236 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

Here's the problem Cato, every time it's a delay, it's not a delay, it's just a scrapping of the system.

Every single time they've devoted resources to something, IE Energy Draw, Info War, ect. they run the PTS, there's a backlash from a vocal group, then the change get's pulled.


EVERY TIME.

That's what I'm most concerned about, instead of PGI going forward with the decision, which they had planned for the 21st, they caved to preasure yet again, and now I'm almost entirely positive, that like those prior two systems, Skill Tree will just be axed.

Because that's, what history has taught us.

To be fair: some parts were really crap. However, some ideas also great e.g. radar detection of mechs according to their size. Suddenly lights were harder to detect and could really harass and scout.

However, as you said, a vocal group didn't like that (the heavy and assault overlord crowd in this particular case) and then EVERYTHING was scrapped. And this is, also like you said, one example. That way you cannot develop a game. It is a kind of checkmate.

[Mcgral18]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Out of all the things PGI has done over the years...I'd actually hoped this would go through. After Coolantgate, 3pv, the Island... all of that... I saw hope, I was honestly looking forward to this system. Not just for changes sake, but it honestly looked interesting to me, it looked new, and fresh.

I understand the balance concerns many of you had, I get it... but there's always going to be an inherent imbalance to the game as long as Clan's weapons differ from IS, and have different damage values and the like. It's just how the game's going to work, because Clans are INHERENTLY imbalanced to IS, because that's what happened in the core Battletech game. The balancing factor of Clan vs IS were unit sizes, and clan dogma [which is NEVER represented here]

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to. The Refund was going to help me set up specifically the mechs I wanted to work on anyway, the skill tree was FINALLY going to get rid of the 3 mechs to master rule... and by god we were going to get rid of the pointless convergence node in the current tree!

And to PGI, I'm sorry you have such a ****** base of players that question your every single attempt to do something... I know you're not perfect, and I've had enough beef with you over the years [to the point that Russ blocked me on twitter for even warning him of an uprising some 4 years ago.. would still love to be unblocked by the way, I can't see any of his posts.].

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

I'll just go ahead and quote myself again

Mcgral18, on 14 March 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

The amount of whining here is insane.
Full stop, this was not ready to hit live
Reasons are listed right there in the post: it is not a friendly system to use. It is a chore to use, which has gotten some visual improvements, but still requires some fundamental tools before going live, such as bottom up auto selection, automatic tree traversal
That along with certain other implications, also stated in the post like the losing of progress.
The current system heavily favours veterans with the frontloaded costs, while the new system should be at least a it better for new players, while leaving some veterans feeling cheated. That is being addressed
There's also the obvious balance implications coming with the patch, where some very weak mechs are having large chunks of their firepower quirks removed. Things like the spider having half its cooldown quirks removed, down from 67%. Safe to say, he'll likely be losing its competitive place, but weaker robots are also included here such as the Phract
You guys saying "Change is needed!" Need to realize change also needs to be positive
This has the potential for that, but under the current state, it would not have been positive. Some fundamental items need to be adjusted for it to be largely accepted by the community. As a vocal minority, you cannot state what's best for the game.

Your whining is ******* loud

This would NOT HAVE BEEN A GOOD CHANGE
Not at its current state

It would have had a negative impact, for a few examples, go ahead and read that quote.
It needed work, Super Simple Things (like Tree Traversal) need implementation ASAP

Shoving garbage down our throats is not you're supposed to do change. That's for the PTS to sort out. Live should be a moderately polished item with a high quality result...

Which the Skill Cloud could become, but it is not in that state at the moment

Take your White Knight cloak off for a second, and reason to us WHY the Skill Tree would have had a positive impact on the game, if everything on the PTS went live

A discussion without whining, mud throwing, or Strawmen


Also, the Skill Tree is not dead
Stop crying that the sky is falling, there's no guarantee for that. The feedback had more positive reception (well, more fixes) than any other PTS. The current placeholder still has worthless items after many years, but so did the Skill Cloud, from its inception

[Amsro]

Cathy, on 14 March 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Sorry but, cherry pickers delight is not a good skill tree.

Based on what negative points?

Just an honest question.

[Alan Davion]

Natred, on 14 March 2017 - 09:36 AM, said:

Always a way to compromise.. im sure if they tried they could figure something out.. maybe give a token saying this mech was mastered pre skill tree release or something. To make peoplw feel special.

