

Then for those chassis that I had to buy 3 mechs just to level the 1 mech I really wanted, they should offer to recall the other 2 mechs because they are doing away with the Rule of 3...that was just as much of a cost under the old system as modules were.

[DAYLEET]

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

What a lot of people are asking for is for PGI to give them Cbills they did not earn. Asking for any kind of cbill reward for mastered mechs (even in the shape of free skill points) is exactly that. Yes it is.

If you can explain to me how it's fair for one person to get more Cbills they did not earn (spent cbills on mechs) than another person (spent cbills on modules) then I'll support it.

No one wants cbills we didnt earn. We dont want PGI to change the system so that a part of the player base find themselves under everyone arbitrarily. The current system, it cost nothing to master a mech to be on par with everyone else, you pay once for the modules to be on par with everyone else. They cant just decide that "hey now half the population either lose their mech or stop playing" fk that ****.

It's never been about the bonuses you get from the mastery or the module you use. It was always about being equal to your peers in combat. We are going to lose that for an imaginary economy that makes no sense in a solo fps to begin with.

Edited by DAYLEET, 11 March 2017 - 10:58 PM.

[ForceUser]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 11 March 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

Then for those chassis that I had to buy 3 mechs just to level the 1 mech I really wanted, they should offer to recall the other 2 mechs because they are doing away with the Rule of 3...that was just as much of a cost under the old system as modules were.

But there is nothing wrong with those mechs. Those mechs aren't being removed like modules are.

[Skribs]

K O N D O, on 11 March 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

No you you're not mate. The new skill tree includes equivalent module content. If you did not purchase any modules then you are not being screwed.

If you think all your mastered mechs should automatically get all 91 nodes unlocked, then so should the people that spent up big on modules. Plus they should also get all the CB they spent on modules so they can buy more mechs to get equal return as the mech rich players.

It costs a little over 4Mil CB's to master a mech. A seismic sensor costs 6Mil. With the new tree you get enough nodes to unlock about 12-15 Mil worth of equivalent modules.

I understand you frustration but like others have said here and in other threads. A line has to been drawn somewhere without disadvantaging either mech rich or mech poor players.

Also like others have said, push for PGI to enable players 1 month to get a full refund on mechs (inc. costs of double HS, endo etc) and no-one will be disadvantaged. That is a fair trade-off for everyone.

Okay, so previously you could elite a Mech out without spending any extra C-Bills (aside from getting extra Mechs, which maybe you keep). You could reap the benefits of speed tweak, twist X and twist speed, cool run, etc. without spending an extra dime.

So in the extreme example that someone spent 0 on modules because they just relied on skills alone, those players would be reset to 0 skills.

Now, to my understanding, the majority of players with large mech bays module swap. These players are usually whales who spend a lot of money on new Mechs. These are the players that are going to get screwed over by the system. PGI has let the system run with swappable modules for over 3 years, and are all of a sudden changing it to a system where you cannot swap anymore.

With the current system I have 80 Mechs that have the potential to be at full power. Many of these I have bought with real money. With the new system at the current 45k/node price, I could have 40 or 45 at full power, after the module refund.

Losing half my Mechs that were in a ready state is not my idea of fun. If PGI thinks for some reason that the majority of the community wants half their Mechs to be neutered, I don't know what they're thinking.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

ForceUser, on 11 March 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

But there is nothing wrong with those mechs. Those mechs aren't being removed like modules are.

There are plenty of examples of variants that are so close to each other, it just isn't worth leveling up more than one of them again (energy-only Firestarters, for example), so they will sit idle. There are also sub-optimal variants that aren't worth moving forward with, either, but they were purchased just to get 3 mechs of that chassis (shoulda picked a Catapult other than C1, for example).

[Kali Rinpoche]

Skribs, on 11 March 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

With the current system I have 80 Mechs that have the potential to be at full power. Many of these I have bought with real money. With the new system at the current 45k/node price, I could have 40 or 45 at full power, after the module refund.

Losing half my Mechs that were in a ready state is not my idea of fun. If PGI thinks for some reason that the majority of the community wants half their Mechs to be neutered, I don't know what they're thinking.

And this is the my point exactly. No one is talking about free cbills here. I have 1/2 a billion cbills as it is, but come the 21st I have zero. I will be 56 mechs short of re-mastering the basic functionality we all earned by mastering all our mechs in the 1st place.

