101 replies to this topic

[Miodog]

Thank you Mcgral18 for the write up.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimax, on 15 March 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Speaking, of, does anyone have a handy conversion chart for MWO engine weights vs. TT engine weights?

https://www.reddit.c...hts_in_mwo_for/

There's a list of LFE weights, but you can check out SSW or any other traditional TT mech builder. It lists out the components.
Cockpit+Gyro+Engine make up the MWO weight

[Magnus Santini]

Adding my thanks to McGral for analyzing all these new weapons which are not exactly self-explanatory to non TT players.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 14 March 2017 - 10:49 PM, said:

It has come
The FutureTech™ announcement we've been waiting for
https://mwomercs.com/civil-war-update

It delivered most of what we'd expected, with a handful of items missing, and some happy surprises

How about we have a in depth look at which might have an impact on the game, base entirely on wild speculation!

Spheroid LBx family:

Spoiler

Shite
We know this, the LBx as a weapon is generally inferior to the single shot capabilities of the normal ACs, especially since the LB10x is the only one who is lighter.

No effect on popular builds without a LBx revamp

Spheroid UAC family:

Spoiler

Potential

They will likely still have a burst, but follow the UAC5 VS cUAC5 mentality= -1 shell to the burst
That is, a 2 shot UAC10 and a 3 shot UAC20

As a previously avid UAC10 user, I can say that 3 round bursts are reasonable to land at 950M/s
As for the 650 M/s Bowling Balls...well, you won't be using them at range!

They may end up different, but I feel this would be a solid starting place, and they would up the potential damage up for the Spheroid chassis.

Spheroid ER laser family:

Spoiler

Implementation Dependant

The isERML could be fantastic mid range skirmish weapon...or it could be hot garbage


The isSL is already most of the way to the isERSL, so there's a severe issue there. Same heat, same range, same damage...bloody hell, we ALREADY HAVE AN isERSL!


SL fudging aside, I expect the isERML to have 2x extended damage falloff, and to potentially exceed the cERML max range, but not damage. Heat and damage are likely to remain at 5 (to much chagrin)

Spheroid Streak family:

Spoiler

Meh

We know exactly what to expect here, functionally. F&F, 270M range, 3 & 4.5 tons
Likely better cooldowns than their Clam counterparts, potentially better velocity
Good at decimating Lights, and giving other targets a nice Damage Bukkacake

Spheroid Gauss family:

Spoiler

Implementation Dependent

hGauss requires a STD engine
STD engines are shite
This is an issue of Opportunity Cost, in what you sacrifice in being able to take a Heavy Gauss Rifle
At 18 tons and 11 Crits, very few things could take it effectively, let alone two
25 damage at 180M is quite impressive, but the falloff is heavier than most weapons.
25/20/10
6/13/20

That is, 0 damage at 600M, 20 until 390M, 25 for 0-180M
With the weight savings of a XL or LFE, you could instead get some of the way towards a second Gauss Rifle, for 30 damage at 660M.
But, if the Charge isn't any longer, and it has a fair damage falloff, it could be...a silly choice for silly people, but not a bad choice.
It hurts robots, after all.


Light Gauss, while Long Range, has poor damage.
12 tons (AC10, cGauss)
8 damage
750 Optimal range

Honestly...I can't help but feel this should have 3x max range (or, maybe 2.5, to 1875M)
Maybe even Chargeless, but that can be iterated on

It's a very heavy tonnage cost for very little damage.
Heck...maybe 3 KM/s velocity? Or 2500, to at least have a range accuracy bonus over the Gauss Rifle, if we leave it with a charge

This one might need damage fudging, or a lesser cooldown

Spheroid Rotary AC family

Spoiler

DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA
Solid potential

RAC5 at
10 tons
6 Slots
630M range
1 heat per 5 damage


PGI describes it as a typical Wind up Minigun, but also Wind Down...
Not sure about that second part. Bullets keep flying as you release the trigger?

I do not expect it to frontload 5 damage in a rapid fashion, but more smaller rounds. Not unlike a cAC, but more of a bullet hose.


