236 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 14 March 2017 - 12:41 AM, said:

You must have missed where PGI admitted: we had failed to provide adequate weight toward players who owned fewer Modules, swapping them from ‘Mech-to-‘Mech as needed and as facilitated by-design.

Again, this didn't affect me, I was going to get a 1.5 billion c-bill refund for my modules.

Fair enough, if PGI feels that way, PGI feels that way. But it's clear, initially, they felt it was an exploit of the system... they have backpeddled because you guys bitched enough.

Again, good job... as I said, congrats.

[Deathlike]

Just so you know...

At no time I saw the Community Manager in any part of this process. Maybe she was telling Russ all the things we were saying... except yet this was plan was going to go through regardless of our feedback until the whines went up to 11.

I dunno about you, but as a business... if you're ignoring feedback at a massive enough level until enough whining happens... there's a pretty good chance the original plan was a bad idea in the first place. Maybe that just sounds too damn obvious.

I want a new skill tree, but not the one PGI was going to bring onto us.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Deathlike, on 14 March 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Just so you know...

At no time I saw the Community Manager in any part of this process. Maybe she was telling Russ all the things we were saying... except yet this was plan was going to go through regardless of our feedback until the whines went up to 11.

I dunno about you, but as a business... if you're ignoring feedback at a massive enough level until enough whining happens... there's a pretty good chance the original plan was a bad idea in the first place. Maybe that just sounds too damn obvious.

I want a new skill tree, but not the one PGI was going to bring onto us.

I get where you're coming from here... but I'd like to counter a little.

Even if they'd gone live with the existing system, it would still need balance, and would, idealy, [and I know, idealy, and PGI, rarely mix] be continually balanced.

Again, I pose WoW as an example, in WoW, when they do massive skill changes, they refund the players points, and let them re-skill again.

So, why the hell can't we do that here? Push the tree live, balance, refund if needed, rinse, repeat.

if it works for one of the most popular games in existance, why not impliment that here?

[Deathlike]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

I get where you're coming from here... but I'd like to counter a little.

Even if they'd gone live with the existing system, it would still need balance, and would, idealy, [and I know, idealy, and PGI, rarely mix] be continually balanced.

Again, I pose WoW as an example, in WoW, when they do massive skill changes, they refund the players points, and let them re-skill again.

So, why the hell can't we do that here? Push the tree live, balance, refund if needed, rinse, repeat.

if it works for one of the most popular games in existance, why not impliment that here?

History says that PGI has not been doing incremental things... whether it be balance or quirks or anything they add to the game (Escort has lots of stuff that needs fixing - like knowing what possible route it's going to take, instead of "catch my slow arse if you can").

So, if it were implemented as is, it wouldn't be touched for months.. like Escort, CW, and most certainly UI 2.0.

If PGI were more proactive in receiving feedback AND acting on it... having an initial release followed up IMMEDIATELY with improvements and polish (just like quirks and balance), then people wouldn't be so up at arms with it.

When we leave it to PGI, it becomes a feature.. a feature that doesn't get corrected in months... years.. or ever.

[RestosIII]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

I get where you're coming from here... but I'd like to counter a little.

Even if they'd gone live with the existing system, it would still need balance, and would, idealy, [and I know, idealy, and PGI, rarely mix] be continually balanced.

Again, I pose WoW as an example, in WoW, when they do massive skill changes, they refund the players points, and let them re-skill again.

So, why the hell can't we do that here? Push the tree live, balance, refund if needed, rinse, repeat.

if it works for one of the most popular games in existance, why not impliment that here?

As Deathlike said, it's mostly a reaction time thing. PGI is really slow at noticing issues and fixing them. I mean, just look at the tube count on certain mechs still being incorrect, or as I mentioned in another thread and I will keep mentioning until it's rectified, no colorblind support. If PGI was a bit more transparent and faster, I'd be a lot less worried than I am usually.

[Karl Streiger]

I need to ask - is the reason the feedback or is the reason that somebody finally told Russ that the new 1 variant mech variant will not create enough $$$$$?

Simple want to sell that shiny new MadCat II Package - ask you self: 1 MechVariant for 25$ or 20$ or would you rather take the 3 variant package as it was for the last 1.5 years?
Doesn't matter that you only need 1 variant then but getting three for the price of one feels better - end of story and end to skill tree

[RestosIII]

Karl Streiger, on 14 March 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

I need to ask - is the reason the feedback or is the reason that somebody finally told Russ that the new 1 variant mech variant will not create enough $$$$$?

