339 replies to this topic

[XxRingWraithxX]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

I have already said that I wouldnt be opposed to reducing the damage of the Clan ERLL to compensate.

I would, especially when they have never even been proven to be viable in the state they were originally drawn up.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Funny, that doesnt seem to apply to brawl weapons except possibly the AC/20. Which is my whole point of how the game has changed with fast brawlers and how the ERLL are still being punished for a playstyle that no longer exists.

It does apply to brawl weapons. Where were you during the Energy Draw PTS and long-range volley was so nerfed that brawl-push became the meta?

On live, they have never, ever actually nerfed all of the long range options simultaneously. They would drop one, and you all flipped to the other and complained about them dropping that one until they brought it back.

[SilentWolff]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

15. It is 15 tons to get three isERLL.
That being said, this thread is getting ridiculous. I don't think many in here strictly disagree about buffing the cERLL, myself included. We only seem to be arguing over exact implementation and, frankly, only one half is actually providing any empirical information to the discussion. The other is arguing entirely from seat-of the-pants.

If by empirical evidence you mean why we never see Clan ERLL in any comp play you would be right. Theres a reason for that of course, evidently thats the argument now.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

It does apply to brawl weapons. Where were you during the Energy Draw PTS and long-range volley was so nerfed that brawl-push became the meta?

On live, they have never, ever actually nerfed all of the long range options simultaneously. They would drop one, and you all flipped to the other and complained about them dropping that one until they brought it back.

Irrelevant. Energy draw was shelved. Lets talk about the game as it is now, not a failed test on the PTS.
Also, they nerfed both the IS ERLL and the Clan ERLL and the same time. Thats a big portion of the long range game.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 02:23 PM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:22 PM, said:

If by empirical evidence you mean why we never see Clan ERLL in any comp play you would be right. Theres a reason for that of course, evidently thats the argument now.

Always has been.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

If by empirical evidence you mean why we never see Clan ERLL in any comp play you would be right.

Of which there are multiple reasons why, only one you are willing to accept.

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Irrelevant.

This word does not mean what you think it means....apparently.

[Y E O N N E]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

Irrelevant. Energy draw was shelved. Lets talk about the game as it is now, not a failed test on the PTS.
Also, they nerfed both the IS ERLL and the Clan ERLL and the same time. Thats a big portion of the long range game.

Absolutely relevant as long as we are discussing the merits of a nerf versus a buff. You wanted to see what happens when you nerf all of the long range weapons, there it is.

And yes, they did hit both ERLL. And you all switched right over to the similarly ranged cLPL. Then that got nerfed, but by then you had already switched back to ERPPC and Gauss because of the power-position meta started by the MAL and enhanced by the KDK-3. And quirks had come out to un-nerf thebweapons on certain chassis. At no point have they sufficiently whacked all of those long range weapons to make the short-range ones good on anything other than a light weight match.

[SilentWolff]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Of which there are multiple reasons why, only one you are willing to accept.


This word does not mean what you think it means....apparently.

I play comp, do you? Hence the reason I brought it up. I know why, evidently theres alot of you on the forum that dont. I concede that ghost heat is also an issue btw.

How does bringing up energy draw on the test server that they scrapped have any relevance to this conversation?

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 03:28 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I play comp, do you? Hence the reason I brought it up. I know why, evidently theres alot of you on the forum that dont.

How does bringing up and energy draw on the test server that they scrapped have any relevance to this conversation?

He's SJR.

[Andi Nagasia]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Am I speaking a foreign language? The main difference besides ghost heat is duration. Its the reason that Clan ERLL are not viable, especially in comp play. Whats so hard understanding this simple fact?
I have already said that I wouldnt be opposed to reducing the damage of the Clan ERLL to compensate.

well im pretty sure im typing in English, but i digress,
reguardless of Duration, both have nearly the same damage Per Tick,
with a Ghost Heat Level of 3max they would both be nearly equal,

i dont think the duration needs to be Decreased i feel the GH limit should be increased by 1,

Dam/Tick works as follows, which of the Below is Better?
Weapon A (20Damage @ 4second Duration)
Weapon B (10Damage @ 2second Duration)
both have the same Tick Rate but (A) can hold longer for more damage,
there for Weapon A, is better than weapon B, if all other Factors are the same,

this is why CERLL would be balanced to ERLL if the GH was the same, even with 1.5Sec Duration,
to decrease Ghost Heat Limit and Duration would lead to the weapon Over Preforming ERLLs,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 March 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[XxRingWraithxX]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Absolutely relevant as long as we are discussing the merits of a nerf versus a buff. You wanted to see what happens when you nerf all of the long range weapons, there it is.

And yes, they did hit both ERLL. And you all switched right over to the similarly ranged cLPL. Then that got nerfed, but by then you had already switched back to ERPPC and Gauss because of the power-position meta started by the MAL and enhanced by the KDK-3. And quirks had come out to un-nerf thebweapons on certain chassis. At no point have they sufficiently whacked all of those long range weapons to make the short-range ones good on anything other than a light weight match.

That's exactly what happens when you start nerfing instead of buffing... Less effective weapons instead of more. Buff the weak, done.

Edited by XxRingWraithxX, 17 March 2017 - 02:39 PM.

[SilentWolff]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Absolutely relevant as long as we are discussing the merits of a nerf versus a buff. You wanted to see what happens when you nerf all of the long range weapons, there it is.