The wording may allow for a jam-less burst if you don't exceed the time, but may also be subject to RNGeesus like our other UACs.


The RAC2 stats are
8 tons
3 Slots
750M Range
1 Heat per 2 damage

I expect the heat to drop, and not to be too much weaker than the RAC5, perhaps just weaker damage shells and otherwise similar performance.


These could certainly make nasty mid range DPS monsters, depending on how cruel RNGeesus is, if he has any say at all

Spheroid and Clam Machine Gun Family

Spoiler

Could be good mediocre

The HMG sacrifices range for damage
The LMG sacrifices damage for range


Both could be useful, actually

If the LMG has a 300-400M range potential, it could supplement Laservomit as random Crit support when poking for a LOLpha. I mean, it's free damage, why not?

HMG would likely replace current MGs where applicable, because they're facehugging weapons regardless.


We could see some more significant changes, such as the HMG being poor at Critting, but significantly better against Armor, and vice versa for LMGs, but that's on the Underling.


Clam VS Spheroid MGs follow the typical approach, Clams weighing half as much.

Being a TON apiece for the Spheroid, Lights would probably say no.
At 0.5 tons for Clams, still a possible choice

LMGs are the same tonnage as normal MGs

Spheroid MRM family

Spoiler

Potentially good
Or garbage
PGIplz

10/20/30/40 damage missile launchers
These can maximize direct fire damage PER missile hardpoint, without any need to pay the LRM Taxes

There are many ways to go with these, including
Spread
Velocity
GH limits
Volley Fire

Personally, I would go for the powerful but poor recycle approach
Make them GOOD as mid range direct fire weapons, with solid velocity (to hit at 400M well), decent spread (let's say 3-4-5-5 Spread values, same as a non-Artemis cSRM6 at the highest)
But, add a duration to it, not much, but enough to split the missiles. Otherwise, you risk engaging Shitreg, which is bad with simultaneous explosions. Add a 0.05s delay (same as cLRMs) to fire a set of 5 missiles. That's almost nothing, but should spread the missiles out enough for calculations.

But, the Underling may choose a different approach
What can be said for certain is that it shouldn't be a waste to have a single Missile hardpoint anymore, if you want to take a large MRM launcher.

Rocket Launcher family

Spoiler

Huh?
I didn't expect these

They'll probably be Single Use MRMs, for practical purposes
Maybe more powerful, because of their single use nature, but if you have free tonnage and an empty missile slot...might be worth taking some

They come in 10/15/20 size

Tons
0.5/1/1.5
Crits
1/2/3
Heat
3/4/5

Range is all 360M

If they're given decent Spread and Velocity, might be worth grabbing a few on mechs which otherwise ignore the hardpoints

But, likely best to ignore them if they perform poorly
High unexpected

Spheroid PPC family

Spoiler

Solid

Light PPC obsoletes the isPPC statistically speaking
3 tons
2 Crits
5 Heat

Or, 6 tons 4 Crits for 10 damage, -1 tons +1 Crits
It shares the min range, and max range with the PPC
Almost expecting a 3 GH limit, for 15 damage...but that doesn't sound right


Heavy PPC
15 damage
15 heat
10 tons
4 Crits
540M range
90M Min range

Hm...3 LPPCs for 9 tons, 6 Crits, 15 heat, 15 damage?
Or 1 hPPC for similar results?



I can't help but feel that there's some overlap on these weapons. More than likely a global GH link, so no mixing and matching PPCs in numbers greater than 2.
Velocities may or may not be the same

hPPC allows for a nasty punch for 1 hardpoint, which some mechs greatly need.