Simple want to sell that shiny new MadCat II Package - ask you self: 1 MechVariant for 25$ or 20$ or would you rather take the 3 variant package as it was for the last 1.5 years?
Doesn't matter that you only need 1 variant then but getting three for the price of one feels better - end of story and end to skill tree

If they make mechs cost that much, even for the Mad Cat MKII, my baby, I wouldn't buy it. That's just highway robbery.

[Vxheous]

RestosIII, on 14 March 2017 - 01:14 AM, said:

If they make mechs cost that much, even for the Mad Cat MKII, my baby, I wouldn't buy it. That's just highway robbery.

Well, considering a la carte purchases of Clan wave 1 mechs still sit at $55 I wouldn't be surprised that they would go back to selling 1 mech for $20 + 60 unlocked skill tree points +6 million c-bills + 30 days premium or something.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 14 March 2017 - 01:17 AM.

[The Basilisk]

An other win for the poor game design abusing minmax optimiziner crowd.

And yes....this kind of...progressin....needs to be reset.
But alll those accusations ppl would need to regrind their mechs is simply the shady cover for those ppls fear to be inable to minmax the shii out of the new system from the start because they might be unable to get the most abusive build out of the new tree from the start.

Sure the skill tree would have been pretty crappy at first and would have needed to be corrected from patch to patch but at least that would have been a progression of some kind.

Edited by The Basilisk, 14 March 2017 - 01:31 AM.

[Iacov]

I'm so disappointed that we don't see the skill tree arrive next week
I refuse to play with the current mastery system since I heard that skill trees will be implemented

it's a shame that PGI bow to the loud and whiny people instead of releasing and implementing feedback in the next weeks

[Vxheous]

The Basilisk, on 14 March 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

An other win for the poor game design abusing minmax optimiziner crowd.

And yes....this kind of...progressin....needs to be reset.
But alll those accusations ppl would need to regrind their mechs is simply the shady cover for those ppls fear to be inable to minmax the shii out of the new system from the start because they might be unable to get the most abusive build out of the new tree from the start.

Sure the skill tree would have been pretty crappy at first and would have needed to be corrected from patch to patch but at least that would have been a progression of some kind.

Wrong, any tree can be min-maxed, it's the very nature of min-maxing. Even if it is the slightest of advantages, it's still an advantage, and it's still considered min-maxing. And yes, the pile that was the skill tree in PTS was still able to be min-maxed.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 14 March 2017 - 01:34 AM.

[Gattsus]

I didn't want to have to pay in cbills for something that I had already unlocked (100+ mechs, a few modules crowd)

[oldradagast]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Ah, whining about whining - the highlight of these forums!

We've been over the facts regarding the skill maze's failures, but I'm going to single out the opening line of your sad, insulting rant for special attention.

Yes, we "got PGI to cowtail to us - the GAME'S CUSTOMERS!"

Oh, the horror - a company having to listen to its customer base instead of just make crud up that pisses them off! Seriously, do you even understand how business works, or do you honestly think PGI should have cowtailed to YOU and just pissed everyone else off? Unreal!

Edited by oldradagast, 14 March 2017 - 03:08 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 14 March 2017 - 01:33 AM, said:

Wrong, any tree can be min-maxed, it's the very nature of min-maxing. Even if it is the slightest of advantages, it's still an advantage, and it's still considered min-maxing. And yes, the pile that was the skill tree in PTS was still able to be min-maxed.

Read again I clearly wrote "...from the start..."
I never wrote anywhere that there wouldn't be minmaxing or that this system would counter minmaxing.

What I said was that those whining the loudest about the costs where those that feared not to be topdog again from the start because they may have to respec several times to get the optimum.
And this respecing costs.
And this is good.
Slows down the abuse and punishes those wanting to get the last diggit out of every loop hole.

[PyckenZot]

oldradagast, on 14 March 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

a company having to listen to its customer base

Oh please, in what way do these forums represent the customer base? Many of the most active posters (I mean whiners) even openly admit not to play anymore.

Edited by PyckenZot, 14 March 2017 - 03:17 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

PyckenZot, on 14 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

Oh please, in what way do these forums represent the customer base? Many of the most active posters (I mean whiners) even openly admit not to play anymore.

It may not be an accurate description of the player base, but it does include the players that play the game and can be arsed to login to the forum and voice their opinions.