The easiest solution either grandfather those of us losing large amount of our mech's functionality or just make the Weapons Nodes cost money. This way we could, if we choose, get back our skills we lost in the reset, but make things link radar derp, etc cost cash. Not heat and mobility imo.

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 11 March 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

There are plenty of examples of variants that are so close to each other, it just isn't worth leveling up more than one of them again (energy-only Firestarters, for example), so they will sit idle. There are also sub-optimal variants that aren't worth moving forward with, either, but they were purchased just to get 3 mechs of that chassis (shoulda picked a Catapult other than C1, for example).

True, but a lot of us kept those mechs and didn't sell them. We are collectors, and now our collections, that we don't have the cash to buy back the skills we earned by leveling, are left non-combat effective.

Edited by Kali Rinpoche, 11 March 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[ForceUser]

But you still got to play those mechs, you still used those mechs, you 'experienced the content'.

Regardless, how will you address the people who collect mechs? What about them? They want their mechs mastered, never bought more than 1 of each module ever, were very efficient with swapping modules and will refuse to sell a mech even at full price. Should we effectively give them a billion Cbills worth of SP just because while people who spent cbills on modules get less. Sounds fair right?

Point is, you can't make everyone happy. PGI is looking at what price they can make the most people happy without completely nailing themselves in the rear.

Eh, it doesn't matter, this is going through, the new system is going in and a handfull of people might leave but overall, not much is going to change until the new tech comes out. That is what's going to keep most people here. You're gonna need a lot of cbills to buy all that new tech. New engines, new weapons, mech upgrades are going to be switched out.

I wonder if the vets are going to demand piles of cbills for that too.

[K O N D O]

Skribs, on 11 March 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Okay, so previously you could elite a Mech out without spending any extra C-Bills (aside from getting extra Mechs, which maybe you keep). You could reap the benefits of speed tweak, twist X and twist speed, cool run, etc. without spending an extra dime.

So in the extreme example that someone spent 0 on modules because they just relied on skills alone, those players would be reset to 0 skills.

Now, to my understanding, the majority of players with large mech bays module swap. These players are usually whales who spend a lot of money on new Mechs. These are the players that are going to get screwed over by the system. PGI has let the system run with swappable modules for over 3 years, and are all of a sudden changing it to a system where you cannot swap anymore.

With the current system I have 80 Mechs that have the potential to be at full power. Many of these I have bought with real money. With the new system at the current 45k/node price, I could have 40 or 45 at full power, after the module refund.

Losing half my Mechs that were in a ready state is not my idea of fun. If PGI thinks for some reason that the majority of the community wants half their Mechs to be neutered, I don't know what they're thinking.

I see your point and there is still a line in the sand that needs to be drawn somewhere.

So you believe an equivalent CB cost should be refunded for all mechs that have been Elited?

Sounds fair.

Let's evaluate....

Like I said in another thread, from what I tested it takes about 50 nodes to get an equivalent Basic/Elite skills. You also have to unlock a few extras that you didn't get in the Basic/Elite skills, so for argument sake, let's say it takes 45 nodes to get an equivalent to the Basic/Elite.
45 x 45,000 CB = 2,025,000 CB's.
45 x 800 XP = 36,000 XP

Since the Master skill is tied to an extra module space, it has no relevance to mech skills.

Currently it takes 37,500 XP to elite a mech. Divide that by 800XP = 47

So approximately the same number of nodes (45-47) gives you an equal amount of XP.
You can Elite a mech free of charge in the old system but in the new skill tree you also have to pay an extra 2,025,000 CB to get the equivalent Basic/Elite unlock.
The XP grind is approximately the same on the new system to unlocked 45 nodes.

Does that sound correct?

Now because each stage of the Basic and Elite has a different XP cost, it is fair to stage the CB allocation per Basic/Elite Skill unlocked.