Snub Nose also fits in here
Its range profile is different, with a long-short range, which tapers off quickly, but 450M is where it does nothing

It has no Min range, and deals 10 damage.
2 Crits
6 Tons
10 Heat (likely lower in MWO)




PPC family seems to have a lot of overlap, and many similar characteristics when it's combining multiple LPPCs
Should be good, at least

Spheroid Light Engine

Spoiler

RIP STD
It itself will be fantastic, though

It's at 75% weight of a STD engine, to the 50% of isXL and cXL
That is to say, it's still inferior to the cXL, but shites all over the STD
Also allows for an AC20, or UAC20 to be ST mounted


I'm expecting reduced penalties compared to cXLs with ST loss, but personally, I'd go with none at all, and buff the STD to compensate

Powerful Spheroid tech

Spheroid Light Ferro Fibrous Armor

Spoiler

By Mecha Cthulhu...Clams OP
This is just as bad as isFF, but half as beneficial and half as costly

14 VS 7 Crits
12% VS 6% extra armour per ton

That's VS the Clam FF
7 Crits for 20% protection


Yes, LFF is under 1/3 what cFF gives you for the same cost
#PGIPLZno


But, practically speaking, if you have 7 Crits free, why not. It won't give you much (half of what FF would currently offer you), but it might make a Heatsink. On an Assault mech

Spheroid Stealth Armor

Spoiler

Magic Jesus Field incarnate, is that you?


I'm assuming this removes the ability to even have a Dorito, or at the very least, sets your "targetingFactor" to 0.0, while ECM currently gives you a 0.25

So, no matter how close a target gets, he'll never be able to target
I'm unsure how this would affect TAG (and guided weapons in general)
I'll assume they'll just have a bad time.

Also unsure if PGI will make them take the proper Crits, or just assign them floating.

It costs 1 H/s to use, rendering your TrueDubs into SHS
I'll assuming flipping J, to Counter, means it turns the Stealth Armor off

Potentially useful, but mostly for Potato Land
You'll need to turn it off when you actually Fight, because SHS are BAD

Spheroid Targeting Computers

Spoiler

Good

Identical to the Clam TCs, I'm assuming. Just give the Spheroid the capability to equip them.
They already have all the applicable Spheroid weaponry listed in their stats.

Flip
That
Flag!

Laser AMS (Clam & Spheroid)

Spoiler

It's...AMS, but hot

1.5 tons for the Sphere, 1 ton for Clams
Or, 1 AMS and a half ton of ammo for either, but in 1 Crit slot.

It's 5 and 7 heat, but I imagine it can be normalized, and generate 0.5 H/s when in use
Taking up 2.5 TrueDubs worth of cooling, but never heating you up.

Not a bad thing, but still not sure I'd use one

Clam Micro Lasers

Spoiler

It's so small!

0.25 and 0.5 tons, 1 Crit, 1 heat
2 and 3 damage
I'm thinking the damage might change, because the cSPL got that whole DOUBLE source damage thing going on (very nice that it's useful, unlike the Spheroid SPL)

These...might have a place for the hardpoint galore robots (like the glory which is the Piranha, Soon™), Nova, Exe
But, they may prove to just be a novelty. Source Range of 90/120 prevents their use, most of the time

Clam Heavy Laser family

Spoiler

Hot, Big, depends on implementation
Specifically, Duration

The Heavy Lasers have potential to be absolutely nasty for fast movers, to vomit damage and back off, or on mechs who have massive cooling, or just pathetic numbers of hardpoints

HSL is the weakest, as you'd expect.
90M, 3 heat, 6 damage
That's worse all around than the cSPL (double TT damage)
So, expect it to get a damage boost, and a burn increase. Maybe even 7 damage...matching the cERML

HML is the nasty one
10 Dam
7 Heat
2 Crits
1 Ton
270M

Duration is what makes or breaks this one
Already as hot as a MWO cERML stock, which may stay the same, but just a duration increase over it

HLL
16 Dam
18 Heat
3 Crits
4 Ton
450M

This has a bad Heat/Dam ratio
It will need adjusting, especially with the massively inflated cLPL damage (much like the SPL/HSL relation)


The effectiveness all depends on implementation. Don't expect much overlap with Pulse or ER lasers, as they are short range, high damage, probably higher facetime

Light Clam equipment?!

