676 replies to this topic

[Fox the Apprentice]

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 March 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

And responses like that are exactly why the Clan players are being driven off. Good luck fighting with yourself.

I'd gladly fight IS vs IS or Clan vs Clan. Now if only we could have a civil war update...

mad kat, on 15 March 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

Seriously PGI just shelve the skill tree indefinitely and concentrate on this. This is probably the most significant thing to do with balance (that bloody word again) and the game experience that has come out since the clans.

Do it.

I'm actually looking forward to the skill tree, and am disappointed it's been delayed so long.

Joshua McEvedy, on 16 March 2017 - 02:47 AM, said:

Without lore, there is no point to the game.

Without balance, there's no game (unless a PvE element is created).

MechB Kotare, on 28 March 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

Cool. Any idea what is the largest engine it can mount?

https://mwomercs.com/civil-war
Scroll to bottom, use tabs for your mech of choice.

[Sniper09121986]

Fox the Apprentice, on 06 April 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Without balance, there's no game (unless a PvE element is created).

Sniper09121986, on 04 April 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

This is what I say every time the tech advance conversation starts. First, game balance is relative. There is no statistical point at which all the weapon systems will be "balanced", because everybody has their own ideas of said balance and because there will always be the meta specialists that will abuse the living heck out of any kind of game system (AC/40 Jagers, anyone?), thus nullifying said balance. Second, game balance is transient. New mechs will have their impact at the balance as they appear (and appear they shall, quiaff?), so that fact alone nullifies the current balance and forces rebalancing.

TL;DR - wait for official in-depth write-up on the new stuff, whine some more just to keep up the sick tradition, then wait for the release, test it, test it again and then test some more and then determine where to go from there. Heavy smalls and micro lasers appear DOA already for instance, so maybe they will come up with something for them.

[Y E O N N E]

If there's something to be abused, balance was never achieved.

[Summoner6]

Just dump all the tech from the universe then balance it all. Is it really that hard? IS gets all their new toys and so does clan. IS will still have quirks for balances sake and that's never going to go away since Clan tech is lighter and has less space.

Things missing on the Clan's side of tech coming:
ER pulse lasers - Seriously surprised this wasn't there, since it was available in 3057.
Streak LRM's - Again, surprised. Same year 3057 availability too
Heavy and ER flamers
HAG's - Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles. Mmm doesn't roll of the tongue but neither does the giblets of infantry
Arrow IV missile System...
Extended LRM's - Laser AMS comes in this year but ER LRM's don't?
Coolant pods - Hot mech? Add one or two of these..

Also tech missing for IS:
MML's - (Multi-missile launchers) Effectively ATM's but with less punch and less missiles and no HE ammo type.
X - Pulse lasers - Again surprised since its 3057.. I'm sensing a trend here..
Arrow IV missile System - Should have already been implemented Lonnnnnng ago
Coolant pods - Get a third use of coolant if your willing to pay the tonnage and space for it
HAC's - (Hyper Velocity Auto Cannons) Longer Range AC's but more weight and space not to mention its ammo takes up more space

Just give all the tech that there is available and balance it. Taking bits and pieces here and there wont magically balance the game, since if you ever intend to bring these pieces of tech into the game (and you bloody well should) your going to have to re-balance the game again. PGI will still need to add or take away quirks to IS and clan mechs to balance them. That will NEVER change.

Also what about different armour types? Reactive and Reflective. They were both available for IS and Clans.. Furthermore it will be interesting to see how PGI will handle the ATM's. Theoretically you should be able to load different missile types and the launcher should be able to fire them as required by the software related to the missile type. Be that ER missiles (LRM's) Standard (SRM's) or HE with shorter range then SMR's (3 damage per missile). If you can indeed code different types of missiles and thus ammo types. Could we see inferno, HE and Swarm variants of Rocket Launcher and LRM ammo types for both IS and clans? Further more to the point could we swap ammo on the fly rechambering our AC/LBX/Missile hardpoints for different ammo types? Thus allowing LBX cannons to carry standard and Cluster ammunition (cluster with more crit chance but less damage) And AC's with AP or depleted uranium rounds 'normal' rounds and HE for more cockpit shake and crit chance?