Cool Run = 1 x 45,000 CB
Kinetic Burst = 1 x 45,000 CB
Twist X = 3 x 45,000 CB
Heat Containment = 1 x 45,000 CB
Hand Brake = 2 x 45,000 CB
Twist Speed = 3 x 45,000 CB
Arm Flex = 2 x 45,000 CB
Anchor Turn = 4 x 45,000 CB

TOTAL BASIC = 17 x 45,000 CB = 765,000 CB

Quick Ignition = 5 x 45,000 CB
Fast Fire = 8 x 45,000 CB
Pin Point = 4 x 45,000 CB
Speed Tweak = 11 x 45,000 CB

TOTAL ELITE = Basics refund (765K) + 28 x 45,000 CB (1,260,000 CB) = TOTAL 2,025,000 CB.

So if someone had Basic'd a mech which cost them zero CB in the old system. In the new Skill Tree, they can use the XP they have earned plus they get an allocation of 765,000 CB to get it back to the same level they had.

If someone has a mech they Basic'd and unlocked the Speed Tweak only. They use their original XP plus they get an allocation of 1,260,000 CB (Basic) + the Speed Tweak allocation of 11 x 45K = 1,755,000 CB to help get the mech back to it's Basic + Speed Tweak equivalent.

This sound fair to me, However......

If you have multiples of the same variant, this only applies to one (1) of them. Or else PGI is giving away free CB and will impact economy.

Next all modules are fully refunded because they are actually paid for and are tied to enhancing a mech beyond the Basic/Elite skills.

Now if a player wishes to fully master a mech with all nodes unlocked, start using your CB from the module sale or start grinding to unlock.

More to think about

Edited by K O N D O, 12 March 2017 - 12:27 AM.

[BenWhiskeyjack]

K O N D O, on 12 March 2017 - 12:12 AM, said:

I see your point and there is still a line in the sand that needs to be drawn somewhere.

So you believe an equivalent CB cost should be refunded for all mechs that have been Elited?

Sounds fair.

Let's evaluate....

Like I said in another thread, from what I tested it takes about 50 nodes to get an equivalent Basic/Elite skills. You also have to unlock a few extras that you didn't get in the Basic/Elite skills, so for argument sake, let's say it takes 45 nodes to get an equivalent to the Basic/Elite.
45 x 45,000 CB = 2,025,000 CB's.
45 x 800 XP = 36,000 XP

Since the Master skill is tied to an extra module space, it has no relevance to mech skills.

Currently it takes 37,500 XP to elite a mech. Divide that by 800XP = 47

So approximately the same number of nodes (45-47) gives you an equal amount of XP.
You can Elite a mech free of charge in the old system but in the new skill tree you also have to pay an extra 2,025,000 CB to get the equivalent Basic/Elite unlock.
The XP grind is approximately the same on the new system to unlocked 45 nodes.

Does that sound correct?

Now because each stage of the Basic and Elite has a different XP cost, it is fair to stage the CB allocation per Basic/Elite Skill unlocked.

Cool Run = 1 x 45,000 CB
Kinetic Burst = 1 x 45,000 CB
Twist X = 3 x 45,000 CB
Heat Containment = 1 x 45,000 CB
Hand Brake = 2 x 45,000 CB
Twist Speed = 3 x 45,000 CB
Arm Flex = 2 x 45,000 CB
Anchor Turn = 4 x 45,000 CB

TOTAL BASIC = 17 x 45,000 CB = 765,000 CB

Quick Ignition = 5 x 45,000 CB
Fast Fire = 8 x 45,000 CB
Pin Point = 4 x 45,000 CB
Speed Tweak = 11 x 45,000 CB

TOTAL ELITE = Basics refund (765K) + 28 x 45,000 CB (1,260,000 CB) = TOTAL 2,025,000 CB.

So if someone had Basic'd a mech which cost them zero CB in the old system. In the new Skill Tree, they can use the XP they have earned plus they get an allocation of 765,000 CB to get it back to the same level they had.

If someone has a mech they Basic'd and unlocked the Speed Tweak only. They use their original XP plus they get an allocation of 1,260,000 CB (Basic) + the Speed Tweak allocation of 11 x 45K = 1,755,000 CB to help get the mech back to it's Basic + Speed Tweak equivalent.

This sound fair to me, However......

If you have multiples of the same variant, this only applies to one (1) of them. Or else PGI is giving away free CB and will impact economy.

Next all modules are fully refunded because they are actually paid for and are tied to enhancing a mech beyond the Basic/Elite skills.

Now if a player wishes to fully master a mech with all nodes unlocked, start using your CB from the module sale or start grinding to unlock.