Spoiler

It's smaller, and has less range

Should be neat for some mechs.
LAP is listed as 90M detection range (VS 120 and 150)
It would probably have a shorter anti-ECM bubble as well.
Streak boats may prefer to keep the full size probe, but people who want Target Info should be fine with the LAP


Light Tag should be just as effective, but less range
It has a 270M range, which would actually make it very dangerous to use
I might consider it on my new ATM mechs, to get faster locks against ECM (and hopefully Stealth Armor) equipped mechs

Clam Advanced Tactical Missiles

Spoiler

Plz don't Bad
They should be powerful, with the given header:



TT ATMs had 3 types of ammo, all with different range brackets.
In MWO, I'm expecting something very simple: Starting 3 damage, linear falloff, 3x range
So, 3 damage at 0M, 0 damage at 810M

They may change that, with the 1/2/3 damage values in whichever given range brackets, but we won't have ammo to fuss around with


Mechanically, I expect LRMs, possibly with more shallow arcs (or, arcs dependent on range, only more severely than LRMs currently are)
Straight trajectory at sub 200M mechs, sort of thing


I imagine they'll be locking, and I imagine the Artemis bug will still affect them fully
So, I plan to throw a couple on my Dual Gauss Scorch, add a Light Tag instead of a half ton Gauss Ammo, and get 25% Lock acquisition ATMs at 270M, and half duration at range


These might make me consider taking Locking Missiles, simply because they will be more reliable...hopefully

That took awhile...
TL:DR

Legacy Tech™ wise, the STD engine is my biggest concern, but the isSL family also has some issues
SL could be given a shorter range, and significantly shorter cooldown. Make it DPS instead of poke-y (but again, that's then the SPL niche)

STD is easy to fix:
Give the Engine quirks
That simple
Make it more durable, have better agility (with the decoupling of Engine Size, Engine Type could have an effect instead)
And, if all else fails, give it more cooling. Energy Boat might appreciate it, as would Brawlers.



LBx family has the issue of being bad. That's less of a LegacyTech™ issue and more a fundamental problem with the weapon system


UACs do have the potential of drowning out the isACs
That can be fixed by giving the ACs better stats in a non-damage fashion. Such as velocity. If they were 50% faster (random number) they could hit more reliably, and thus be more accurate instead of just brute forcing the damage out.
Can be applied to cACs as well as isACs. Both will be in a not-great place VS UACs


isNormal Laser family could likely use a heat decrease with the coming of isER lasers.
Remember the Slunchening of 2012? Most probably don't, but they still retain the 200% heat nerf, and the +1 heat to the isML as well.
Those could be reduced to 1 & 3


Gauss, I feel the normal Gauss would still remain the most powerful, without Stat Fudging. All could be made useful, IMO


RACs shouldn't eliminate the burst potential of large UACs, but the DPS role could see a shift away from normal ACs

MGs may have identity issues if damage and range are the only differences

MRMs could either replace SRMs entirely, or never compare. Progressive velocity was one suggestion, if it's a PGI programming possibility.

Rocket Launchers could be better MRMs which fire once, or just bad


PPC family has a strange amount of overlap, and yet almost identical stats when mixing LPPCs and the other types. Snub does offer something new, no min range for 10 heat

Ferro is still Terribad, but now it only costs the same for sub 1/3 the result!

TCs won't marginalize anything, and would hopefully be identical to cTCs






So...what are you worried about getting replaced? Really, it seems many have space for individual roles, or worthlessness. Only the Luffy comes to really replace anything outright


And no, being able to mount a isLB20x or Heavy Gauss cannot be the SOLE role for the STD engine to exist
It competes with the cXL, remember that.

I'm still irked about CXL vs IS XL - the real problem here is that neither the LFE or IS XL is as good as CXL, but now IS needs to buy an even more expensive version of the XL that's not as good as the CXL for the same price.

Other than that?

I think there's a lot of potential here for good changes without serious power creep.

