90 replies to this topic

[Amaranth Panther]

Alexander Steel, on 19 March 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

The Grand Dragon is just the Dragon with 3050 tech and slightly different weapons, they look exactly the same. There is no reason to make it.

Although I think that the Grand Dragon is the favorite mech of the clan.

Sure there is (a reason, that is).

They add extra variants for chassis at least annually, and this would add something new for the Dragon chassis.

The thing's shorthand even classes it as a DRG-5K, from 3050. it's been available since several timeline creeps ago. It's prototype/predecessor is a DRG-1G, from 3040, no less. That's been way overdue as available.

This is easy mode. The longflong form name seems different, but the shorthand designators are the same. They can fold it right in with it's older-brother variants and make the geeks among us happy.

Not really a balance issue to be argued here, either. Even as a largely-energy boat, it's not going to be meta. Still has the same bad hitboxes, and the low-slung arm points have the same problems. The Grand Dragon(s?) would be strictly worse Quickdraws in most respects, emphasized that much more by the lack of JJs.

[Y E O N N E]

None of that really makes it do anything different. It's still the same chassis with close-enough weapons to a DRG-1C. Wants because wants is the only reason to want it in the game, and that's fine, but I would not even attempt to pitch it as being functionally distinct. If the Dragons had their high-mounted right arm, you might have had a case, but they don't.

[Bud Crue]

Amaranth Panther, on 19 March 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

Sure there is (a reason, that is).

Incoming Loyalty "reward" mech?

[Amaranth Panther]

Bud Crue, on 19 March 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

Incoming Loyalty "reward" mech?

Thought it, didn't want to jinx it by typing it. Also, the post seemed a little busy already

That would be ... hard ... because this is a strictly f2p account. Waiting a year or so would be kinda frustrating, but I'd be totally cool with having them in-game.

[NRP]

Alright I voted for this mech in Gas' poll. It was in 5th place at that time.

[FLG 01]

Well there are two aspects to consider, gameplay and canon/lore. In game, dual gauss in the arms plus ECM with this torso shape and these hardpoint positions is quite something.

As far as canon and lore goes, the Dragonfire has a strong presence in most of the FCCW core novels (and some of the preceding ones):

• Blood of Heroes
  
• Prince of Havoc
  
• Illusions of Victory
  
• Patriots and Tyrants
  
• Flashpoint
  
• Endgame

In those novels, a number of pilots are associated with it, including one that is the main character of the respective novel:

• Michael Searcy, Solaris VII (main character of Illusions of Victory)
  
• Aubry Larsen, Solaris VII
  
• Billy Dragomil, 9th Ghost Regiment
  
• Gerald DuBois, Fighting Urukhai
  
• Julie Hoffman, Alarion Jäger
  
• Baroness Monique Reins, 2nd Robinson Rangers
  
• Gerst, Kathil CMM
  
• (Plus a lot of unknown characters dying in their Dragonfires; it is a quite a common sight in the novels)

With a presence like this it is a valid addition to a FCCW-era game, be it TT or MWO. The pilots not be the A-list of BattleTech stars but we are still talking about very famous and storied A-class units here. Mind you, I have not yet searched the MechWarrior novels nor the BC stories. Also some more pilots can naturally be found in the TRO-entry and in the Jihad stories.
And please let us not pretend every HeroMech in MWO belongs to A-listers like Morgan Kell. We got some very obscure pilots with a lot less lore than most of the aforementioned Dragonfire pilots got.

Oh, and there is a canonically modified Dragonfire:
Searcy removed the ECM, replaced the Gauss with a Light Gauss, and the LB-10X with an LB-20X.



In the end, the Dragonfire would not be my first choice either. It is quite down on my list, but it is relevant and it could be very good in game.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

I'd rather see the last of the Classics arrive, real Star League Mechs (TRO 2750, not the retconned and added crap, like most of tro 3058)

To be fair, most of the Star League Mechs in TRO:3058 were not introduced by TRO:3058, merely republished. In the years after TRO:2750 FASA had been adding SL-era Mechs left and right through various scenario packs. My favourite assault for example, the Spartan, was first published in Rhonda's Irregulars (1991).

TRO:3058 gathered those previously disparately published Mechs in one neat publication. Curious fun fact, when TRO:2750 was translated into German, they simply put those Mechs in there because they felt that was the better place. As I grew up with this translation, Mechs like Spector or Excalibur are 2750-Mechs for me.

Edited by FLG 01, 19 March 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Amaranth Panther]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 08:18 AM, said:

None of that really makes it do anything different. It's still the same chassis with close-enough weapons to a DRG-1C. Wants because wants is the only reason to want it in the game, and that's fine, but I would not even attempt to pitch it as being functionally distinct. If the Dragons had their high-mounted right arm, you might have had a case, but they don't.

