676 replies to this topic

[Duvanor]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

agreed. clans are getting shafted heavily. micro lasers are a [Redacted] joke.



so because clans have had an advantage in the past, they shouldnt get any new toys to play with?

your logic makes zero sense. clan players get bored of not having new tech too. all your logic accomplishes is forcing clan players to quit because they didnt get anything new worth using.

the logical thing to do would be to give IS and clan an equal number of new things. and then actually balance IS and clan so theyre equal and clans dont have an advantage anymore.

Okay... so, which of the new IS weapons are outright good in your opinion?

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:40 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Carl Vickers]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

agreed. clans are getting shafted heavily. micro lasers are a [Redacted] joke.



so because clans have had an advantage in the past, they shouldnt get any new toys to play with?

your logic makes zero sense. clan players get bored of not having new tech too. all your logic accomplishes is forcing clan players to quit because they didnt get anything new worth using. clans should not be punished because paul is bad at balancing. that is the worst suggestion ive ever heard.

the logical thing to do would be to give IS and clan an equal number of new things. and then actually balance IS and clan so theyre equal and clans dont have an advantage anymore.

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:41 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

agreed. clans are getting shafted heavily. micro lasers are a [Redacted] joke.


so because clans have had an advantage in the past, they shouldnt get any new toys to play with?

your logic makes zero sense. clan players get bored of not having any new tech too. your logic will just force clan players to quite because they didnt get anything new worth using.

Mostly because they already have all the toys
Most of which remains outright superior (LFE, LGauss, LBx family, LFF, all inferior to present Clam stuff by a large margin)

The power level of the items Clams are getting is easily on part with the Spheroid stuff
isUACs should rightly be more powerful, but might not end up that way
RACs could be solid
MRMs, RLs hit or miss


Micros will likely be [Redacted], but they might surprise us
If they're Energy MGs, that would be unique and potentially less [Redacted]


Heavy Lasers? Worthless or God Tier, maybe balanced
ATMs, better than LRMs and SSRMs. Hopefully worse than SRMs (because 3x the range)



Nothing will be more powerful than the cGauss, so no need to worry

Edited by draiocht, 17 March 2017 - 11:42 AM.
inappropriate language, Quote Clean-Up

[Duvanor]

ATM 12 weights 2 tons less then 3 SSRM6s but has the same damage potential at short range or less damage and superior reach. But they do not lock on as reliable as streaks and I suspect the reload time will be horrible.

[Davegt27]

I have a feeling the Clan propaganda machine is going to kick in real soon

Edited by Davegt27, 16 March 2017 - 05:36 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Mostly because they already have all the toys

but theyre all old toys now. theyre boring. they need new stuff to stay interesting to play.

or theres no reason not to change to IS who are actually getting new stuff.

the issue is that clans need new toys as incentive to continue playing them and not switch to IS.

Quote

Nothing will be more powerful than the cGauss, so no need to worry

except cGauss needs to be balanced. IS vs Clan should be equal.

Just because Paul is incompetent at balancing doesnt mean Clans should suffer when it comes to getting new stuff.

Find someone who can balance IS vs Clan properly. And give Clan their fair share of new tech. Simple.

Quote

The power level of the items Clams are getting is easily on part with the Spheroid stuff

ahahahAHahahahaAHa. NO. garbage micro lasers are not on par with what IS is getting sorry.

Quote

Heavy Lasers? Worthless or God Tier, maybe balanced

heavy lasers will not be god tier lmao. look at their absurd heat. and short range.

cERPPCs have always been better than heavy lasers anyway. theres no reason to believe heavy lasers will compete with cERPPCs when it comes to high heat weapons.

in order for the heavy laser to compete on par with the cerppc it would have to be an absurdly lopsided weapon with very lax ghost heat restrictions. I dont see it happening.

Quote

ATMs, better than LRMs and SSRMs. Hopefully worse than SRMs (because 3x the range)

not really since ATMs cant indirect fire like LRMs.

And they certainly wont be better than SRMs at short range because of the longer cooldown. SRMs will still dominate in their niche.

They might be better than SSRMs. Theyll probably be like SSRMs with longer range but worse tracking.

But we also dont know how good laser AMS is, it could completely shut down ATMs because of their low missile count. ATMs will probably need more hitpoints than normal missiles to resist AMS, otherwise theyll be a joke to shoot down.

Quote

Okay... so, which of the new IS weapons are outright good in your opinion?

rotary ac5 has potential to be ridiculous
HPPC and HGauss could be pretty ridiculous too
LFE will be a huge game changer
Stealth Armor is pretty cool for ecm lights/mediums, cooler than light Tag and microlasers lololol which is what we get for our lights

so yeah... like I said, clans should get HAGs, ER Pulses, Streak LRMs, XXL engines. As long as IS and Clan are balanced equally theres no reason Clans cant enjoy new stuff too.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[Duvanor]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

but theyre old toys now. theyre boring. they need new stuff to stay interesting to play.

or theres no reason not to change to IS who are actually getting new stuff.