There's some real concern though of ways to screw this up so I think we're all a bit nervous to see what actually gets released. I'm willing to be hopeful but again, so much potential to bugger this up.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 15 March 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm still irked about CXL vs IS XL - the real problem here is that neither the LFE or IS XL is as good as CXL, but now IS needs to buy an even more expensive version of the XL that's not as good as the CXL for the same price.

Other than that?

I think there's a lot of potential here for good changes without serious power creep.

There's some real concern though of ways to screw this up so I think we're all a bit nervous to see what actually gets released. I'm willing to be hopeful but again, so much potential to bugger this up.

There is some benefit that the LFE is less expensive
The more X, the higher the price


Yeah, there will be issues, I have no doubt

[Hit the Deck]

MischiefSC, on 15 March 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm still irked about CXL vs IS XL - the real problem here is that neither the LFE or IS XL is as good as CXL, but now IS needs to buy an even more expensive version of the XL that's not as good as the CXL for the same price.
....

XXL would be the most expensive as McGral said.

There are unbalanced things which are baked into the game like Clan Ferro/Endo taking only half the space compared to the IS version. You can certainly balance these things by introducing some values into them like buffing the isEndo so it gives bonus structure to your isMechs, but that seems ugly.

A more elegant way to balance is simply to ignore the TRO/lore values and assign new properties to items or even create your own system specific to the game like in MW4, MechCommander, or MechAssault.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Why would the heavier Inner Sphere UACs have burst fire? The clan versions have bust fire not because they are UACs, but because they are lighter and consume fewer crits.

The IS UACs will all be larger and heavier than the Clan versions, so they should not be penalized like the clan versions. Maybe 2 shots for the UAC/20... But making them into burst weapons with long jam cooldowns while also heaver and larger than clan versions would stink big-time.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 March 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Hit the Deck, on 15 March 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

XXL would be the most expensive as McGral said.

There are unbalanced things which are baked into the game like Clan Ferro/Endo taking only half the space compared to the IS version. You can certainly balance these things by introducing some values into them like buffing the isEndo so it gi

A more elegant way to balance is simply to ignore the TRO/lore values and assign new properties to items or even create your own system specific to the game like in MW4, MechCommander, or MechAssault.

What?! Take care of the inherent balance problems of an intentionally imbalanced game with decades-old rules? Heresy!

[Mcgral18]

Prosperity Park, on 15 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Why would the heavier Inner Sphere UACs have burst fire? The clan versions have bust fire not because they are UACs, but because they are lighter and consume fewer crits.

The IS UACs will all be larger and heavier than the Clan versions, so they should not be penalized like the clan versions. Maybe 2 shots for the UAC/20... But making them into burst weapons with long jam cooldowns while also heaver and larger than clan versions would stink big-time.

Largely because of the normal ACs
They can also be buffed, and the 10 and 20 Ultra series both be at 2 shells, but frontloading it all doesn't strike me as a good idea

It's no fun to be insta-gibbed (not that it would compare to the SupaHunchDakkaBear...but we shouldn't revisit that )

The UAC5 does have both a lower jam chance, ever so marginally
17% VS 15%
6s VS 6.5s

That gulf should probably be made larger...but I imagine all Spheroid UACs would follow suit with that line of thought.
Ever so marginally increased stats, for the significant tonnage and Crit slot deficiencies

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 March 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Prosperity Park, on 15 March 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

What?! Take care of the inherent balance problems of an intentionally imbalanced game with decades-old rules? Heresy!

To be fair, they have modified the rules and even introduced new ones like the hardpoint system. But those are not enough to make the TT game into an FPS PvP game.

[Mcgral18]

RestosIII, on 14 March 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

Just realized something about stealth armor. What if while active it removes the HUD scrambling on enemy mechs when you get close? Would make ECM mechs even scarier for people without seismic.

I'm not sure they'd go that far

Besides, it's only a 90M bubble at this point
Then again, you might be on Forest, or a Night map...
If that affects Thermal vision, I'm going to be upset and ask for Mag vision

El Bandito, on 15 March 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

Rocket Launchers are gonna be very popular in 1v1 duels due to its low weight/slot requirements.