I honestly think that's the big thing that the community is up in arms about. PGI seems convinced that they have to make every change this huge grand event, and they put all this time and effort into these huge monthly patches which only serve to further break things which have broken for God Only Knows how long.

I'm saying this in every thread about this stuff lately.

PGI keeps wielding a balance cudgel when they should be wielding a balance scalpel.

[PoorDecisions]

Woohoo, we did it!

[Clownwarlord]

You know I am not mad that Skill Tree is not making it into the game. What I am mad about is the lack of change in the game because of the "island".

[BSK]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to.

Let me explain the consequences if this update had gone online. All the players who paid a lot of money had left the game.

I have 300 mechs and bought most packages until they killed the big units. These 300 mechs had 91 nodes each. That's 27.300 nodes. Each node has a confirmation button as well. That's 54.600 clicks. Even if every click was 1 secound, this would take more than 15 hours.

Do you really think I or any other player who invested money into this game would waste a WHOLE WEEK just to have his mech pool in readiness level, again?

[Amsro]

Bush Hopper, on 14 March 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

To be fair: some parts were really crap. However, some ideas also great e.g. radar detection of mechs according to their size. Suddenly lights were harder to detect and could really harass and scout.

However, as you said, a vocal group didn't like that (the heavy and assault overlord crowd in this particular case) and then EVERYTHING was scrapped. And this is, also like you said, one example. That way you cannot develop a game. It is a kind of checkmate.

I think the reason that PTS version was scrapped was due to ghost range. While the info range stuff was excellent. Perhaps they will add the info tech stuff back in. (would be neat)

Problem being it was either all or nothing. Sort of like the last PTS, we got skill tree and agility decoupling.

Both had their issues further diluting honest feedback and creating knee jerk reactions to broken implementation of the some of the changes.

Then to top it off, they started messing with the progress of players. Icing on the cake as it were.

These are all things that could have been avoided with better in house testing. ( I don't think PGI has many in house testers, at least not enough.)

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 14 March 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'll just go ahead and quote myself again


Your whining is ******* loud

This would NOT HAVE BEEN A GOOD CHANGE
Not at its current state

It would have had a negative impact, for a few examples, go ahead and read that quote.
It needed work, Super Simple Things (like Tree Traversal) need implementation ASAP

Shoving garbage down our throats is not you're supposed to do change. That's for the PTS to sort out. Live should be a moderately polished item with a high quality result...

Which the Skill Cloud could become, but it is not in that state at the moment

Take your White Knight cloak off for a second, and reason to us WHY the Skill Tree would have had a positive impact on the game, if everything on the PTS went live

A discussion without whining, mud throwing, or Strawmen


Also, the Skill Tree is not dead
Stop crying that the sky is falling, there's no guarantee for that. The feedback had more positive reception (well, more fixes) than any other PTS. The current placeholder still has worthless items after many years, but so did the Skill Cloud, from its inception

OMG! Of all players, you McGral18 should know from experience that once this type of Ball gets on a roll there ain't no stopping it until it finally simply crashes and burns at the bottom of the hill.

Now that the "modulators" will get their "parity", what will they focus down for the "kill next" you think...? Putting anything in the Tree behind anything they don't want or feel they need for the Min-max game play, they will kill. That means there will be "NO" version of this, EVER, that satisfies their need and their "Haters gonna Hate" mentality will simply march on and on and on.

Sadly we have been here before. More than once actually. PGI caved and everyone LOST. So indeed, many who speak of the death of this thing, have seen the death of other things in the same vein before and all the signs are there yet again.

[Fake News]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

you're welcome. try to wipe the brown off your nose.

[Dodger79]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 March 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Maybe, just maybe, if we'd let them release a damned system, and see how it goes in a live enviornment before we throw as much BS at it as we can... maybe then PGI could actually get something done.

MAYBE, if players just ******* delt with what is essentially the GM telling them "no." we'd have a better game.

But whatever, I'm done fighting with you guys over this, you'll ***** and whine and that's fine... PGI is our GM for Mechwarrior Online... they're just very clearly a ****** one that refuses to stick to their guns.

It's over, and unlikely the Skill tree will see the light of day. You won... so why even worry about it anymore? Hmm, why continue to press the issue. It's clear you don't agree with my stance, so what, you're just going to stand around and gloat about it? HAHA, the feature you really wanted got axed.

