95 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

El Bandito, on 17 March 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'll bet a mech pack against you that MCII will be far more competitive than the Anni, but I doubt you will take it.

Sure, I won't mind a friendly bet. Although extreme economic situations have left me a bit under the weather due to the passing of family relatives, 4th surgery, etc. (you know the drill). Even if I did have money I do not quite have a credit card or so and transferring cash overseas would require me to know your location which I doubt you would let a random online to know and I won't agree to that for your sake.

So I do have a few puzzle games on steam that I already have and/or have spare. Approximately 17 dollars US in total between the two games if you are interested in puzzle games. (never played the second but have played the first). However I do feel that those may not interest you. I do have a lot of steam trading cards that might interest you.
I am also a novice digital artist who works usually with retro-ish stuff like mods for games like FTL, HS:A, etc. I could possibly draw you an average attempt of a Mad Cat Mk II or what ever Mech' that may please you (I assume Battlemaster?) if you would appreciate artwork to be used in this friendly bet... however there is the whole discussion of how to measure 'competitiveness'... how often the 'Mechs appear in match? how often do they get a high match score?... which would get more match score in the most likely leaderboard events?... would there be a margin of error included like "if they are 100 score from each other we'll say it's a tie". Do we wait a few months after launch to see which Mech remains and which one fades away from the new Mech' hype?
Or would we wait to see which one would be used in competitive play during streams and such or what is more common in Faction play. We should make a clear mark on how we will measure it I assume before we place our bets and make a deal.

But after arranging what the bets shall be and the conditions on how to measure it, sure. I'm in.

[El Bandito]

Nightshade24, on 18 March 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

however there is the whole discussion of how to measure 'competitiveness'... how often the 'Mechs appear in match? how often do they get a high match score?... which would get more match score in the most likely leaderboard events?... would there be a margin of error included like "if they are 100 score from each other we'll say it's a tie". Do we wait a few months after launch to see which Mech remains and which one fades away from the new Mech' hype? Or would we wait to see which one would be used in competitive play during streams and such or what is more common in Faction play. We should make a clear mark on how we will measure it I assume before we place our bets and make a deal.

Which one gets used more in comp play. After all, I did say "competitive".

Nightshade24, on 18 March 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

Sure, I won't mind a friendly bet. Although extreme economic situations have left me a bit under the weather due to the passing of family relatives, 4th surgery, etc. (you know the drill). Even if I did have money I do not quite have a credit card or so and transferring cash overseas would require me to know your location which I doubt you would let a random online to know and I won't agree to that for your sake.

So I do have a few puzzle games on steam that I already have and/or have spare. Approximately 17 dollars US in total between the two games if you are interested in puzzle games. (never played the second but have played the first). However I do feel that those may not interest you. I do have a lot of steam trading cards that might interest you.
I am also a novice digital artist who works usually with retro-ish stuff like mods for games like FTL, HS:A, etc. I could possibly draw you an average attempt of a Mad Cat Mk II or what ever Mech' that may please you (I assume Battlemaster?) if you would appreciate artwork to be used in this friendly bet...

The mechs will not be available until July, though I dunno when they will be used for any major tourney. In case you are not able to pay up, I will accept a mech drawing instead. I'll tell you the details once our bet settles.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2017 - 03:02 AM.

[BurningDesire]

stuffing around with this free banshee, it feels like im playing a slow crappy shadowhawk. It has no CT structure once the armor is gone, a locust farting on it kills it. My 3c cicada is tankier than it, so im at a loss. its no wonder you see bugger all IS assults

[FreeFragUK]

To be honest I like the looks of the Uziel, yes there is the nostalgia value from previous games and also from using it in MWLL more recently but I think it's a nice solid edition which is also iconic for the era.

I'm slightly disappointed with the Annihilator, it's also not one I expected initially but again I can appreciate the choice and it should be an interesting mech as far as gameplay goes. I'd have preferred the Fafnir in truth but I'm sure that it will make an appearance down the line.

It's not all about the meta and stats, people seem to forget that fun and enjoyment are much bigger factors. At the end of the day games are meant to be entertaining and fun. If you're playing MWO from a competitive aspect then yes, these mechs are probably not going to be the highest level competitors and that's ok, there are plenty of other options on the cards but from the aspect of implementing new mechs and toys for the playerbase, I'm sure these will be welcome additions.

Edited by FreeFragUK, 18 March 2017 - 03:56 AM.

[Dogstar]

Also - Cougar has ECM and jump jets whereas both the Assassin and Javelin variants with ECM are also the only variants _without_ jump jets

Bias much?

Because I'd like to know why IS can't have ECM with jump jets* when the clans can




*I know we do have a couple of mechs with both but they have crappy hardpoints

Edited by Dogstar, 18 March 2017 - 04:12 AM.