As a clan player I'm a little disappointed in the lack of tech were getting. Since if you look at it clans are getting 5 bits of tech (argue-ably 2) to IS 7-8 (you may not count Light ferro) I don't either. And when you have a wee look you see all the **** that's not being implemented because.. 'reasons'. Will be looking forward to the drop of tech, which hopefully doesn't go the way of the tech tree.

Edited by Summoner6, 10 April 2017 - 12:39 AM.

[Athom83]

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

ER pulse lasers - Seriously surprised this wasn't there, since it was available in 3057.

No, production stopped before it truly began because of that Refusal War bull****ery.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Streak LRM's - Again, surprised. Same year 3057 availability too

As experimental tech. PGI is not doing experimental tech.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Heavy and ER flamers

At the vey end of the timejump. If we went 1 year later than yes.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

HAG's - Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles. Mmm doesn't roll of the tongue but neither does the giblets of infantry

Same as above, not going far enough in the jump.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Arrow IV missile System...

They are not doing artillery systems until an overhaul of mechanics at an unspecified later date.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Extended LRM's - Laser AMS comes in this year but ER LRM's don't?

They were experimental until 3080.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Coolant pods - Hot mech? Add one or two of these..

The Coolshot consumables are coolant pods.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

MML's - (Multi-missile launchers) Effectively ATM's but with less punch and less missiles and no HE ammo type.

Not going far enough in the jump.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

X - Pulse lasers - Again surprised since its 3057.. I'm sensing a trend here..

Research started in 3055, but they didn't hit markets until 3078. The research/production of them was interupted by the Civil War.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Arrow IV missile System - Should have already been implemented Lonnnnnng ago

Same as Clan Arrow IVs, see above.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Coolant pods - Get a third use of coolant if your willing to pay the tonnage and space for it

They are Coolshot consumables.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

HAC's - (Hyper Velocity Auto Cannons) Longer Range AC's but more weight and space not to mention its ammo takes up more space

They were experimental. PGI doesn't do experimental techs. They may add them later when they add all "experimental" techs which will have a large mark-up.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Also what about different armour types? Reactive and Reflective. They were both available for IS and Clans..

Mass production started 3081

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Furthermore it will be interesting to see how PGI will handle the ATM's. Theoretically you should be able to load different missile types and the launcher should be able to fire them as required by the software related to the missile type.

They're combining all the ammos into one. 3 damage at srm range, 1 at LRM range, 2 at MRM range.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Further more to the point could we swap ammo on the fly rechambering our AC/LBX/Missile hardpoints for different ammo types? Thus allowing LBX cannons to carry standard and Cluster ammunition (cluster with more crit chance but less damage) And AC's with AP or depleted uranium rounds 'normal' rounds and HE for more cockpit shake and crit chance?

Then it makes standard ACs useless.

Summoner6, on 09 April 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

As a clan player I'm a little disappointed in the lack of tech were getting. Since if you look at it clans are getting 5 bits of tech (argue-ably 2) to IS 7-8 (you may not count Light ferro) I don't either. And when you have a wee look you see all the **** that's not being implemented because.. 'reasons'. Will be looking forward to the drop of tech, which hopefully doesn't go the way of the tech tree.

I'm pretty happy with the tech we are getting. Although, I was raised to be thankful for what I am gifted and not to cry for more. And most of what the IS is getting is hand-me-downs from the clans.

[Eyepop]

Wow! Only wish that there were XXL Engines and XL Gyros on this list (light pilots unite!), but still a really nice list! I wonder how those Heavy Machine Guns will work on an Arrow...

Edited by Eyepop, 10 April 2017 - 01:27 PM.

