339 replies to this topic

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

You haven't been paying attention to the Polar Highland matches over the last year or so, then.

The isERLL was straight-up superior to the isLL back when both were 1.00 seconds, so there's that too, and that is part of what I meant by "running the field" .

I have not only paid attention, I have been in the Polar Highland league matches. One thing that is consistently unseen is the Clan ER Large Laser.

CDLord HHGD, on 16 March 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

Still plenty of laser boats out there so I think the duration needs extended.

What is out there in pug matches is not to be used as a standard of change.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 16 March 2017 - 09:45 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

AS used to use them, but I suppose my memory is skewed more by scrims than matches, and that was pre-KDK. So I will concede.

At any rate, cERLL wasn't around in original form long enough for a meta to emerge, and the Clans were banned for tourny use during that time so nobody paid much attention. The only reason the GHR is the ERLL choice right now is because it is dramatically quirked and there is no Clan Heavy with similar mounts. I have no problem buffing the cERLL to give it a similar damage rate and DPS profile, but the IS one can't stay at its vanilla values if the Clan one is altered at all.

And, if I am being bold, it really sounds like you just want to be able to ditch the IS 'Mech and its fragile XL for this role.

[Andi Nagasia]

cant we just decouple Clan and IS Cooldowns???
IS SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 1sec cooldown,
C SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,

IS ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,
C ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,

IS LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,
C LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 4sec cooldown,
then buff Duration accordingly?

[Pariah Devalis]

I would just like to see them in a reasonably usable state. If that comes with incidental boosts to the IS variation, so be it, but it sucks having an entire weapon system that is unused outside of very specific builds or chassis. I mean, we already have "unused" weapons in the C-AC series, after all.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 March 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

cant we just decouple Clan and IS Cooldowns???
IS SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 1sec cooldown,
C SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,

IS ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,
C ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,

IS LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,
C LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 4sec cooldown,
then buff Duration accordingly?

We can, and that's what I do in my own tables. Just...different numbers than that.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

At any rate, cERLL wasn't around in original form long enough for a meta to emerge, and the Clans were banned for tourny use during that time so nobody paid much attention.

You made my point, they have never been used or tested as they were originally drawn up, just deemed too op based upon pug matches and not competition.

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

And, if I am being bold, it really sounds like you just want to be able to ditch the IS 'Mech and its fragile XL for this role.

I like the IS mechs with IS ER Large, I think the devs did a good job with many of them although there has been so much kick back from pug drops that even the GHR got nerfed again, more than it was in the world championship tourney client.

It's up to the devs to balance the IS side of things.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 16 March 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:14 AM, said:

We can, and that's what I do in my own tables. Just...different numbers than that.

of course, i feel PGI is trying to hold to the,...
Small Lasers = 2.25Cooldown,
Medium Lasers = 2.00Cooldown,
Large Lasers = 3.25Cooldown,
i think holding to these are holding PGI back,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 March 2017 - 10:17 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 16 March 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

I would just like to see them in a reasonably usable state. If that comes with incidental boosts to the IS variation, so be it, but it sucks having an entire weapon system that is unused outside of very specific builds or chassis. I mean, we already have "unused" weapons in the C-AC series, after all.

IS Small lasers, isMPL, most LB-X, C-ACs, even standard isACs...all either unused or extremely niche. I expect uLs, uPLs, RLs, and LMG to join them.

Blah.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

IS Small lasers, isMPL, most LB-X, C-ACs, even standard isACs...all either unused or extremely niche. I expect uLs, uPLs, RLs, and LMG to join them.

Blah.

Unrelated: the only thing I see that would save RL would be if you could equip them outside of hardpoints. That is to say, you could mount them to anything, as long as it was not a leg and the crits are available, regardless of hardpoint availability.

[Monkey Lover]

They're 6 pages here so not sure if anyone said this but the skill tree will bring duration buffs for all lasers here soon™ Last on the pts was 15% this would bring clan erl down to about IS erl now.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 March 2017 - 10:31 AM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

IS Small lasers, isMPL, most LB-X, C-ACs, even standard isACs...all either unused or extremely niche. I expect uLs, uPLs, RLs, and LMG to join them.

Blah.

This is a fundamental issue with limiting the number of effective weapons instead of increasing and balance.

[Y E O N N E]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

You made my point, they have never been used or tested as they were originally drawn up, just deemed too op based upon pug matches and not competition.

Everybody worth his salt back then saw the writing on the wall for its potential just as sure as we knew what the Kodiak 3 would be capable of before it ever hit the servers. It was absolutely brutal in group matches and made maps like Alpine and River City unplayable unless you had some of your own. That is why PGI's knee-jerk was so bad with the 2.00s nerf. You can call that anecdotal, but I am not fond of large pulse lasers with ER LL range. It's too easy.