Sounds to me this is very much over-dramatized. We all want the skill tree, we just want it implemented in a way that doesn't screw player progression or balance over. Is that too much to ask? Personally I'm fine with the progression part if the cost stayed at 45k or slightly less, but I will scream myself purple about the way the quirk changes totally wrecks faction balance. These changes without SIGNIFICANT and SIMULTANEOUS changes to the base tech would be horrible.

[oldradagast]

PyckenZot, on 14 March 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

Oh please, in what way do these forums represent the customer base? Many of the most active posters (I mean whiners) even openly admit not to play anymore.

I play, and I still spend money (for now - we'll see about the future), so you're wrong on that point.

As for the rest, you have no evidence the screaming white knights still play or spend money anymore, either, so don't play that game with me. You've got nothing to back it up, and you damn well that PGI wouldn't have delayed or cancelled the skill maze failure unless it was hitting them in the wallet. They don't listen to anything else.

[Mudhutwarrior]

All this bickering leads no where. The real issue is we are still a wash rinse repeat game. How much time have they wasted with all these cockeyed ideas since the game started? If there is a feature people actually want like PVE its gets shunted to the new game to monetize it.

Everything pretty much works in the current wash rinse repeat system but instead of adding features they are stuck servicing the NGNG Neer'do wells and the limited tryhard bastion which is twitter.

Have they once polled in game to see what the majority would like changed or added?

Nope. This game is based on the smallest numbers of opinions and loudest mouths.

Add damn features you clowns. The day you move in that direction you will win customers beyond the fanboys. Stop wasting time with idiot changes that fail before launch and build a game people want to come back to. Beyond that stop stealing promises to make another game to profit on. The profit is here if you give a care.

I am so jaded now all I see is more Bernie Madoff moves over and over separated by silly notions like this last one.

[Dodger79]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Out of all the things PGI has done over the years...I'd actually hoped this would go through. After Coolantgate, 3pv, the Island... all of that... I saw hope, I was honestly looking forward to this system. Not just for changes sake, but it honestly looked interesting to me, it looked new, and fresh.

I understand the balance concerns many of you had, I get it... but there's always going to be an inherent imbalance to the game as long as Clan's weapons differ from IS, and have different damage values and the like. It's just how the game's going to work, because Clans are INHERENTLY imbalanced to IS, because that's what happened in the core Battletech game. The balancing factor of Clan vs IS were unit sizes, and clan dogma [which is NEVER represented here]

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to. The Refund was going to help me set up specifically the mechs I wanted to work on anyway, the skill tree was FINALLY going to get rid of the 3 mechs to master rule... and by god we were going to get rid of the pointless convergence node in the current tree!

And to PGI, I'm sorry you have such a ****** base of players that question your every single attempt to do something... I know you're not perfect, and I've had enough beef with you over the years [to the point that Russ blocked me on twitter for even warning him of an uprising some 4 years ago.. would still love to be unblocked by the way, I can't see any of his posts.].

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

I was very excited about the new skill tree, too. But all the "whining" wasn't about change but about PGI not doing their damn job: game design. The 1st and 2nd PTS cannot bei called good designed (or even "thought through" designed) skill tree. There are no tradeoffs beside "take that useless sh*t in order to get sth useful. No decisions neccessary like "get movement OR armor, get buffs for range OR heat". Which is basically the same we have now: skill to the max and bei done, regardless the Chassis or the role it's supposed to fit.

Just having an idea doesn't make the idea good automatically. And PGI's ideas aren't very good most of the time. They seem to put nearly zero effort in it and then are totally surprised by the following sh*tstorm. That happens if you do not know your product and customers. And don't care about it.

[oldradagast]

The Basilisk, on 14 March 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

Sure the skill tree would have been pretty crappy at first and would have needed to be corrected from patch to patch but at least that would have been a progression of some kind.

I'm hardly part of the "min-max" crowd. I still like Awesomes and Hunchbacks. How "un-meta" can one guy be?

But here's the point - you speak of releasing trash and then "correcting it from patch to patch."

If people had ANY faith in PGI's ability to do that, they probably would not have spoken out so vocally against the skill maze. But PGI has demonstrated - repeatedly - that they love to let issues fester for months or years before doing anything about them. And, when they do act, they usually swing for the fences and fail to achieve their goals half the time. I could write a book on this, from everything from FW, to jump-jets, to all the crud mechs that were nerfed so long ago, to the Victor's missile tube count, to - ironically - the Pinpoint skill itself, which has done nothing in about 4 years except waste 3,000 XP.

PGI's track record tripped up the skill maze release probably as much as the horrible quality of what they presented.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 March 2017 - 04:18 AM.