[Summoner6]

Athom83, on 10 April 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

I'm pretty happy with the tech we are getting. Although, I was raised to be thankful for what I am gifted and not to cry for more. And most of what the IS is getting is hand-me-downs from the clans.

Whats with all the hostility in this forum? Am I sharing this comment space with children? - Cry for more? Being disappointed in the amount of tech a clanners are getting is not crying. Go look up bigotry mate - Wait ill save you the effort its - intolerance towards those who hold different opinions of oneself - You show it perfectly.

When you said 'And most of what the IS is getting is hand-me-downs from the clans.' Is false and you know it. There are five (or six if you count the Light engine being a attempted model off Clan XL engines) bits of tech that have been reversed engineered from clans. Those being: - LBX auto cannons, UAC's, ER lasers, Streaks and targeting computers. Compared to the 7 (or 8 if you count light ferro) new and unique tech that IS is getting. Seven being higher then five is not most of the tech.

I have checked alot of your claims and most are true and I retract my statments about being more tech for Clanners then there actually is. With exceptions to - Heavy flamers and ER flamers. Both were available during 3067:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Flamer
http://www.sarna.net...ed_Range_Flamer
End of the year or not the tech is in that year and PGI are not specifying months.. the tech is there to be implemented and it is not for unknown reasons.

[Y E O N N E]

LFE, Light FF, UACs, LB-X, ER Lasers, and MRMs all have Clan analogues. The new PPCs enable the IS to approach the 50 FLD the Clans get by leaning more on PPCs rather than Gauss, with the drawbacks that go along with that (heat, minimum range, lower projectile velocity). Theoretically, RACs allow the IS to emulate the output from massed Clan UACs using less weapons but with similar weight and slot consumption.

More or less, all of the IS gear takes the optimized Clan version and splits it into two more more weapons that give you part of the advantage the Clan one has, but not all of it.

The actual unique capabilities the IS are getting are essentially restricted to whatever the Rocket Launchers and Stealth Armor allow, while with the Clans it's Heavy Lasers and Light TAG. You could say it's basically gimmick vs. gimmick. All of it depends on PGI's specific implementation.

[Athom83]

Summoner6, on 10 April 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

Whats with all the hostility in this forum? Am I sharing this comment space with children? - Cry for more? Being disappointed in the amount of tech a clanners are getting is not crying. Go look up bigotry mate - Wait ill save you the effort its - intolerance towards those who hold different opinions of oneself - You show it perfectly.

I was providing a reasonable argument against someone who was being hostile because he wasn't getting what he wanted.

Summoner6, on 10 April 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

When you said 'And most of what the IS is getting is hand-me-downs from the clans.' Is false and you know it. There are five (or six if you count the Light engine being a attempted model off Clan XL engines) bits of tech that have been reversed engineered from clans. Those being: - LBX auto cannons, UAC's, ER lasers, Streaks and targeting computers. Compared to the 7 (or 8 if you count light ferro) new and unique tech that IS is getting. Seven being higher then five is not most of the tech.

The only things the IS is getting that doesn't have a Clan version in game or coming is the L/Sn PPC, L/H Gauss, RACs, and Rocket Launchers. Everything else is an inferior version to what the Clan already has or is getting.

Summoner6, on 10 April 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

I have checked alot of your claims and most are true and I retract my statments about being more tech for Clanners then there actually is. With exceptions to - Heavy flamers and ER flamers. Both were available during 3067:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Flamer
http://www.sarna.net...ed_Range_Flamer
End of the year or not the tech is in that year and PGI are not specifying months.. the tech is there to be implemented and it is not for unknown reasons.

You think we will start off at the very end of the Civil War? I don't. I think we will be starting around 3064, or somewhere around there. They may start incrementing time an extra month or so at a time every patch, so in a year or so we may get to 3067 and they may add some of those extra weapons.