More to think about

The above seems pretty reasonable...or go with what several folks have said and let those of us that have had mechs prior to this change sell them for full price plus any upgrades. Neither is necessarily perfect, but it seems like these options would more neatly solve the problems that PGI themselves created by not enforcing a design point within the game originally.

Personally I'd choose the option to reclaim the full cbill price of mech + upgrades (like DHS) - there are several mechs I have only because of the rule of 3, and my only goal is to have a variety of mechs to play around with.

[Trev Firestorm]

K O N D O, on 11 March 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

No you you're not mate. The new skill tree includes equivalent module content. If you did not purchase any modules then you are not being screwed.

If you think all your mastered mechs should automatically get all 91 nodes unlocked, then so should the people that spent up big on modules. Plus they should also get all the CB they spent on modules so they can buy more mechs to get equal return as the mech rich players.

It costs a little over 4Mil CB's to master a mech. A seismic sensor costs 6Mil. With the new tree you get enough nodes to unlock about 12-15 Mil worth of equivalent modules.

I understand you frustration but like others have said here and in other threads. A line has to been drawn somewhere without disadvantaging either mech rich or mech poor players.

Also like others have said, push for PGI to enable players 1 month to get a full refund on mechs (inc. costs of double HS, endo etc) and no-one will be disadvantaged. That is a fair trade-off for everyone.

Did I ever say 91 nodes? No, no I did not. People need to stop using that false argument. The fact is they are charging cbills for skills we already have unlocked for xp, gating our progress behind a new tax. I calculated it out earlier, to get all my mechs to CURRENT performance levels will take between 1250 and 2667 additional games. That is just the nodes equivilent to what we have now.

Edit: For a casual player that is an entire year just to reacquire what has already been earned without even thinking about gaining new content.

Edited by Trev Firestorm, 12 March 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Kali Rinpoche, on 11 March 2017 - 11:21 PM, said:

True, but a lot of us kept those mechs and didn't sell them. We are collectors, and now our collections, that we don't have the cash to buy back the skills we earned by leveling, are left non-combat effective.

Yup. Im cutting out the dross.

My attitude has certainly evolved on this. Before I was planning on selling a lot of mechs due to the nerfs rendering them useless. Now I am planning on selling them because the nerfs will render many useless, even more redundant and frankly because for some mechs I just don't want to level them up again because:

one, they suck under the current system and I expect under the new system they will also suck -even if PGI gives them extra quirk help at some future date (now guarantee that), and

two, because games should be fun. Remastering feels like a chore and squirking out 149 mechs most certainly IS a chore that I don't fee like engaging in. So screw it. I'm dumping a lot because that is what this boondoggle of a new system is encouraging us to do.

Making variants nearly identical? Yes. So why keep more than one?
Making bad mechs worse? Yes. So why keep them at all?

Because of a promise...no, because of an implication...that PGI might, someday, maybe reevaluate them and perhaps then, consider giving them some quirk help, maybe. No thanks. It took almost three years for the Victors to get help after they killed them. After all that time, some extra armor does not fill me with confidence that PGI has ANY intention of actually fixing what they are about to break on the 21st. Maybe some of you are cool with waiting for another three years. I'm not. I'm dumping them because PGI is practically insisting that I do so...and I have not even mentioned cbills.

This whole system and its obvious...no that isn't right...obviousness is subjective...this mess is in their own words and mechanics explicitly contrary to what PGI originally claimed were the first two goals of the new system: increase player choice and increase mech an build diversity. What they are proposing to do is going to eliminate the play of numerous mechs and guarantee that, at least in the short run, what is popular now will remain so for at least the near future until they bless us with a quirk pass...oh, sometime...maybe...hopefully.

Diversity and choice my a55.

[Znail]

Skribs, on 11 March 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

I don't think that the extra costs are necessary. Even if they refund the price of modules and don't provide an equivalent sink, most players who are C-BIll poor now will still be C-Bill poor after the change.

PGI doesn't need to balance C-Bills around those who already have everything they want. They need to balance it around those who are still farming to buy Mechs and level what they have.



And then later re-purchase the Mech and re-buy the upgrades (i.e. double heat sinks) for it? No, thanks.

Full refund should include upgrades like double heat sinks. Also weapons, engines etc.