676 replies to this topic

[Edward Hazen]

Oberost, on 16 March 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Really?
And what's that reason?

They have learned to manage the things that I have mentioned in my post (learned to play well with penalties rather than to rely on ever more generous quirks).

[Edward Hazen]

Aramuside, on 16 March 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yes they had the Pretty Baby and you had the Kodiak 3.... such hard ship you suffered under.

No IS pilot would play a Pretty Baby by choice in anything but the most casual of games., They would take a Mauler MX-90 or King Crab, or heavily quirked meta laser Battlemaster.

[Duvanor]

Aramuside, on 16 March 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

The comment that clans were somehow disadvantaged because they "only" had mechs like the Night Gyr and Kodiak is laughable particularly when Invasion and pack etc versions gave the 30% bonus whereas the hero mechs often forced you to play in an awful or just moderate mech to get the bonus....

Coincidentally, I play both sides depending on how I and my unit feel so no preference either way. Simply making the point that a lot of the claims on both sides of this thread are laughable.

I agree with most of this. But Kodiak and Night Gyr are still new, compared to other clan mechs. Just pointing that out. I do not think clans were the inferior faction most of the time but they were lacking good assaults and scouts for some time. We've always had good meds and heavies on the other hand.

Edited by Duvanor, 16 March 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Oberost]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:30 AM.
insult

[cougurt]

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 March 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

And responses like that are exactly why the Clan players are being driven off. Good luck fighting with yourself.

hey, it's not my fault, it's literally just a fact that you have to deal with. it's funny that you say the clan players are being driven off, when i can drop into any game and be assured that at least 70% of my team will be composed of clan mechs.

[Chris Puetz]

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

They have learned to manage the things that I have mentioned in my post (learned to play well with penalties rather than to rely on ever more generous quirks).

[Redacted]
Do u think all IS Pilots are bump his brain out in beer?
We all learned to managed the thinks u posted!
All Mech had there good and there bad Sides but I think u can't and will not c it!

I'm out!

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:32 AM.
insult

[Zergling]

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 March 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Then the game is pointless. Just remove the Battletech/MechWarrior name from the product, and call it Giant Stompy Ronots Online, since that is really what it is now.

Strawman and hyperbole.

It is entirely possible to have a game that puts balance first, while still being a Battletech/Mechwarrior game.

Every single Battletech based computer game has taken liberties with lore and its influence on gameplay balance, and MWO isn't any different.

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2017 - 07:53 AM, said:

There is an easy fix. Starcraft does it. One side has better tech but less bodies & the other has more bodies but lower grade tech. And that is EXACTLY how is was in Battletech lore. Even if it was one side being adjusted might have been tolerable but they hit BOTH sides. If everyone started at 5, they buffed the IS to 7, then 8 , then 9 while nerfing the Clans down to 4, then 3 then 2.

Asymmetric balance is not an 'easy fix' by any means. A game has to be designed around it for it to work well, and MWO has most definitely been designed around symmetrical balance from the very start.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Clans get ATMs and Heavy Lasers. Looking at current Clan LRMs and their extra nerfs of streaming and requirement of being nearly head-on to do damage to mechs I don't think ATM's will be granted any of their normal capabilities and be heavily nerfed like LRMs.

ATMs can't be fired indirectly, so they won't be as heavily nerfed as LRMs.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Heavy Lasers won't work in MWO for the same reason the Supernova can't run 6x ER Larges in 3 by 3 salvos. Heavy lasers will cap the heat levels with 1 Heavy Large laser is what I am thinking, no way to run two without 30 Double Heatsinks at which point you are wasting payload space.

Heavy Large Laser will produce 18 heat per firing, at most. PGI does adjust heat levels as needed, so it is quite possible its heat will be considerably less.

Further, an elited Clan mech with 10 engine and ZERO external heat sinks has a heat capacity of 56.
Such a mech would be capable of firing 2x Heavy Large Laser without shutting down, as 38 heat would only bring the mech to 68% of heat capacity.

