48 replies to this topic

[charliedelta76]

So Rotary Autocannons for the IS
This can be the bane of every clan mech in the game.
A rapid firing "GATLING GUN"
Anyone who's seen A-10 Tank Killer footage in youtube knows how utterly DEVASTATING this weapon is. A lot of self indulgent weiners will want this weapon system not to come to the game for the selfish reason that it so many people used this weapon their skill rating will heavily suffer. I will admit I am a solid core IS player who has not bought a single clan mech since I started playing and relish the thought of hosing down Clan Battlemechs cockpits down with a rapid fire gun fire that can crack cockpits with some 12 shots.

But I have to be FAIR.
I have to get out the possiblity of me looking biased so we can speak freely without any accusations of me being one sided.

Let me be clear: I have played Battlefield 4 and Battlefield 3 online so some of the sources I cite regarding recoil control and balancing is taken from these two games.

Lets now talk of properly balancing the Rotary Autocannon:
First we have to get the definition right of what it does:



Now we know how deadly this weapon is and potentially unbalancing this is, in the end of the day in a quickplay match you would not want to face this weapon yourself.

So lets go into a quick discussion on how to "Balance" this weapon.

1. Spin up and spin down time: In our reality this weapon does not have any spin up time, because they are preloaded at the base to fire automatically, the spin up system allows the weapon to have a certain delay. There is a plan to implement this in game. My Personal thought on this is half good and half bad. Owing to the fact that mechanically this is now how the Gatling gun functions, bad you'd be dead from laser vomit in no time because laser Alpha strikes have no delay.

2. Heat per shot: This makes some sense in stopping players from boating this weapon. Allowing the mech to overheat, again laser boaters have gotten around this using smaller lasers and faster mechs.

3. Random number generator: This is used on UAC to make sure the fast firing system is not abused easily gotten around by using multiple weapons. In light of the RAC maybe they'll get around to adjusting the UAC since as compared to the nearly insane fire rate of the RAC this weapon feels more sane.

Now we get to my experience in Battlefield games to balance this rapid fire weapon.

3. Ballistic Spread: simply put the longer you hold down the fire button the larger the spread, this has been done well in battlefield games to make weapons feel different due the recoil.

4. Reload time AKA cool down time. Maybe PGI can incorporate simple magazine reload time where your have a micro "jam" very 100 rounds fired . to reload the RAC with a rapid fire magazine.

In summation
I suggest to balance the RAC is
1. Balistic spread to keep people from being too trigger happy...
2. Reload time reload every few hundred or so rounds.
3. Heat per shot

...

[FupDup]

The main thing is just to make them NOT be PPFLD like normal IS Autocannons. This is especially important for the RAC/5 since it would have the potential to have chunks of 5 PPFLD spat out rapidly. They need to be burst-fire (like Clan ACs) in some form.

[Amsro]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

The main thing is just to make them NOT be PPFLD like normal IS Autocannons. This is especially important for the RAC/5 since it would have the potential to have chunks of 5 PPFLD spat out rapidly. They need to be burst-fire (like Clan ACs) in some form.

Perhaps the windup could be a lenthy as well. 2-4 seconds?

Maybe more like the MG in the way that it is a hitscan weapon, with a time cap for duration before a long cooldown?

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

The main thing is just to make them NOT be PPFLD like normal IS Autocannons. This is especially important for the RAC/5 since it would have the potential to have chunks of 5 PPFLD spat out rapidly. They need to be burst-fire (like Clan ACs) in some form.

Burst fire, wind-up/wind-down, higher jam chance... I'm not too worried that they will be hard to balance.

[Monkey Lover]

Just the spin up time is going to make them very hard to use with all the cover on these maps. If a mech is standing in the open they will die before the autocannon even starts to fire lol


I can see them being fun on something like an atlas when pushing

[FupDup]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Just the spin up time is going to make them very hard to use with all the cover on these maps. If a mech is standing in the open they will die before the autocannon even starts to fire lol

I can see them being fun on something like an atlas when pushing

You can start spinning up the barrels before you peek out, you know.

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

You can start spinning up the barrels before you peek out, you know.

Or do what I do, for every game where I get to use Gatling Guns... keep them spinning near firing speed... constantly.

[Monkey Lover]

FupDup, on 16 March 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

You can start spinning up the barrels before you peek out, you know.

Again is the other side just standing there waiting to get shot? If they give them a spin up of even twice what a Gauss rifle has they will be very hard to use.

[Johnny Z]

Definitely most excited about this weapon. I really hope all the Inner Sphere weapons get a sound update. Clan weapons sound good to me.

[Scout Derek]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

Again is the other side just standing there waiting to get shot? If they give them a spin up of even twice what a Gauss rifle has they will be very hard to use.

You can just use F3 to peak over your side and see where they are, then begin your prefire. GG.

[The6thMessenger]

I'd rather just make them large machine-guns, with blistering speed, has COF, but overheats and stalls after a while.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Jamming will kill this as a viable weapon.