[Zergling]

Athom83, on 11 April 2017 - 04:04 AM, said:

You think we will start off at the very end of the Civil War? I don't. I think we will be starting around 3064, or somewhere around there. They may start incrementing time an extra month or so at a time every patch, so in a year or so we may get to 3067 and they may add some of those extra weapons.

Civil War mechs have the following tech in their stock variants, which means they will be added in July when those mechs are released, unless PGI decides to change those variants.

IS ER Medium Laser
IS ER Small Laser
IS Light PPC
IS Snub-Nosed PPC
IS LBX2
IS UAC2
IS RAC2
IS RAC5
IS Heavy Machinegun
IS Streak SRM4
IS Streak SRM6
IS Light Fusion Engine
IS Light Ferro Fibrous

Clan Heavy Medium Laser
Clan Heavy Machinegun
Clan ATM6
Clan ATM9
Clan Light Active Probe

Edited by Zergling, 11 April 2017 - 04:25 AM.

[johnwolf]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 April 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

LFE, Light FF, UACs, LB-X, ER Lasers, and MRMs all have Clan analogues. The new PPCs enable the IS to approach the 50 FLD the Clans get by leaning more on PPCs rather than Gauss, with the drawbacks that go along with that (heat, minimum range, lower projectile velocity). Theoretically, RACs allow the IS to emulate the output from massed Clan UACs using less weapons but with similar weight and slot consumption.

More or less, all of the IS gear takes the optimized Clan version and splits it into two more more weapons that give you part of the advantage the Clan one has, but not all of it.

The actual unique capabilities the IS are getting are essentially restricted to whatever the Rocket Launchers and Stealth Armor allow, while with the Clans it's Heavy Lasers and Light TAG. You could say it's basically gimmick vs. gimmick. All of it depends on PGI's specific implementation.

MRMs? i don't see MRMs anywhere in the clan. Unless you're talking about the ATMs.....which really can't compare to the output MRMS will have. While the ATMs has Quality, MRMs have Quanity....which makes them their own Beast to deal with. Which means Clan really doesn't have an Analog to MRMs.

[Y E O N N E]

johnwolf, on 11 April 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

MRMs? i don't see MRMs anywhere in the clan. Unless you're talking about the ATMs.....which really can't compare to the output MRMS will have. While the ATMs has Quality, MRMs have Quanity....which makes them their own Beast to deal with. Which means Clan really doesn't have an Analog to MRMs.

The ATMs are still the Clan analogue to the MRMs for two reasons:

1. Damage per missile at mid-range is 2, meaning you need half as many for the same impact, and up close they deal 3, meaning you need only a third of the missiles for the same impact.

2. Weight per launcher is stacked heavily against MRMs. An ATM-9 is 5 tons, an MRM 20 is 7 tons. Combine with cXL, Clan Endo, and Clan Ferro, and the ATM wins overall for having a viable missile platform with a high volume of fire.

[Zergling]

johnwolf, on 11 April 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

MRMs? i don't see MRMs anywhere in the clan. Unless you're talking about the ATMs.....which really can't compare to the output MRMS will have. While the ATMs has Quality, MRMs have Quanity....which makes them their own Beast to deal with. Which means Clan really doesn't have an Analog to MRMs.

ATM12 with HE ammo doing 3 damage per missile = 36 damage output per salvo
MRM40 with 1 damage per missile = 40 damage output per salvo

MRM40 is 12 tons, 7 slots, 6 shots per ton of ammo, 12 heat
ATM12 is 7 tons, 5 slots, 5 shots per ton of ammo, 8 heat

Even at mid-range where the ATMs are only doing 2 damage per missile, they are still (slightly) more tonnage efficient.