A clan mech with 30 double heat sinks would be capable of using 4x Heavy Large Lasers; it'd be hot, but managable, much as quad Clan ER PPCs are.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

You are going to add the Novacat at some point, why not add it's Reflective Armor.

The Nova Cat never had reflective armor.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Why don't the Clans get some kind of Stealth Armor also.

Stealth Armor is an Inner Sphere invention, and most Clans consider stealth technology to be dishonourable.

It wasn't until the Dark Age era that some Clans started using stealth armor on their mechs, starting with Clan Wolf's Wulfen light mech (which is by the way, a mixed-tech design, as the Stealth Armor is IS tech base).

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

but I.S. tech is much cooler running

This is a myth; Clans are actually cooler running than Inner Sphere, because they can mount far more double heat sinks.

Clan mechs frequently overheat faster than IS mechs, because they also have far greater firepower.
When Clan mechs are compared with IS builds that have comparable firepower and range, the Clan mech is always cooler running.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

I play both factions with two characters so I have no personal bias.

Never assume or claim you have no bias, as everyone is biased, and most people are unaware of their own.

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Clan Tech is held under a lot of restrictions like fixed equipment and the mechs get few if any Quirks. Do you have a plan for giving the Clan mechs comparable Quirks to Inner Sphere? If not you should start planning what you will change once the two factions are essentially of equal tech ability.

Many Clan mechs already have comparable quirks to Inner Sphere.

Look at the Summoner with its 70% accel/decel and 30% turn rate quirks, or the Nova with -10% energy heat generation in the Prime LT/RT omnipods (which can stack the -6% ER PPC heat gen from the A arm pods, or -5% ER Medium Laser heat gen from the Prime 8 set quirks).

And the two factions still won't be of equal tech ability; Inner Sphere still has 14 slot endo-steel and ferro, and the LFE is heavier than the Clan XL.
IS probably is getting buffed, so some quirks will be reduced, but it is unrealistic for IS to be competitive with Clan without any quirks.

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

They have learned to manage the things that I have mentioned in my post (learned to play well with penalties rather than to rely on ever more generous quirks).

Wrong. Higher skill players have a greater tendency to be competitive, so they go for the choices that are more powerful.

[Steel Raven]

Question regarding Stealth Armor:

In the fiction, Stealth Armor also conceals a mechs Thermal Signature (thus why a mech runs hotter while it's active, heat is internalized so the armor can remain cool) I like to get some confirmation this will be how it act in game.

Most ECM builds run hot but considering how often we use Thermal in game, it would make Stealth worth the heat during allot of night game. A Cataphract OXP or a Tempest won't light up like a Christmas Tree, the Cicada 3M and Phoenix Hawk 2/1B might actual be able to sneak up on some one without the big glowing silhouette giving them away.

[Carl Vickers]

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

No IS pilot would play a Pretty Baby by choice in anything but the most casual of games., They would take a Mauler MX-90 or King Crab, or heavily quirked meta laser Battlemaster.

Nope to the first mech, nope to the second mech, yes to the third. Your knowledge is sadly lacking, as expected.

[Mcgral18]

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Doesn't seem very balanced. I.S. gets RACs, two special armors, the XL Engines that made them weak/slow in the current game, Light/Heavy/Snub-Nose PPCs, MRMs, Rocket Launchers, and much more to make I.S Tech equal to Clan Tech.

Clans get ATMs and Heavy Lasers. Looking at current Clan LRMs and their extra nerfs of streaming and requirement of being nearly head-on to do damage to mechs I don't think ATM's will be granted any of their normal capabilities and be heavily nerfed like LRMs. Heavy Lasers won't work in MWO for the same reason the Supernova can't run 6x ER Larges in 3 by 3 salvos. Heavy lasers will cap the heat levels with 1 Heavy Large laser is what I am thinking, no way to run two without 30 Double Heatsinks at which point you are wasting payload space.

At the point of the Civil War Tech release the Inner Sphere becomes better equipped than Clan Tech except for the weight and space savings, but I.S. tech is much cooler running and/or more accurate.