**** you too.

Honestly, this is what keeps your hope high? The trust in PGI to develop/fix things after release in a timely manner? Pinpoint Accuracy would like to have a word with you. And Long Tom. And IS-/ClanXL balance. Oh, and the Victor, Highlander and Cataphract want to know why PGI still considers them being Tier1 (according to the state/level of their quirks) besides these times are long gone (3 years now?) and so much has changed since then (hoverjets, Gauss charge, more potent Mechs [WAY more powerful], decoupling of projectile speeds etc.). If you are honest to yourself and do not throw your expectations out of the window CW/FP still cannot be accepted as a fully thought out endgame mode. Heck, even the current core game (quickplay) was considered a placeholder back in closed beta by PGI. PGI has not proofed themselves that trustworthy. By their own actions. It's completely and solely their fault.

[WarHippy]

Coolant, on 14 March 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Agree with OP, Skill Tree would've brought freshness to the game...it could've gone thru changes and updates but to kill it outright was not cool for those that were complaining. The feature shouldve been released and changed over time, now it's gone the way of the dodo bird.

The only thing fresh about the proposed skill tree was that it was a fresh pile of excrement. It can and should go through those changes and updates on the test server not the live server, and rest assured I see no reason to believe the skill tree is dead. It still needs a lot more work and planning before it is ready for the live servers.

(Not directed at you Coolant)Its pretty funny watching a lot of the same people accusing those of us that had problems with the skill tree as it was as being chicken littles only to be spouting this nonsense of doom and gloom that the tree is now and forever dead.

[Zergling]

This thread is So. Damn. Ironic.

Why? Because the OP previously made a thread saying he was looking forward to the implementation of the skill tree because of all the 'salt' he claimed it would produce.
Now the OP is ridiculously salty because the skill tree got delayed.

[Deathlike]

Almond Brown, on 14 March 2017 - 10:10 AM, said:

OMG! Of all players, you McGral18 should know from experience that once this type of Ball gets on a roll there ain't no stopping it until it finally simply crashes and burns at the bottom of the hill.

Now that the "modulators" will get their "parity", what will they focus down for the "kill next" you think...? Putting anything in the Tree behind anything they don't want or feel they need for the Min-max game play, they will kill. That means there will be "NO" version of this, EVER, that satisfies their need and their "Haters gonna Hate" mentality will simply march on and on and on.

Sadly we have been here before. More than once actually. PGI caved and everyone LOST. So indeed, many who speak of the death of this thing, have seen the death of other things in the same vein before and all the signs are there yet again.

I'm gonna keep calling you out.

Do you actually play the game? Let alone, do you actually pay attention to what PGI does (let alone say)?

When the things listed by PGI about why they were doing the changes AND they simply did not happen to be followed, that would literally be a core problem with the design process, let alone the results.

You don't try to say one thing, and then do something totally different... that would be problematic in convincing anyone you were doing the right thing.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 March 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Amsro]

Zergling, on 14 March 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

This thread is So. Damn. Ironic.

Why? Because the OP previously made a thread saying he was looking forward to the implementation of the skill tree because of all the 'salt' he claimed it would produce.
Now the OP is ridiculously salty because the skill tree got delayed.

How things can change quickly.

[R Valentine]

Zergling, on 14 March 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

This thread is So. Damn. Ironic.

Why? Because the OP previously made a thread saying he was looking forward to the implementation of the skill tree because of all the 'salt' he claimed it would produce.
Now the OP is ridiculously salty because the skill tree got delayed.

To that I have to say,

"hee hee hee, ha ha ha, hoe hoe hoe, hue hue hue, hur hur hur, har har har, heehahoehuehurharhoohahurhuehoha!"

[Dodger79]

Oh, i forgot sth: there really is a quite negative impact in the delay of the new skill tree. PGI once again proofs that they are not trustworthy. People might have bought many new modules since the announcement of the refund just for skipping the search-and-swap-game for the last month or two. And now they probably will not get the refunds. Way to go to create trust throughout your playerbase/customers. Just as before when they had a 2XP/double conversion rate-event before they announced that you will need more XP on a Chassis then now and that you have to level every Mech you own of a single Variant for himself (e.g.: i have 4 CTF-3D which are all mastered automatically as i have mastered this variant) instead of just the variant itself (again, e.g.: my CTF-3D: it's my 2nd most played Mech which would have sh*tloads of XP sitting on it i haven't converted the Mech XP into GXP for real money because it had no other use. After advertising to do so with the 2XP-event they suddenly say that i would need those friggin' XP for every single Mech? Are you kidding me?!?).