I repeat my question. Which of that stuff is really good or better than the clan equipment? Or which of those weapons would you want to use on your clan mechs?

Light Gauss has a horrible ratio of tonnage to damage compared to regular gauss and gives you like 90 meter core range advantage.

Light PPC? Weights 3 times an ER Med Laser. But no burntime. 2 ER Meds will probably be better.

Heavy PPC? 10 tons, 15 damage, minimum range. Clan ER PPC is better, unless that thing does not splash but hit a single zone.

Heavy Gauss was already talked about above. 18 ton weapon, not good at range. Better take 2 Clan Gauss.

Edited by Duvanor, 16 March 2017 - 05:45 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 16 March 2017 - 09:51 PM.
unconstructive

[Zergling]

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I could just imagine the crying if PGI had given us Plasma Cannons, HAGs and ER Pulse Lasers. So just be happy with all the tech you get that is actually quite good in certain situations.

I think many players would have liked to have seen those. I sure would.

S0ulReapr, on 16 March 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

IS Heavy Gauss will be OP if it keeps the 25 damage per shot with almost no heat and IS UACs will be OP too unless the larger ones get burst fire like Clans (yeah, yeah, make the burst a bit tighter than Clan since Clan weapons are smaller / lighter).

IS UACs will almost definitely burst fire like Clan UACs.

As for Heavy Gauss, note that the TT version does just 10 damage from 420 to 600 meters range.

The Heavy Gauss really depends on how PGI want to implement it; lore wise the gun has much lower muzzle velocity than the regular Gauss, so if PGI decides to run with that it might just be a long range AC20.
I honestly favor implementing it without a severe damage drop off and reasonably high projectile velocity (at least 1500), simply because a low velocity gauss with severe damage drop off at long range would be crap and not worth using in MWO.

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

micro lasers are a [Redacted] joke.

So are rocket launchers and light ferro.

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

Chemical Lasers

Those are kinda crap; they only exist in TT to be used by vehicles (as vehicles do not need heat sinks for them), not mechs.

Mechs can use them, but there really isn't any point, as they are generate heat when used by mechs.

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 05:09 PM, said:

the logical thing to do would be to give IS and clan an equal amount of new weapons/equipment

Giving IS all their new stuff, but denying Clans their new stuff, just makes me not want to play Clan.

Problem is, there simply isn't as many new weapons and tech for Clans in TT Battletech as there is for IS.

Sure PGI could have added HAGs, ER Pulse Lasers, Plasma Cannons, Protomech ACs, AP Gauss and Streak LRMs for Clans too, but then there would be practically nothing else in TT that could be added for Clans in the future.

Edited by draiocht, 16 March 2017 - 09:55 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Khobai]

Quote

So are rocket launchers and light ferro.

uh rocket launchers actually arnt all that bad.

1.5 tons to do a one-time extra 20 damage is pretty cool if you ask me.

theres tons of uses for that like lighter mechs bringing rocket launchers so they can attack mechs out of their weight classes.

Quote

Those are kinda crap; they only exist in TT to be used by vehicles (as vehicles do not need heat sinks for them), not mechs.

Mechs can use them, but there really isn't any point, as they are generate heat when used by mechs.

The point is they generate less heat than normal lasers at the expense of using ammo.

It basically turns an energy slot into a ballistic weapon.

That is far more interesting than microlasers will ever be.

Im all for chemical lasers being added instead of garbage I definitely wont ever use.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 06:13 PM.

[Duvanor]

Yeah, you can one shot someone with your rockets (from behind) and be out of ammo or you use two salvos SRMs and pick another target later.

I mean, SRM 4 without Artemis is 2t. That is 0.5 tons more then your rocket 20 launcher and I get to fire 25 salvos compared to your 1. Or 5 times your rockets and mine do more damage per missile than your rockets. The SRM 4 with 1 ton ammo also uses one less critical slot than a rocket 20 launcher and in TT generates less heat but granted, it does less damage also (that one time, the rocket launcher shoots).

Edited by Duvanor, 16 March 2017 - 06:18 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah, you can one shot someone with your rockets (from behind) and be out of ammo or you use two salvos SRMs and pick another target later.

except nothing is stopping you from taking both rockets and SRMs. and then stacking the rocket damage on top of the SRM damage.

and multiple lights taking one rocket launcher each can pop them all off on the same assault mech and take it down pretty quick. that 20 damage will add up.

again rocket launchers really arnt that bad. they arnt great either, but they have some potential at least.

although a lot depends on whether they consume a missile hardpoint or not. I personally think they shouldnt use a hardpoint at all. they should just fire from the location theyre mounted in.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 06:20 PM.