I play both factions with two characters so I have no personal bias. Clan Tech is held under a lot of restrictions like fixed equipment and the mechs get few if any Quirks. Do you have a plan for giving the Clan mechs comparable Quirks to Inner Sphere? If not you should start planning what you will change once the two factions are essentially of equal tech ability.

By Mecha Cthulhu, they're still at it

Do you know just HOW COMPLETE [Redacted] LFF is?
It costs the same as cFF armor, 7 slots, but instead of the impressive 20% Clams get, it gets six.
6+6+6 is less than 20
It's more than 3 times worse than cFF for the same cost.

HPPC and LPPC are actually almost identical to the normal PPC
In that, LPPC+LPPC=PPC
PPC+LPPC=HPPC
And so on
Same damage ratios, but you trade a couple Crit slots or Tons


Clam tech is still outright superior, perhaps an exception to RACs, they'll either be worthless , good, or beyond good...those details of implementation meaning everything.
ATMs will be better than LRMs, that's almost a guarantee
SRMs should probably stay better at short range, and direct fire is generally better than Missiles
So, it's a fairly safe assumption to say that Clams with cGauss and cERPPCs will reign supreme, and nothing at the top level will change with FutureTech™ (unless HLasers turn out to be amazing, but that still doesn't change the Poke game)


The Sphere will still be worse than the best Clams. I have no doubt about that.
What you have is some Potato plays, who hasn't even played in the past 4 months. Unless your alt is magically better, sporting superior Clam robots...that doesn't help your case either.
Your quality of play is not a good factor for deciding balance.

Fridge is held aloft by half decent quirks, BTW
As does the Adder

Better quirks than the inferior Spheroid mechs, actually.
The LFE is outright inferior to the cXL, and Clam Battlemechs have no sacrifices to make.

Steel Raven, on 16 March 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Question regarding Stealth Armor:

In the fiction, Stealth Armor also conceals a mechs Thermal Signature (thus why a mech runs hotter while it's active, heat is internalized so the armor can remain cool) I like to get some confirmation this will be how it act in game.

Most ECM builds run hot but considering how often we use Thermal in game, it would make Stealth worth the heat during allot of night game. A Cataphract OXP or a Tempest won't light up like a Christmas Tree, the Cicada 3M and Phoenix Hawk 2/1B might actual be able to sneak up on some one without the big glowing silhouette giving them away.

I certainly hope not, not unless they also add Mag vision


Visibility is absolute [Redacted] on new maps, which makes it downright unpleasant to play without Thermal on at all times.
Then again, no powerful Spheroid mechs really have ECM, so I guess it won't matter much.

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:39 AM.
inappropriate language

[Joshua McEvedy]

Quote

It is entirely possible to have a game that puts balance first, while still being a Battletech/Mechwarrior game.

Not Inner Sphere tech vs. Clan tech.

[Carl Vickers]

Mcgral18, it is happening in other posts too, mostly seems to be clan loyalists, more than likely potato's who dont know the advantage they have had since Clans dropped and continue to have.

Once things even up more, im sure there will be more salt as they find themselves getting pwned by IS players with tech somewhat closer to parity.

[Edward Hazen]

Carl Vickers, on 16 March 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Mcgral18, it is happening in other posts too, mostly seems to be clan loyalists, more than likely potato's who dont know the advantage they have had since Clans dropped and continue to have.

Once things even up more, im sure there will be more salt as they find themselves getting pwned by IS players with tech somewhat closer to parity.

I could just imagine the crying if PGI had given us Plasma Cannons, HAGs and ER Pulse Lasers. So just be happy with all the tech you get that is actually quite good in certain situations.

Edited by S0ulReapr, 16 March 2017 - 04:40 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Id like to see them in too, I also like to see balance and given PGI's history with balance, Im hoping that the weapons they are introducing now are just the start.

My Clan side wants HAG's badly, but balance what they are putting in game first, then bring more in. Im not sure ERpulse will be good, heat and extra duration for that extra range.