[El Bandito]

FreeFragUK, on 18 March 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

It's not all about the meta and stats, people seem to forget that fun and enjoyment are much bigger factors. At the end of the day games are meant to be entertaining and fun. If you're playing MWO from a competitive aspect then yes, these mechs are probably not going to be the highest level competitors and that's ok, there are plenty of other options on the cards but from the aspect of implementing new mechs and toys for the playerbase, I'm sure these will be welcome additions.

What is wrong with some of you people, who think meta mechs are anti-fun? Doing well in itself is fun for many. As I said before:

El Bandito, on 13 March 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

Some people do have fun piloting competitive mechs. Shocking, I know.

Besides, if the IS tech wasn't so obviously inferior than that of Clans, I probably wouldn't be making this thread. A game is more fun when both sides are balanced.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 March 2017 - 04:18 AM.

[FLG 01]

FreeFragUK, on 18 March 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

To be honest I like the looks of the Uziel, yes there is the nostalgia value from previous games and also from using it in MWLL more recently but I think it's a nice solid edition which is also iconic for the era.

No, ffs, it is not! It is not even mentioned once in a dozen Civel War-era novels. Not once. The TRO-entry almost mocks the Mech.

[FreeFragUK]

@Dogstar: The Assassin actually has JJ's on the ECM variants and as far as the Javelin goes, the variant which has ECM is a lore/TRO variant which is why it doesn't have both ECM and JJ's. I fail to see bias.

@El Bandito: I never said that meta mechs are "anti-fun" I stated that they aren't the be all and end all. This implies that there are other options on the table but people often become fixated on the meta. As far as IS Tech vs Clan Tech goes, yes there are balance issues but this largely stems from the source material and the fact that a key aspect of balance in the source material was that IS tended to bring bigger numbers to the field.

@FLG 01: The Uziel has a following and has become iconic as a result of various games and it is an easily identifiable mech which many MW fans instantly recognise. Furthermore your assertion that the TRO entry almost mocks the mech couldn't be further from the truth, it states that while the mech isn't groundbreaking it's very good at the job it's intended for and was in very high demand during the defence of Hespersus II.

Edited by FreeFragUK, 18 March 2017 - 04:52 AM.

[FLG 01]

FreeFragUK, on 18 March 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

@FLG 01: The Uziel has a following and has become iconic as a result of various games and it is an easily identifiable mech which many MW fans instantly recognise.

"Iconic" is highly subjective. I know it is a Mech for MW:4-fanboys, and that is fine for you, but again: you said it was iconic for the era, yet it is absent from the (substantial) narration of the era. The great invisible, ignored icon?

FreeFragUK, on 18 March 2017 - 04:45 AM, said:

Furthermore your assertion that the TRO entry almost mocks the mech couldn't be further from the truth, it states that while the mech isn't groundbreaking it's very good at the job it's intended for and was in very high demand during the defence of Hespersus II.

It was in demand, because every Mech was in demand then and Furillo was only two jumps away. You also left out the sentence right before the mention of the 15th Battle of Hesperus, where it is says the Uziel is "still looked down upon by many within both the LAAF and Defiance". The reference to the prominent media news-coverage is a thinly veiled reference to MW:4. (Btw., there is a novel detailing this battle in grueling detail. Guess which Mech is missing there?)
Also the Deployment-section notes a distribution to the Regulars "more by accident than by intention".

If that reads like an icon to you...

[FreeFragUK]

I'll agree that whether or not something is iconic is highly subjective and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people would agree.

Under these circumstances though you openly admit that the Uziel is iconic to MW4 and fans of the game, furthermore MW4 is based during the Civil War ergo surely this renders it an iconic mech for the era?

As far as the mocking goes, the references made are hardly mocking. There are many mechs within the BattleTech universe which are looked down upon by various regiments or entire sections of particular armed forces. This doesn't mean that they are "mocked".

As far as the various novels go, my focus has always been with the TT and the various MechWarrior games. I've played a fair few rounds of the TT where the choice for mediums within an IS lance in the Civil War era has been the Uziel. Does this make it iconic? Arguably not, however, it is a familiar mech.

Given this is becoming massively off topic to say the least I'd suggest agreeing to disagree in the interests of avoiding further derailment.

[Novakaine]

Clan Nits - funny.

[FLG 01]

FreeFragUK, on 18 March 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Spoiler

I'll agree that whether or not something is iconic is highly subjective and I'd hazard a guess that the majority of people would agree.

Under these circumstances though you openly admit that the Uziel is iconic to MW4 and fans of the game, furthermore MW4 is based during the Civil War ergo surely this renders it an iconic mech for the era?

As far as the mocking goes, the references made are hardly mocking. There are many mechs within the BattleTech universe which are looked down upon by various regiments or entire sections of particular armed forces. This doesn't mean that they are "mocked".