And that's all I am gonna say about that.

I'm wondering if they should be Dead-Fire warheads at 3 damage apiece...that would be too far, probably
But, maybe more than 1 damage.


Or highly accurate (low spread) Stream fire?
Small potential, but well applied

Bishop Steiner, on 15 March 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

what reason does the STD Clan engine exist for?

Also, Zombie, Sword and Board, units that may not feel the slight boost in mobility is worth the added vulnerability (assuming ST loss penalties of some sort), some won't find the space, etc. It is a concern, not saying it isn't but it's not a universal upgrade.

Well, some robots come stock with them
There's also some unfortunate Omnis stuck with them
But it's not a Clam STD, it's just a STD engine. They're universal. Like SHS, and probably, Soon™, TCs (though, someone was saying isTCs should perform, better, because of the heavier and larger equipment. Less opportunity for big TCs, and it's true)

[Duke Nedo]

Mcgral18, on 15 March 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

TCs (though, someone was saying isTCs should perform, better, because of the heavier and larger equipment. Less opportunity for big TCs, and it's true)

This here feels like a dangerous route to pursue. I believe in that heavier IS equipment should be better by their own right. If you instead start to buff TCs of the same weight as the clan versions, then mechs that's build around heavier IS equipment tax gets an extra bonus from TCs compared to mechs that don't build around the heavier stuff.

For example mechs using IS LPL or ERLL, weapons that I think are potent enough for their weight thanks to short durations (quirked ERLL that is, perhaps UAC5 is a better example) even compared to clan weapons.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 16 March 2017 - 03:41 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Promessa, on 15 March 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

On the PPC's, yeah ghost heat is gonna be a problem. The way ghost heat works, you couldn't give lights a ghost heat of 3 and regulars 2 because things get really weird when you mix them. The same thing is true of heavy lasers. If They give heavy meds a GH of 4, are you gonna be able to shoot 6 medium pulses in the same alpha strike? This would work better with (and I hate to say it) an energy draw system.

That is exactly what I thought. The current heatscale mechanic is not able to handle new weapon types:

-If light PPCs get a separate Ghost Heat group (i predict 4 to get the max 20 alpha strike), then players will use 4LPPC+2PPC for a 40 damage pinpoint alpha.
-If light PPCs get added to the current PPC Ghost Heat grup, then they will be useless (10 max alpha lol).
-If the PPC GHost heat group gets increased to 4 then people will ignore LPPC and boat 4 normal PPC, like in the old days.

Say what you will about Energy draw, it was "future proof". Adding new weapons would not brake it.

Edited by Kmieciu, 16 March 2017 - 02:46 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Kmieciu, on 16 March 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

That is exactly what I thought. The current heatscale mechanic is not able to handle new weapon types:

-If light PPCs get a separate Ghost Heat group (i predict 4 to get the max 20 alpha strike), then players will use 4LPPC+2PPC for a 40 damage pinpoint alpha.
-If light PPCs get added to the current PPC Ghost Heat grup, then they will be useless (10 max alpha lol).
-If the PPC GHost heat group gets increased to 4 then people will ignore LPPC and boat 4 normal PPC, like in the old days.

Say what you will about Energy draw, it was "future proof". Adding new weapons would not brake it.

Aye, absolutely. This is the reason I did some advocating of Energy Draw as a principle. Too bad that PGI went ahead and tried to implement it all wrong, leading it into a dead end.

What they needed to have done (it was suggested too), was to separate "energy ghost heat" from "ballistics ghost heat" and "missiles ghost heat", probably counting PPCs as "ballistics ghost heat". I don't have any good names for it, but energy draw works perfectly for Lasers. No problem there. The problems only start when you put other stuff into the mix, then you start promoting boating de majora.

They could have come up with some kind of Energy draw for lasers combined with a max Reload capacity for ballistics (and missiles, i.e. in other words ghost cooldown) or use ghost spread for missiles. That would have the potential to actually work.