Quote

I like the IS mechs with IS ER Large, I think the devs did a good job with many of them although there has been so much kick back from pug drops that even the GHR got nerfed again, more than it was in the world championship tourney client.

But if you could get a Clan 'Mech doing the same thing, you would choose it every time. Are you willing to trade some equitable offensive capacity to gain that defensive advantage or are you looking to have both?

Quote

It's up to the devs to balance the IS side of things.

It is up to them to balance the Clan side of things, too, no?

Pariah Devalis, on 16 March 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

Unrelated: the only thing I see that would save RL would be if you could equip them outside of hardpoints. That is to say, you could mount them to anything, as long as it was not a leg and the crits are available, regardless of hardpoint availability.

I had that same thought. There would have to be a hard cap on the number you can equip, or we enable suicide griefing.

[Bluttrunken]

That change is long overdue.

[Y E O N N E]

XxRingWraithxX, on 16 March 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

This is a fundamental issue with limiting the number of effective weapons instead of increasing and balance.

It is more basic than that, it is an issue with having some weapons be head and shoulders better than others. Nerf the top, buff the bottom, same result.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

Everybody worth his salt back then saw the writing on the wall for its potential just as sure as we knew what the Kodiak 3 would be capable of before it ever hit the servers. It was absolutely brutal in group matches and made maps like Alpine and River City unplayable unless you had some of your own. That is why PGI's knee-jerk was so bad with the 2.00s nerf. You can call that anecdotal, but I am not fond of large pulse lasers with ER LL range. It's too easy.



But if you could get a Clan 'Mech doing the same thing, you would choose it every time. Are you willing to trade some equitable offensive capacity to gain that defensive advantage or are you looking to have both?



It is up to them to balance the Clan side of things, too, no?



I had that same thought. There would have to be a hard cap on the number you can equip, or we enable suicide griefing.

Again, the problem you see is with limiting effective mechs and weapons based upon fear, instead of increasing the number of effective weapons and mechs and letting play style war it out on the battlefield.

[SilentWolff]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 12:04 AM, said:

lol a wash.... it has 18% more damage and has about 18% more duration.

What i call a ghost heat wash is the 1 slot, more range and less weight,

Funny how the clanners always want more and the IS pilots just want balance haha

Im not a "clanner". Stop with that ridiculous argument. IS ERLL are superior to the Clan ERLL right now and its all because of the duration. They are unusable vs good pilots, period. Go ahead and stand out in the open for 1.5 seconds and watch yourself get r@ped against people using PPC's, IS ERLL or any pulse weapon. Its just not in a good place, end of story.

Darth Hotz, on 16 March 2017 - 07:18 AM, said:

I understand. IS units change tactics and clanners don´t want to adept but stay in their comfort zone, which is 1200m away from the hotspots. To get this accomplished, they use their most fearsome weapon: Tears!

No map, but perhaps Alpine and Polar, are you shooting at 1200 meters. Even then, your doing a pittance of damage at that range. So your example is a pi$$ poor one.
Ill say this again, I dont know where this attitude has come from that Im a clanner than wants an unbalanced game. This thread was created to buff ERLL lasers from BOTH sides. But the fact is, the Clan ERLL is in ALOT worse shape that the IS ERLL and its all about the duration. I dont care if you want to drop the damage to compensate for duration buff. Whatever we gotta do to make the weapon actually usable, Im all for.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 March 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

It is more basic than that, it is an issue with having some weapons be head and shoulders better than others. Nerf the top, buff the bottom, same result.

The remedy is to increase effectiveness of others so all weapons and play styles can be equally represented instead of getting rid of them having one viable mid point with fringes non existent.

[Monkey Lover]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 March 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

cant we just decouple Clan and IS Cooldowns???
IS SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 1sec cooldown,
C SL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,

IS ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 2sec cooldown,
C ML Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,

IS LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 3sec cooldown,
C LL Class(STD / ER / Pulse) = 4sec cooldown,
then buff Duration accordingly?

No way this would make peak/poke and alpha clans even more powerful. Duration is there for a reason. Its kind of nice to use up some of my armor.

[SilentWolff]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

They're 6 pages here so not sure if anyone said this but the skill tree will bring duration buffs for all lasers here soon™ Last on the pts was 15% this would bring clan erl down to about IS erl now.

Yes, but we all know PGI cant be trusted and the skill tree is going to change. So, while I hope that is the case, Im not counting on it.

[XxRingWraithxX]

SilentWolff, on 16 March 2017 - 10:42 AM, said:

But the fact is, the Clan ERLL is in ALOT worse shape that the IS ERLL and its all about the duration. I dont care if you want to drop the damage to compensate for duration buff. Whatever we gotta do to make the weapon actually usable, Im all for.

I care, it has never been proven to be op so doing anything other than decreasing it's duration is unnecessary. What to do with the IS is another thing altogether.