[Cuah Temoc]

This update has saved the game. Thank you PGI

[Duvanor]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

except nothing is stopping you from taking both rockets and SRMs. and then stacking the rocket damage on top of the SRM damage.

and multiple lights taking one rocket launcher each can pop them all off on the same assault mech and take it down pretty quick. that 20 damage will add up.

again rocket launchers really arnt that bad. they arnt great either, but they have some potential at least.

although a lot depends on whether they consume a missile hardpoint or not. I personally think they shouldnt use a hardpoint at all. they should just fire from the location theyre mounted in.

Have you witnessed 2 Jenners with SRMs taking down an assault? If not I can tell you you do not need rockets to do that. A Jenner IIC packs 6 SRM4 without any trouble. That's not one ton of ammo per launcher, but certainly enough to get some kills.

You say rockets are not that bad. Well, not that bad is not that good either. And that's my point here. Most of those weapons are not that bad, but they are not really great as well.

So let's wait and see how everything plays out in the end. ATMs, MRMs and Rotarys will be good probably. Heavy Lasers could be good for mechs with only a few energy slots or low weapon tonnage like Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret or Linebacker.

And micro laser? Yeah, they probably suck. But then we have lights and mediums running just small lasers. Maybe micros will be good for infighting as well.

Edited by Duvanor, 17 March 2017 - 02:45 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Mcgral18, on 16 March 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

LAMS will have no chance of shutting you down unless you bring 4 of them
The source heat is 0.5 and 0.7 Heat per second, while 10 TrueDubs dissipate 2.3 H/s on a mastered mech.
Light Ferro is an absolute joke in comparison to cFF
It's the same cost, but it gives LESS than a third of the benefit. 6% compared to the 20%

Re: LAMS not shutting you down ... Thank you for bringing your turn-based table top stats into the video game ... very helpful. Any source of heat = lost firepower. Also, you assume that they're not shooting back. (If they're not shooting back, then I win.) Using your stats, if it is constantly firing, then your 2.3 H/s becomes about 1.8 H/s ... enough to sustain fire for approximately one IS LPL. If a constant barrage of missiles is enough to force a Laser-and-LAMS 'mech to both heat throttle and stay behind cover, then it's going to be funny.

Re: Light Ferro ... it won't be the second coming of Endo Steel, but in some edge cases it may mean a slightly larger engine, etc. I agree that most of the time, it won't be worth it.

[Arkhangel]

@Steel: I'd assume it does mean it'd be invisible to Thermal vision. or at least really hard to see, compared to the surroundings, anyways.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 March 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

I've never been called a white knight before, Thank You. .. but seriously dude AMS .... that's the balance point your going with. Not one of my 130 mechs has AMS in it IS or Clan.

it was an example to show the bias towards IS. It is something we should have had from the start & are now getting & it is called "New Technology". Seriously dude.................

Tank, on 16 March 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

One thing I got clear from this thread. If someone whine that Clan tech is not superior to IS - they are just bad pilots that can't utilize it full potential.

Clans have better risk/reward going for them, specially shines if things get more competitive and with teamplay in mind.
Yes, devs continuously mitigated that over time - that is the whole reason why we have them no like in TT!
Too many people just want "I WIN!" button these days.


So munch for "Trueborn" warriors of the Clans...


P.S. I would love to have true Clanners and true power of Clan tech, but will these people in this thread fight with honor? Or 1vs3, or 1vs5. Hell, I would even would add Sibko program/mini tournament where only the best pilots get to pilot Clan tech with limited amount of seats in each Clan.

But over the years I'm convicted that most people just wish for proverbial "I WIN" button.

You are missing the whole point. The very essence of the Clans was better tech vs the IS higher numbers. That is the Clan invasion in a nutshell. When you nerf us from the jump then keep nerfing us while buffing the IS there none of the precious balance you say you were doing this all for.

Both sides had a handicap, for the Clans it was boots on the ground, for the IS it was tech. Both sides used their strengths to their advantage.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 16 March 2017 - 07:39 PM.

[Justin Wolf]

Sooo are the Jags going to be gone? What sort of impact will this have on Faction play? Will it be Wolf and Lyrans Vs the rest of the IS? Or will it just be the same faction play with time current weapons and gear? Annnd will Clan drop weight go back up with the balancing of tech?

[Carl Vickers]

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 March 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

it was an example to show the bias towards IS. It is something we should have had from the start & are now getting & it is called "New Technology". Seriously dude.................




You are missing the whole point. The very essence of the Clans was better tech vs the IS higher numbers. That is the Clan invasion in a nutshell. When you nerf us from the jump then keep nerfing us while buffing the IS there none of the precious balance you say you were doing this all for.

Both sides had a handicap, for the Clans it was boots on the ground, for the IS it was tech. Both sides used their strengths to their advantage.

This is a game based on BT, not TT so there must be balance. If you cant get that into your head go back to TT.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 16 March 2017 - 07:58 PM.

[Duvanor]

We could probably balance Clan vs IS in Faction Play by lower numbers on the Clan side. But that leaves Quickplay utterly broken unless every Quickplay match has one Clan and one IS team. Otherwise the team with more Clan Mechs wins and IS Mechs will become extinct in Quickplay.