Again: what is the problem here? The "whiney" community? No, it's PGI doing dumb things without even thinking of the possible consequences. They have no project management, no community management, no plan, no f*cking clue about what they are doing/want to do with their own game. Most ideas seem like to be had in the lunch break. Or after (several) after work beers. No effort, no planning, no analysing, nothing in it. Just sth puked at the customer like brain farts...

[Amsro]

Dodger79, on 14 March 2017 - 10:57 AM, said:

Oh, i forgot sth: there really is a quite negative impact in the delay of the new skill tree. PGI once again proofs that they are not trustworthy. People might have bought many new modules since the announcement of the refund just for skipping the search-and-swap-game for the last month or two. And now they probably will not get the refunds. Way to go to create trust throughout your playerbase/customers. Just as before when they had a 2XP/double conversion rate-event before they announced that you will need more XP on a Chassis then now and that you have to level every Mech you own of a single Variant for himself (e.g.: i have 4 CTF-3D which are all mastered automatically as i have mastered this variant) instead of just the variant itself (again, e.g.: my CTF-3D: it's my 2nd most played Mech which would have sh*tloads of XP sitting on it i haven't converted the Mech XP into GXP for real money because it had no other use. After advertising to do so with the 2XP-event they suddenly say that i would need those friggin' XP for every single Mech? Are you kidding me?!?).

Again: what is the problem here? The "whiney" community? No, it's PGI doing dumb things without even thinking of the possible consequences. They have no project management, no community management, no plan, no f*cking clue about what they are doing/want to do with their own game. Most ideas seem like to be had in the lunch break. Or after (several) after work beers. No effort, no planning, no analysing, nothing in it. Just sth puked at the customer like brain farts...

I feel that pain.

This pain is why I don't sell mechs/engines/modules because when PGI makes a change or says a change is being made things can go many different ways.

I for one hope they keep their word on the module to cbill refund.

If modules are no longer in game the only true refund is a cbill refund. Not some experience points or participation awards.

I can already see the tide moving back out, the second wave of rage will be hitting soon.

[FireStoat]

Thank you for the congratulations, OP. Between canceled pre orders, not logging on in the evenings, and clear feedback and advice given by the testers on the PTS and its forums, PGI made the right decision.

I'm very glad you were a part of the testing process and for all of the feedback and bugs and math that you submitted. It's greatly appreciated.

[CainenEX]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 March 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

No seriously, congrats guys, you did it, you've forced yet another attempt by the company that owns the game, to cowtail to you.

Out of all the things PGI has done over the years...I'd actually hoped this would go through. After Coolantgate, 3pv, the Island... all of that... I saw hope, I was honestly looking forward to this system. Not just for changes sake, but it honestly looked interesting to me, it looked new, and fresh.

I understand the balance concerns many of you had, I get it... but there's always going to be an inherent imbalance to the game as long as Clan's weapons differ from IS, and have different damage values and the like. It's just how the game's going to work, because Clans are INHERENTLY imbalanced to IS, because that's what happened in the core Battletech game. The balancing factor of Clan vs IS were unit sizes, and clan dogma [which is NEVER represented here]

So congrats, on destroying one of the few features that I was looking forward to. The Refund was going to help me set up specifically the mechs I wanted to work on anyway, the skill tree was FINALLY going to get rid of the 3 mechs to master rule... and by god we were going to get rid of the pointless convergence node in the current tree!

And to PGI, I'm sorry you have such a ****** base of players that question your every single attempt to do something... I know you're not perfect, and I've had enough beef with you over the years [to the point that Russ blocked me on twitter for even warning him of an uprising some 4 years ago.. would still love to be unblocked by the way, I can't see any of his posts.].

So congrats guys, you stalled out what would have honestly, been a saving grace to this game. Good job.

this thread is cancer.. Have you read nothing. i guess it was acceptable for me to lose progress on my mechs and be only limited to playing meta builds. **** off.

Edited by CainenEX, 14 March 2017 - 11:13 AM.