And yes, they did hit both ERLL. And you all switched right over to the similarly ranged cLPL. Then that got nerfed, but by then you had already switched back to ERPPC and Gauss because of the power-position meta started by the MAL and enhanced by the KDK-3. And quirks had come out to un-nerf thebweapons on certain chassis. At no point have they sufficiently whacked all of those long range weapons to make the short-range ones good on anything other than a light weight match.

It has no relevance because the entire system was replaced and then scrapped. It would be relevant if they kept the current system we have now, but adjusted the durations and ghost heat.

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

He's SJR.

Jesus, that makes his post even worse lol
He needs to come back in the thread and enlighten us on all the mechs they use in comp that have Clan ERLL. But he wont do that because no one uses them in comp play. Now ask him why.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 03:27 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

He's SJR.

Good Team, great to see them During -SA- Practice nights,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 March 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

It has no relevance because the entire system was replaced and then scrapped. It would be relevant if they kept the current system we have now, but adjusted the durations and ghost heat.

It does not matter one iota that it was scrapped because we were talking broad, generic theory about what happens when you nerf good items versus buffing bad ones for that conversation thread.

XxRingWraithxX, on 17 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

That's exactly what happens when you start nerfing instead of buffing... Less effective weapons instead of more. Buff the weak, done.

Do you only think in one dimension? Do you know what a complementary angle is?

[SilentWolff]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

well im pretty sure im typing in English, but i digress,
reguardless of Duration, both have nearly the same damage Per Tick,
with a Ghost Heat Level of 3max they would both be nearly equal,

i dont think the duration needs to be Decreased i feel the GH limit should be increased by 1,

Dam/Tick works as follows, which of the Below is Better?
Weapon A (20Damage @ 4second Duration)
Weapon B (10Damage @ 2second Duration)
both have the same Tick Rate but (A) can hold longer for more damage,
there for Weapon A, is better than weapon B, if all other Factors are the same,

this is why CERLL would be balanced to ERLL if the GH was the same, even with 1.5Sec Duration,
to decrease Ghost Heat Limit and Duration would lead to the weapon Over Preforming ERLLs,

But what you fail to have in that comparison is that the longer the duration, the more the damage is spread and thats a huge deal. And thats if your even hitting at all against a good player who will be quick to take cover.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

It has no relevance because the entire system was replaced and then scrapped. It would be relevant if they kept the current system we have now, but adjusted the durations and ghost heat.

Energy draw was a good system, that got caught up in too many changes too Quickly,
PGI is planing on coming back to Energy Draw but after Incursion-PTS and Skill-Tree Release,

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Jesus, that makes his post even worse lol
hes need to come back in the thread and enlighten us on all the mechs they use in comp that have Clan ERLL. But he wont do that because no one used them in comp play. Now ask him why.

Hey cool it with the personal attack, debate concepts not Merits, thank you

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

But what you fail to have in that comparison is that the longer the duration, the more the damage is spread and thats a huge deal.

nope not at all,
20 over 4 seconds vs 10 over 2,
at 2 seconds into both attacks both weapons have done 10Damage,
its just where one weapon system stops Firing the other keeps Going abit longer,
so the weapon that fires longer has more Potential damage vs the shorter duration less Damaging weapon,

[SilentWolff]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

Hey cool it with the personal attack, debate concepts not Merits, thank you

How is that a personal attack? I didnt attack him personally. I said his post was bad and imo it is.
Now if I said he was a crap player and shouldnt post, thats a personal attack.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 02:48 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

How is that a personal attack? I didnt attack him personally.

the

SilentWolff, on 17 March 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

Jesus, that makes his post even worse lol

statment makes it sound like your Patronizing, as if He should know better due to his Skill,

im just saying for everyone to take a step back take a deep breath and relax,

[SilentWolff]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 March 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

It does not matter one iota that it was scrapped because we were talking broad, generic theory about what happens when you nerf good items versus buffing bad ones for that conversation thread.

It does matter. When you throw out all the rules for the game your playing and replace it with an entire new system, it holds little relevance to the arguement,

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

That 2 extra damage translates to the .25 extra duration, and I wouldn't say it will never get used. When you know you can deal more damage per trigger pull, you aren't on the defensive every shot.

The extra 2 heat isn't as big of a deal either given Clans have ES/FF that is much more compact and the fact that cERLL are 1 ton lighter (and 1 slot smaller DHS), which ultimately translates more DHS. Most IS mechs max out at 18-20 DHS (GHR runs I believe 18), clans typically run somewhere between 20-30.

Clans get 33% space savings on DHS and 50% space savings on Endo. So with 2 identical 50 mechs, one Clan and one IS, both with 3 erlls, the Clan mech will have 10 more slots available (7 for smaller Endo, e saved for smaller lasers) and 3 extra tons. Plus the massive XL advantage. The number of players who can exploit a 0.2 second burn advantage to win trades couldn't fill 3 drops at the same time.

The real reason CERLLs are not in comp is that Clan loadouts have better options. ISERLLs on 2 heavily quirked mechs and the odd LPL build are the only IS mech I see in comp. Buffing cerlls is highly unlikely to make cerlls replace erppcs unless you make them stupidly better, at which point they replace all other lasers.

[SilentWolff]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 March 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

the

statment makes it sound like your Patronizing, as if He should know better due to his Skill,

im just saying for everyone to take a step back take a deep breath and relax,

Well, maybe a was being a bit patronizing lol.
But clarity on his part is needed, because if you go look at his post regarding my comment, one could argue he was also being quite patronizing to me.

Edited by SilentWolff, 17 March 2017 - 02:54 PM.