[I cant want to]

mrm is unguided and the spread is likely to be large

atm has integrated artemis

[johnwolf]

Zergling, on 11 April 2017 - 10:16 PM, said:

ATM12 with HE ammo doing 3 damage per missile = 36 damage output per salvo
MRM40 with 1 damage per missile = 40 damage output per salvo

MRM40 is 12 tons, 7 slots, 6 shots per ton of ammo, 12 heat
ATM12 is 7 tons, 5 slots, 5 shots per ton of ammo, 8 heat

Even at mid-range where the ATMs are only doing 2 damage per missile, they are still (slightly) more tonnage efficient.

Huh, didn't know that. that being said, MRM 40 isn't what you'd use anyway, it's kind of one of those OVER KILL options. A MRM 20 or an MRM 30 would be much more efficient. while you'd lose the close range war with ATM they match it in the mid range. the MRM 20 while doing less damage is 7 tons and 3 slots producing 6 heat for 4 less damage which isn't that much less. and MRM 30 is 10 tons, 5 slots and 10 heat for 6 more damage. You wouldn't use a 40 when a 30 can match it anyway. that being said, this will be a fun weapon XD.

[Zergling]

johnwolf, on 12 April 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

that being said, this will be a fun weapon XD.

Oh I'm sure hoping the MRMs will be fun, same with the ATMs, because right now I hate how limited the options for missile hardpoints are.

There's either LRMs which suck, or SRMs that are limited to brawling.

[Athom83]

Zergling, on 12 April 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Oh I'm sure hoping the MRMs will be fun, same with the ATMs, because right now I hate how limited the options for missile hardpoints are.

I'm hoping the Mauler with twin MRM40 ears would be really fun . That being said, I did just recently sell mine to buy another mech as I needed the mechbay. RIP Mauler-2P, I will remember you fondly.

[Fox the Apprentice]

Zergling, on 12 April 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Oh I'm sure hoping the MRMs will be fun, same with the ATMs, because right now I hate how limited the options for missile hardpoints are.

There's either LRMs which suck, or SRMs that are limited to brawling.

This x1000

[Jman5]

So I've finally gotten around to digging through the new tech that's coming in July and it seems like we're in for one hell of a power creep.

It just seems like damage is going to go through the roof and yet I see very little in the way of defensive buffs. Light Engine makes mechs currently using XL engines more survivable, but for players running standard engines they're just going to switch to Light engine and gain all that tonnage for more guns. So it's a double edged sword.

Will Dual Heavy Gauss be a thing? What about Dual Heavy Gauss + Heavy PPC? Or Heavy Gauss + 2 Heavy PPC? Could a big assault be slinging around 80 pinpoint alphas?

This whole thing is worrisome. Particularly for Light and Medium Pilots that can't really take that kind of punishment.

[Khobai]

Quote

...seriously, can you guys not understand the line of thought?

cERML has:

• More Dam/tick
  
• More Range
  
• More DPS
  
• Marginally less Dam/heat

isML has nothing of note

ISML has better beam duration, better heat efficiency, and better crit health. I wouldnt say it has nothing of note.

But the ISERML is going to replace the ISML anyway. The ISML is one of those weapons that just cant really be saved.

Quote

Will Dual Heavy Gauss be a thing?

only if heavy gauss has splash damage, thats only way it can be balanced as is. otherwise there will probably be a limit of charging one heavy gauss at a time. I suppose there could also be an absolutely massive ghost heat penalty for firing two heavy gauss together. but there will have to be something in place to stop dual heavy gauss.

they dont let you fire dual AC20 without the ghost heat spike so they definitely wont allow dual gauss to do 50 PPFLD with next to no heat. that would be completely broken since it could easily be paired with other energy weapons for a massive pinpoint alpha.

Quote

Oh I'm sure hoping the MRMs will be fun, same with the ATMs, because right now I hate how limited the options for missile hardpoints are.

Unless ECM super stealth is removed, ATMs will suffer the same fate as LRMs. Relegated to being useless by the 1.5 ton magic jesus box.

As long as ECM grants super bubble stealth im gonna have to say MRM > ATM

Edited by Khobai, 16 April 2017 - 06:35 PM.