BTW, I did snicker to myself when I put PGI and balance in the same sentence.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Carl Vickers, on 16 March 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

Mcgral18, it is happening in other posts too, mostly seems to be clan loyalists, more than likely potato's who dont know the advantage they have had since Clans dropped and continue to have.

Once things even up more, im sure there will be more salt as they find themselves getting pwned by IS players with tech somewhat closer to parity.

I guess that you're missing the irony that you carry a Clan Widowmaker/Wolf bloodname.

[Carl Vickers]

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 March 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

I guess that you're missing the irony that you carry a Clan Widowmaker/Wolf bloodname.

Nope, I played loyalist Clanner for 2 years straight, then got bored so went Merc, actually understanding both sides makes for better mech warriors. Knowing the advantages of boths sides and playing to their strengths makes for better warriors too.

I do like your 'not named clan' bloodname btw.

[Edward Hazen]

Carl Vickers, on 16 March 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

Id like to see them in too, I also like to see balance and given PGI's history with balance, Im hoping that the weapons they are introducing now are just the start.

My Clan side wants HAG's badly, but balance what they are putting in game first, then bring more in. Im not sure ERpulse will be good, heat and extra duration for that extra range.

BTW, I did snicker to myself when I put PGI and balance in the same sentence.

IS Heavy Gauss will be OP if it keeps the 25 damage per shot with almost no heat and IS UACs will be OP too unless the larger ones get burst fire like Clans (yeah, yeah, make the burst a bit tighter than Clan since Clan weapons are smaller / lighter).

[Carl Vickers]

Lol, I dont think the heavy gauss will figure too much into anything. They were only good when using 2 of them and there arent many/any that can do that. Those that can will be slower than a pregnant snail moving a hill backwards and will be easily pwned by anything with speed., im sure they will make a bigger boom than normal gauss too when crit.

As for Is UAC's, they are going to weigh a lot so only the heaviest mechs will be boating, same speed issues.

[Mcgral18]

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

IS Heavy Gauss will be OP if it keeps the 25 damage per shot with almost no heat and IS UACs will be OP too unless the larger ones get burst fire like Clans (yeah, yeah, make the burst a bit tighter than Clan since Clan weapons are smaller / lighter).

HGauss will not be OP, simply because it would NEED to be to ever consider taking one
It also has MASSIVE falloff damage

The 25 damage on TT stops at 180M, by the way
It then drops to 20 damage, for 18 tons (and a STD engine)


I'll take my 30 PP FLD at 660M for 24 tons, thank you very much Clam Battlemechs
I can even bring backup ATMs, at least a dozen tubes.



HGauss Rifles require a STD engine
The reality is, you'd be better off taking a LFE and a normal Gauss Rifle, or UAC
And more than likely, the UACs will be -1 compared to Clam UACs
2 round UAC10 (should be powerful) 3 round UAC20 (could probably use 2 shells)

[Khobai]

Quote

I will not buy anything until the clans add as many weapons! This is not fair. I love clans.

agreed. clans are getting shafted heavily. micro lasers are a [Redacted] joke.

Quote

Mcgral18, it is happening in other posts too, mostly seems to be clan loyalists, more than likely potato's who dont know the advantage they have had since Clans dropped and continue to have.

so because clans have had an advantage in the past, they shouldnt get any new toys to play with?

your logic makes zero sense. clan players get bored of not having new tech too. all your logic accomplishes is forcing clan players to quit in droves because they didnt get anything new worth using. clans shouldnt be punished because paul is bad at balancing.

the logical thing to do would be to give IS and clan an equal amount of new weapons/equipment and then actually balance IS and clan so theyre equal and clans dont have an advantage anymore.

Quote

My Clan side wants HAG's badly

And the worst part is a lot of the new clan stuff is garbage like micro lasers...

Clans should be getting stuff like HAGs, ER pulses, XXLs, Streak LRMs, Chemical Lasers, and a lot of other stuff. A Protomech consumable would be pretty cool too since omnimechs can carry a protomech.

Giving IS all their new stuff, but denying Clans their new stuff, just makes me not want to play Clan.

Edited by draiocht, 16 March 2017 - 09:55 PM.
inappropriate language