[Metus regem]

MischiefSC, on 15 March 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

I'm still irked about CXL vs IS XL - the real problem here is that neither the LFE or IS XL is as good as CXL, but now IS needs to buy an even more expensive version of the XL that's not as good as the CXL for the same price.

Not even close... In ascending order of cost...

ICE (1250*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Fuel Cell (3500*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Standard Fusion Engine (5000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Fission Engine (7500*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Compact Fusion Engine (10000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Light Fusion Engine (15000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Extra Light Fusion Engine (20000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Extra Extra Light Fusion Engine (100000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75

Looking at what I did, you can see that a LFE is 75% of the cost of a comparable XL engine....

[Hit the Deck]

Metus regem, on 16 March 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Not even close... In ascending order of cost...
...
Standard Fusion Engine (5000*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
Fission Engine (7500*Engine Rating*tonnage)/75
...

I didn't even know that they have fission engines, especially that they cost more than fusion engines!

[Y E O N N E]

Kmieciu, on 16 March 2017 - 02:43 AM, said:

That is exactly what I thought. The current heatscale mechanic is not able to handle new weapon types:

-If light PPCs get a separate Ghost Heat group (i predict 4 to get the max 20 alpha strike), then players will use 4LPPC+2PPC for a 40 damage pinpoint alpha.
-If light PPCs get added to the current PPC Ghost Heat grup, then they will be useless (10 max alpha lol).
-If the PPC GHost heat group gets increased to 4 then people will ignore LPPC and boat 4 normal PPC, like in the old days.

Say what you will about Energy draw, it was "future proof". Adding new weapons would not brake it.

I am not terribly worried about 40 FLD, not when the NTG and KDK already meet or exceed it. And they would use 2xHPPC and 2xLPPC to do it, not 4xLPPC and 2xPPC. Either way, though, it is scalding hot at 40 heat for the same damage, and the slot requirements for the guns and IS DHS will never let you cool that very well. Will be vulnerable to a push.

A good compromise, to me, would be a universal limit of 3 for the PPC family.

[Metus regem]

Hit the Deck, on 16 March 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I didn't even know that they have fission engines, especially that they cost more than fusion engines!

Not only that, but they come with less free Heat Sinks... Fission engines only get 5....

[Hit the Deck]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

...
A good compromise, to me, would be a universal limit of 3 for the PPC family.

I so want this to happen (again) to the isPPC.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 16 March 2017 - 07:28 AM.

[Ultimax]

Promessa, on 15 March 2017 - 01:09 PM, said:

On the PPC's, yeah ghost heat is gonna be a problem. The way ghost heat works, you couldn't give lights a ghost heat of 3 and regulars 2 because things get really weird when you mix them.

If they have different ranges, velocities and heat generated some of that will just work itself out as they aren't identical.

Most of the GH limits (at least originally) were around a cap of 30 damage (or under) on identical or near identical function weapons before you started to generate a penalty.

That system is a bit all over the place, especially now, but that's why we are able to combine 2x CLPL and 6x CERMLAS with no GH. Or why we can do 3x LPL and 6x MLAS, or why we can do 2x PPC + AC 10 or Gauss.

The combinations worked around the original limiter of the system (having nearly identical weapons boated for a single, clean super weapon).

Prosperity Park, on 15 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

Why would the heavier Inner Sphere UACs have burst fire? The clan versions have bust fire not because they are UACs, but because they are lighter and consume fewer crits.

They arguably also have burst fire because of their damage output.

I really don't think you've given enough consideration to what will happen with 2x IS UAC 20 builds that fire 20 point shells, or triple/quad UAC 10s firing 10 point shells in succession.

I can tell you what would happen, after several weeks or months of absolute hilarity, the weapons themselves will get over-nerfed in some fashion.

It's much better to accept burst fire from the get go, a verion that takes into consideration the higher tonnage & crits of IS weapons, then it is to release something clearly overpowered and then watch it get slapped with a penalty that suddenly makes it unusable.

Edited by Ultimax, 16 March 2017 - 10:37 AM.