As far as the various novels go, my focus has always been with the TT and the various MechWarrior games. I've played a fair few rounds of the TT where the choice for mediums within an IS lance in the Civil War era has been the Uziel. Does this make it iconic? Arguably not, however, it is a familiar mech.

Given this is becoming massively off topic to say the least I'd suggest agreeing to disagree in the interests of avoiding further derailment.

I acknowledge that for some every Mech in MW:4 is somehow "iconic", effectively abusing a term which should be reserved for Mechs of the calibre of an Atlas or a Mad Cat, but that does not mean I agree with ignoring the vast narration of the FCCW (the best covered conflict, not just in novels) in which the Uziel is at best a footnote. And the implications of the TRO-entry noting the prominent media coverage of the Mech despite its poor reception by the LAAF are rather obvious.

But fine, we are getting the Mech anyway, many people will be happy with it (until they actually pilot it in battle) and we have to deal with yet another nostalgia-driven decision.

As far as performance goes, i.e. the topic of the thread, I do not see anything of note here. And I am a passionate medium driver, fan of Defiance and Steiner.
This is a Mech I should be loving, but with its average hardpoints and bad geometry, it is definitely far from the best medium Mech we could have gotten.

[Zordicron]

I don't agree. Mostly because the Cougar will go extinct a month or so after release. Its a reboxed Kitfox/Adder. Clan or not a 80kph or so light mech is still a 80kph light mech.

Uziel... I reserve judgement until I see hitbox stuff. If PGI can effectively get some of the ordinary fire to transfer more to leg hitboxes by adjusting where the torsos vs legs are etc it might be fine. I don;t think too many were thinking it would be the new meta medium regardless. Uziel is put there to fuel nostalgia buys. Plus, it might poptart pretty decently, maybe.

Anni... well, itf people could make facesplat DWF work back when, there shouldn't be much trouble with a facesplat Anni. 6 ballistics, and being spread to both torsos and arms means they are actually only restricted by tonnage for a change- the Anni will have several amusing loadouts. The whole untying torso agility etc from engine size is almost a mandatory change for the Anni to function IMO however. Still, if it gets Atlas durability and agility for twisting, it will end up being a simple trade of worse dmg spread as exchange for redonk firepower choices. NASCAR gameplay will make people stop playing it though.

Compare those to the Madmk2. Let's not fool ourselves, Madmk2 is the "summer blockbuster" mech PGI is banking on to pay the bills till the end of the year, possibly also partly fund other projects. Only a fool would think sales numbers won't be through the roof on this mech. And because of this- we can see a bump in sales of the Cougar also, because people will want that shiny cockpit item to put in their "new awesome mark2". PGI could balance it pretty easy IMO through hitbox design, but they won;t because lol it's the freegin money printer for the next significant amount of time. Expect revisions to it only after a new money bag machine is announced.


So there really isn't much debate here, you have two IS mechs that are going to be in the middle of the pack(so, "balanced" for Russ) but likely pigeon holed into specific gameplay methods, and then one "IMA MAKE BANK" clan mech likely to be meta for some time, and a throw away tag along light put in because people have been asking for it and people will buy it to get a shiny, basically Cougar has been loosely bundled with MK2 as a strategic sales thing.

Anything looks lackluster next to a 90 ton Timberwolf. Even the other clan mech. You can't fault PGI for releasing it's summer blockbuster to pay the bills.

[MacClearly]

I will make the Uziel work like I did with the Bushies, with sheer love and adoration.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

Had the Warhammer not had its structure quirks reduced and UAC5 heat not been increased, the PPC-UAC5 -6R was a great PPFLD + DPS push heavy mech, occupying a different role than the Night Gyr.

EDIT: WOW after reading back through the back and forth, ZUUL, you totally missed the context, which was:

"Heavy PPC has crap range"

"No it doesn't, 540m is fine... references WHM-6R usage in MWOWC as why 540 m is enough range"

Has nothing to do with trying to argue the Warhammer is a great mech now or anything, so not sure why you came in screaming about that.

because his example was terrible... hence why I was pointing out WHY his example was terrible, I do not disagree with the premise about 540m range but there are caveats that his example completely ignores. Mainly that the range is still bad in the meta comp tryhard level (the inferior copycat potatos that do not have the twitch skill necessary to even do it effectively) & most importantly to me since I would actually like to play CW again someday, it does nothing to move the needle on Invasion Maps for the huge Clan-IS imbalance that currently exists.

[Dogstar]

@FreeFrag Re: Assassin - oops my bad, I was looking on the hardpoint chart at the bottom of the store page which usually lists jump jets but doesn't for the Assassin

IS still lacks ECM+JJ mechs overall though

Edited by Dogstar, 18 March 2017 - 07:28 AM.