"Shoots 6x faster than a standard AC... For 2 shots, then jams for half an hour" because you need it to jam 3x longer than a UAC to be balanced, right?

We need to make a strong deviation from TT rules to make it viable, and it would be super easy.

Make the RACs act as gattling guns that deliver large numbers of small rounds with a Cone of Fire, but NOWHERE NEAR 6x damage output of normal AC. Make the overall DPS higher than a AC, but pay for that in terms on inaccuracy and lack of front-loaded damage of large slugs

Edited by Prosperity Park, 16 March 2017 - 03:32 PM.

[Khobai]

the easiest way to balance it is give clans rotary autocannons too

clans get rotary autocannons in 3069

seems kindve unfair to deny it to clans because of a 1 year difference. especially when other exceptions have already been made.

Quote

Jamming will kill this as a viable weapon.

except youll be able to put multiple of them on a mech. having multiple rotarys should average out the jamming like it does for UACs.

I dont think jamming will kill it as a viable weapon.

whats more likely to kill it as a viable weapon is the fact its going to burn through ammo so fast that you wont be able to carry enough ammo to use it all game. I run out of ammo just using UAC5s now, so tripling the fire rate is sure to run you out of ammo very quickly.

Edited by Khobai, 16 March 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 16 March 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

the easiest way to balance it is give clans rotary autocannons too

clans get rotary autocannons in 3069



except youll be able to put multiple of them on a mech. having multiple rotarys should average out the jamming like it does for UACs.

I dont think jamming will kill it as a viable weapon.

Well, that frantic fire and jamming would be a total ******* buzzkill.

Prosperity Park, on 16 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

Jamming will kill this as a viable weapon.

"Shoots 6x faster than a standard AC... For 2 shots, then jams for half an hour" because you need it to jam 3x longer than a UAC to be balanced, right?

We need to make a strong deviation from TT rules to make it viable, and it would be super easy.

Make the RACs act as gattling guns that deliver large numbers of small rounds with a Cone of Fire, but NOWHERE NEAR 6x damage output of normal AC. Make the overall DPS higher than a AC, but pay for that in terms on inaccuracy and lack of front-loaded damage of large slugs

RAC2 is actually 8 tons, and RAC5 is 10 tons. They should deal dps with respect to their tonnage, else there would be no point to take RAC2 over RAC5 if it deals the same DPS when AC5 is ppfld with longer range.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 16 March 2017 - 04:06 PM.

[Stonefalcon]

Amsro, on 16 March 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

Perhaps the windup could be a lenthy as well. 2-4 seconds?

Maybe more like the MG in the way that it is a hitscan weapon, with a time cap for duration before a long cooldown?

The potential spray like how the MGs work could be the balancing factor this weapon will need. I do like the wind up/down time PGI are suggesting, if it's something like two seconds people can't wander the battlefield pre charging it like Gauss cause you will end up with a wind up and then down delay of up to four seconds.

I'm ok with a weapon with a nuts DPS rate as long as there are other factors balancing it. The MG like spray would be one as the on point damage would be similar to ACs if tweaked right. Another possibility could be recoil when firing with the longer you fire the greater the recoil.

[Karl Marlow]

<speaking in rotary autocannon>

Dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka.

[Anjian]

Monkey Lover, on 16 March 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

Just the spin up time is going to make them very hard to use with all the cover on these maps. If a mech is standing in the open they will die before the autocannon even starts to fire lol


I can see them being fun on something like an atlas when pushing

[Anjian]

charliedelta76, on 16 March 2017 - 01:33 PM, said:

So Rotary Autocannons for the IS
This can be the bane of every clan mech in the game.
A rapid firing "GATLING GUN"
Anyone who's seen A-10 Tank Killer footage in youtube knows how utterly DEVASTATING this weapon is. A lot of self indulgent weiners will want this weapon system not to come to the game for the selfish reason that it so many people used this weapon their skill rating will heavily suffer. I will admit I am a solid core IS player who has not bought a single clan mech since I started playing and relish the thought of hosing down Clan Battlemechs cockpits down with a rapid fire gun fire that can crack cockpits with some 12 shots.

But I have to be FAIR.
I have to get out the possiblity of me looking biased so we can speak freely without any accusations of me being one sided.

Let me be clear: I have played Battlefield 4 and Battlefield 3 online so some of the sources I cite regarding recoil control and balancing is taken from these two games.

Lets now talk of properly balancing the Rotary Autocannon:
First we have to get the definition right of what it does:



Now we know how deadly this weapon is and potentially unbalancing this is, in the end of the day in a quickplay match you would not want to face this weapon yourself.

So lets go into a quick discussion on how to "Balance" this weapon.

1. Spin up and spin down time: In our reality this weapon does not have any spin up time, because they are preloaded at the base to fire automatically, the spin up system allows the weapon to have a certain delay. There is a plan to implement this in game. My Personal thought on this is half good and half bad. Owing to the fact that mechanically this is now how the Gatling gun functions, bad you'd be dead from laser vomit in no time because laser Alpha strikes have no delay.