Pretty sure I wasn't trying to pitch it for functional difference, so much as a little more variety in the chassis.

Variant Collector Online is a thing for some folks on their favorite chassis.

DRG-1C certainly does anything the engergy boats would do, and probably better, because of the high-mounted left shoulder energy.

As mentioned in my initial post, not meta, but new but new for the chassis. As you mentioned, not really super new game play.

Just something because "hey neat."

[Y E O N N E]

Amaranth Panther, on 19 March 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:

Pretty sure I wasn't trying to pitch it for functional difference, so much as a little more variety in the chassis.

Variant Collector Online is a thing for some folks on their favorite chassis.

DRG-1C certainly does anything the engergy boats would do, and probably better, because of the high-mounted left shoulder energy.

As mentioned in my initial post, not meta, but new but new for the chassis. As you mentioned, not really super new game play.

Just something because "hey neat."

I do not think it is unfair of me to define "interesting" as "does something significantly unique for the chassis," and it is that definition against which I am judging the Grand Dragon and, going back to the origin and context of this discussion: Bishop's statement about wanting 'Mechs that aren't boring and that add something.

Basically, "hey neat" does not seem adequate enough to add a 'Mech, especially just as a variant. Even the Loyalty 'Mechs have been unique to their chassis.

[Amaranth Panther]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

I do not think it is unfair of me to define "interesting" as "does something significantly unique for the chassis," and it is that definition against which I am judging the Grand Dragon and, going back to the origin and context of this discussion: Bishop's statement about wanting 'Mechs that aren't boring and that add something.

Basically, "hey neat" does not seem adequate enough to add a 'Mech, especially just as a variant. Even the Loyalty 'Mechs have been unique to their chassis.

You're welcome to define it that way for the purpose of sorting your own conception of worth/value/etc.

Bishop is welcome to clarify for himself but I suspect, on my reading, that "does something significantly unique for the chassis," is more narrow a criteria than his, and that your "significant" may be more narrow in and of itself.

<o

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

Speaking of boring and not adding much...

Grand Dragon is a lore addition, and a solid 6/9 60 tonner. The Lancelot is also a 6/9 cavalry Mech with some diversity, with a version with energy, another with ballistics, one with JJ, etc, and the arm s are high mounted as are the torso guns. Would seem to add a fair bit, to me.

Hamnerhands is another lore favorite, nothing splashy, but solid enough. I'd take the Lancelot over the Dragonfire for adding something to the game.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

Grand Dragon is a lore addition, and a solid 6/9 60 tonner. The Lancelot is also a 6/9 cavalry Mech with some diversity, with a version with energy, another with ballistics, one with JJ, etc, and the arm s are high mounted as are the torso guns. Would seem to add a fair bit, to me.

Hamnerhands is another lore favorite, nothing splashy, but solid enough. I'd take the Lancelot over the Dragonfire for adding something to the game.

Grand Dragon = Dragon in MWO, wish they would fix the right arm on the latter because I love Dragons.

Lancelot = Rifleman

Hammerhands = Warhammer with ballistics and energy switched.

If you want them for lore, that's fine. Yes, they will be solid. That out of the way I do not think it's fair to say that they are any less boring than the DFire or that they would add more to the game.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

Grand Dragon = Dragon in MWO, wish they would fix the right arm on the latter because I love Dragons.

Lancelot = Rifleman

Hammerhands = Warhammer with ballistics and energy switched.

If you want them for lore, that's fine. Yes, they will be solid. That out of the way I do not think it's fair to say that they are any less boring than the DFire or that they would add more to the game.

Rifleman didn't do 6/9 base movent, more are it's torsos HARDPOINTS as high. Lancelot is actually a very good fast laser vomit, which is something the IS could use. The fact you're comparing it to a Rifleman tells me you really haven't examined it that deeply.

[FupDup]

For the Rifleman vs. Lance debate, here is the big important difference:

Rifleman: 290 engine cap

Lancelot: 400 engine cap


Most people won't go anywhere near 400 for obvious reasons, but even in the 325-350 range helps laser boats a lot. More speed, more agility, more heatsinks.

Edited by FupDup, 19 March 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

Rifleman didn't do 6/9 base movent, more are it's torsos HARDPOINTS as high. Lancelot is actually a very good fast laser vomit, which is something the IS could use. The fact you're comparing it to a Rifleman tells me you really haven't examined it that deeply.

What I know about the Lancelot is a 60 ton 'Mech that has energy hardpoints in about the same place and quantity as the RFL-5D. So it can run fast at the cost of basically being a Medium, I suppose that is unique enough.

What about the other two? I have examined both of those; the Grand Dragon has one variant with MASC that might be entertaining but nothing else. Hammerhands is a snooze with all of the same drawbacks as the Warhammer and less of its strengths and nothing interesting whatsoever in terms of physical ability.

FupDup, on 19 March 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

Most people won't go anywhere near 400 for obvious reasons, but even in the 325-350 range helps laser boats a lot. More speed, more agility, more heatsinks.

Not at 60 tons it doesn't. The only engine you would want for an energy boat is 300, and what that does is buy you one single heat-sink to go with 3xLL+5xML if you are going for the IS vomit cheese. The 325 has no value there, it's too heavy.

The value of the big engine on the Lancelot is that you can drive around at Storm Crow or BJ-1X speeds...but you'll have a BJ-1X payload, too, so while it is unique and probably solid it's a waste of tonnage as far as the meta goes. You'll find more people pop-tarting with it at that speed than anything else.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 19 March 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

For the Rifleman vs. Lance debate, here is the big important difference:

Rifleman: 290 engine cap

Lancelot: 400 engine cap


Most people won't go anywhere near 400 for obvious reasons, but even in the 325-350 range helps laser boats a lot. More speed, more agility, more heatsinks.

Exactly. Super fast for weight, high hard points, laser vomit with lots of room for heatsinks and should be pretty slender.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 March 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Not at 60 tons it doesn't. The only engine you would want for an energy boat is 300, and what that does is buy you one single heat-sink to go with 3xLL+5xML if you are going for the IS vomit cheese. The 325 has no value there, it's too heavy.

The value of the big engine on the Lancelot is that you can drive around at Storm Crow or BJ-1X speeds...but you'll have a BJ-1X payload, too, so while it is unique and probably solid it's a waste of tonnage as far as the meta goes. You'll find more people pop-tarting with it at that speed than anything else.

And the Rifleman can't use that 300 engine.

Edited by FupDup, 19 March 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 19 March 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

And the Rifleman can't use that 300 engine.

It doesn't need to, though, it's not enough of a difference-maker to be make or break being meta-worthy. The Lancelot's real value is the variant with JJs (LNC25-01X), but there's also a RFL variant with JJs (RFL-8D).

There's also a RFL variant with a bigger stock engine (RFL-6X, XL300, as it were).

Edit:
And after building it out, you can't actually get one more DHS using the 300 in a laser vomit 60 ton 'Mech without LAA. You come up one slot short and have to sacrifice a DHS or MedLas anyway.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 March 2017 - 12:48 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

Exactly. Super fast for weight, high hard points, laser vomit with lots of room for heatsinks and should be pretty slender.

Isn't this why god created the Quickdraw 5K? Big engine 4 high energy hard points. Jump jets. Sure, torso vs arms of Lancelot, but really is there much need at 60 tons for much over a 350? Don't get me wrong I like the idea of the Lancelot, but frankly that would be for aesthetic potential not for being particularly novel or even useful (given how slender it is I would expect it to by Grasshopper-ish in height to boot.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bud Crue, on 19 March 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

Isn't this why god created the Quickdraw 5K? Big engine 4 high energy hard points. Jump jets. Sure, torso vs arms of Lancelot, but really is there much need at 60 tons for much over a 350? Don't get me wrong I like the idea of the Lancelot, but frankly that would be for aesthetic potential not for being particularly novel or even useful (given how slender it is I would expect it to by Grasshopper-ish in height to boot.

Low arms and nowhere near as fast, plus brick box hit boxes. Not remotely the same.

[Bud Crue]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 March 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

Low arms and nowhere near as fast, plus brick box hit boxes. Not remotely the same.

Not suggesting they are the same just similar in role in this game.

As to the speed, a 360 vs a 400? If you actually push it to the max and go for that 400 its 10 tons more than the 360 (biggest I run in any of my QDs is a 355 and that gives me not a whole lot of free tonnage after armor and JJs, etc. I think I have 16.5 tons for weapons on that build). So I suppose you could make a faster Lancelot but given the tonnage cost I would think a lighter mech is going to be a better choice. But to each his own.

As to the hard point height, Yes, the QDs arms are terrible but the 5Ks 4 torso E points are similar in relative CP height to the arms hard points of the Rifleman. And I would expect the Lancelots arm points to be similar. I'd change my view if the Lancelot had a bunch more hardpoints however, but based on the old TT configs I would expect it to be pretty limited in number as well. Though I'd be pleasantly surprised if they made a Lancelot with better/more points I just don't expect such a thing.

Cest la. I'd welcome the Lancelot but I can't imagine building it much different than I build a 5K or it having a significantly different role.

For my nostalgia fix but also for a desire to have something different I'd prefer to see something like the Hammerhands you mentioned.