2. Heat per shot: This makes some sense in stopping players from boating this weapon. Allowing the mech to overheat, again laser boaters have gotten around this using smaller lasers and faster mechs.

3. Random number generator: This is used on UAC to make sure the fast firing system is not abused easily gotten around by using multiple weapons. In light of the RAC maybe they'll get around to adjusting the UAC since as compared to the nearly insane fire rate of the RAC this weapon feels more sane.

Now we get to my experience in Battlefield games to balance this rapid fire weapon.

3. Ballistic Spread: simply put the longer you hold down the fire button the larger the spread, this has been done well in battlefield games to make weapons feel different due the recoil.

4. Reload time AKA cool down time. Maybe PGI can incorporate simple magazine reload time where your have a micro "jam" very 100 rounds fired . to reload the RAC with a rapid fire magazine.

In summation
I suggest to balance the RAC is
1. Balistic spread to keep people from being too trigger happy...
2. Reload time reload every few hundred or so rounds.
3. Heat per shot

...

Play test it first, before you nerf it to the point the weapons are DOA.

The Jam mechanic alone can make it work, as well as spreading the damage in more shots like what was done with Clan UACs. In other words, if you have 5 damage, instead of one shot with 5 damage, it would have to fire 5 shots for 5 damage. In addition you already have slot and weight penalties, the weapon already weighing more and taking up more slots than UAC and AC equivalents.

By requiring more shots to do the same amount of damage, the weapon suffers from increased face time with the opponent.

Cone of fire and dispersion mechanics need a lot of tuning and play testing to get it to the right point where its just right. If you got too many "nerf" factors involved, the complexity of the fine tuning increases multiple fold with each variable introduced. In fact, all the game needs is just one single nerf factor to bring things down to the right level.

I am going to use an example from another game.

This other mech game utilizes cone of fire mechanics. The farther the mech is to its target, the lower the DPS, and the closer the mech is, the higher is the DPS. Compared to pulsating energy weapons which has steady damage across all ranges, the rotary autocannons on this game are considered inferior until you are nearly at point blank ranges. In fact, despite the way it looks, they are beginner's or low tier weapons. In fact they have been recently buffed (considered underperforming) by tightening the cone of fire and will soon get an accelerated burst mode. The cone of fire mechanism can be regarded as this game's nerf or buff variable for the weapon, it doesn't have any Jam at all, and has practically unlimited ammunition, though there is also a weapon cooldown which is expressed that the weapon will need to reload the next ammo catridge.

I do love the sound effects though and they are being tested with additional FX that would show the barrels glowing red when they enter into accelerated mode.

Edited by Anjian, 16 March 2017 - 06:15 PM.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Spool up should be maybe half a second, spool down a quarter second. Long enough to miss out on pot shots but hopefully short enough that with human reaction time the gun is still attached to a working mech when you can fire it.

Heat per shot, well this gets tricky due to how I feel it would be best to do RAC's. I feel RAC's should fire half damage rounds, making them a lot like Clan U/AC's so a RAC2 fires two shots, jams after 12 shots are fired, maybe 10? Double the ammo, half the heat per shot to compensate. As for jamming, flamer bar, gun heats up the longer it fires, barrels expand and ammo can't get loaded, has to cool down and the auto unjam device to be satisfied ammo loaded won't explode and will slide out the barrels.

Spool up and spool down could be cut to like .3 seconds (around human reaction time on average) and spool down at .25 seconds. Again it mostly just gives a window that makes it not so great for pot shots, but, it has say a mounting rate of fire as it spins so it is harder to keep track of how far along you are unless you peak at your barrel temp gauge. For cooling down you wouldn't get to keep firing due to spool down spool up times so you couldn't easily feather or macro the RAC's, but, their burst DPS and utility in a brawl or catching someone in the open would be amazing. Trading? Near Useless, might get 7.5 damage worth of rounds out compared to the likely high amount of incoming fire.

[Anjian]

I say just give it heat, and the hotter it gets, the higher the jam factor. There is also giving it less damage per round so it needs to fire more rounds for the equivalent damage.

I don't think it needs an outright spool --- it should already have steady though low damage right from the start but then the gun increases its firing rate to massive burst damage by pressing down the firing trigger in a prolonged fashion.

During burst mode, the barrels heat up with a red glow, which also a tell indicator sign that the weapon may also have an increased jamming rate. The mech should also heat up as well so there is inherent heat penalties. The heat generation is scaled to the rate of fire, lowest during steady fire, highest during burst fire.

If the mech is already hot from firing other weapons like lasers, that already adds to the chances of the guns jamming.

This way you utilize the existing mechanics in the game --- heat and jam chance which players are already familiar with. Adding cone of fire would require more coding as it adds a new system to the game that previously does not exist.

Edited by Anjian, 16 March 2017 - 06:33 PM.