409 replies to this topic

[Inappropriate1]

Run the fix.

[Ninjah]

Well negative reviews are piling up, PGI should get worried. It's never been this bad since it came out on the Steam.

[Zergling]

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 04:01 PM, said:

A whole lot more heat sink, maybe. We have to, to keep our weapons cooler because they're hotter. Light doesn't come without a price. I think you need to consider more factors [Redacted].

He's right though, and despite the hotter Clan weapons, Clans still come off as better.


Compare the 65 tonner with the strongest -Energy Heat Generation quirk, the Thunderbolt 5SS, with 3x Large and 4x Medium Lasers, with 18 double heat sinks and 71 kph top speed.
Versus the Ebon Jaguar, running 2x Large Pulse and 4x ER Medium Lasers, with 25 double heat sinks and 81 kph top speed.

The Thunderbolt, thanks to its +10% energy range quirk, has an effective range of 297 meters, and firing a single alpha does 47 damage at the cost of 34.85 heat.
The Thunderbolt also dissipates 3.68 heat per second, with a maximum heat cap of 68, so a single alpha will bring it to 51.25% heat, and it will take 9.47 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.

The Ebon Jaguar has an effective range of 405 meters, and firing a single alpha does 54 damage at the cost of 44.00 heat.
The Ebon Jaguar also dissipates 4.89 heat per second, with a maximum heat cap of 78.5, so a single alpha will bring it to 56.05% heat, and it will take 9.00 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.

The Thunderbolt has a maximum DPS of 12.97 (thanks to -15% energy cooldown quirks) and a sustained DPS of 5.50.
The Ebon Jaguar has a maximum DPS of 12.70 and a sustained DPS of 5.99.


End result? The Ebon Jaguar has a 9% advantage in sustained DPS, 15% advantage in alpha damage, 14% top speed advantage and 36% advantage in effective range.

Edited by draiocht, 22 March 2017 - 12:48 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Lichtsteiner]

lol don't care anything about the "bias" conversation................

PGI-just try to sell me another clan mech that you will nerf and I wont be able to put in a drop deck...............gl

[Grus]

Zergling, on 21 March 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

He's right though, and despite the hotter Clan weapons, Clans still come off as better.


Compare the 65 tonner with the strongest -Energy Heat Generation quirk, the Thunderbolt 5SS, with 3x Large and 4x Medium Lasers, with 18 double heat sinks and 71 kph top speed.
Versus the Ebon Jaguar, running 2x Large Pulse and 4x ER Medium Lasers, with 25 double heat sinks and 81 kph top speed.

The Thunderbolt, thanks to its +10% energy range quirk, has an effective range of 297 meters, and firing a single alpha does 47 damage at the cost of 34.85 heat.
The Thunderbolt also dissipates 3.68 heat per second, with a maximum heat cap of 68, so a single alpha will bring it to 51.25% heat, and it will take 9.47 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.

The Ebon Jaguar has an effective range of 405 meters, and firing a single alpha does 54 damage at the cost of 44.00 heat.
The Ebon Jaguar also dissipates 4.89 heat per second, with a maximum heat cap of 78.5, so a single alpha will bring it to 56.05% heat, and it will take 9.00 seconds to dissipate the heat from a single alpha.

The Thunderbolt has a maximum DPS of 12.97 (thanks to -15% energy cooldown quirks) and a sustained DPS of 5.50.
The Ebon Jaguar has a maximum DPS of 12.70 and a sustained DPS of 5.99.


End result? The Ebon Jaguar has a 9% advantage in sustained DPS, 15% advantage in alpha damage, 14% top speed advantage and 36% advantage in effective range.

oh good god that ebon is gonna cost so much to fit out..

[Edward Hazen]

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

I think you're forgetting to mention the fact that your Thunderbolt is also zombie. And why are you comparing standard IS LL to Clan LPL?

Also, IS mechs can fire three LL/ERLL/LPL at the same time without ghost heat, while Clans can only fire two. On top of this, the IS lasers have shorter burn times and faster rates of fire, while the Clan weapons do slightly more damage and have a longer range.

[Zergling]

Grus, on 21 March 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

oh good god that ebon is gonna cost so much to fit out..

It's a fun laser vomit build, just make sure you put the ER Medium in the left torso in first, so that the two Large Pulses are in the high shoulder mount.

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:

I think you're forgetting to mention the fact that your Thunderbolt is also zombie. And why are you comparing standard IS LL to Clan LPL?

The Thunderbolt does not have strong structure or armor quirks. All but the Top Dog all have just +10 LT/RT structure.
The Top Dog does have better structure quirks, but it only has a single 10% energy range quirk; nothing for cooldown or heat generation.

As for why I'm comparing IS Large Laser to Clan Large Pulse, they are fairly comparable too in beam duration, and making builds with IS Large Pulse results in worse DPS and top speed, which makes IS look even worse.
And the faster duration of the IS Large Pulse isn't very useful when it is being run with Medium Lasers, as the alpha will still have to be held on target for 0.90 seconds for full damage.

Eg, here's the Thunderbolt 5SS with 3x Large Pulse and 4x Medium Laser. It had to drop from 71 kph to 66 kph, and from 18 to 15 heat sinks.
Despite the more powerful Large Pulse Lasers, it drops from 5.50 sustained DPS to 5.33.

It can go even slower by using a 255 rated engine, resulting in 63.6 kph top speed to get a heat sink back though, which brings sustained DPS up to 5.62.

Edited by Zergling, 21 March 2017 - 04:45 PM.

[Zergling]

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 04:38 PM, said:

Ugh, no. I'm talking about the standard engine.

There's no practical difference between an IS standard engine and a Clan XL. PGI's nerfings have made little difference to the combat effectiveness of the Clan XL.


Note that a LFE would be identical to a Clan XL in functionality. The original Thunderbolt 5SS build I posted above with a 285 Standard could swap that to a 315 Light, improving speed from 71 to 78.5 kph.

(the build only has 2 slots free, and a LFE would cost 4 slots, but a 315 rated engine has space for one more heat sink, so it could move a heat sink to the engine to gain space for the LFE upgrade; the build would end up with 1 slot free).

But it would not gain any more heat sinks, so would still be inferior to the Ebon Jaguar.

EDIT: wait, forgot increased Gyro weight, that's another 0.5 tons. It could swap to a 310 Light, increasing speed from 71 to 77.3 kph.

Edited by Zergling, 21 March 2017 - 05:11 PM.

[SuperFunkTron]

So are there any thoughts on how the game plays after the patch or is it still a battle of balance ideas here?

[Wraith Darkstar]

Not a fan of most of the changes, bad enough that there is a 100 ton difference between drop decks now we get to have what little advantages we had nerfed. Gotta love when they remove "Tactics" from a tactical game. Then theres the spread changes on all the missle systems. Really lets nerf the lrm5 ive seen a single ams system shoot down every missle that 6lrm5 could shoot, the worst part was that mech wasnt even the target. I think ya'll need to get back to the base of this game...clans get the advantage of tech and the inner sphere gets numbers....lots and lots of numbers.

[Zergling]

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Except that if a torso gets taken off you lose no cooling or speed with the standard engine.

The cooling matters little, as almost all Clan mechs are going to be losing a chunk of heat generating weapons at the same time.

Speed loss? That is a penalty, but only a fairly minor one, not nearly enough to offset the numerous advantages the Ebon Jaguar has over the Thunderbolt.

Schrollski, on 21 March 2017 - 05:13 PM, said:

Edit: Also, you can survive without torsos.

Which is meaningless, as the Thunderbolt would be completely disarmed if it lost both side torsos. A mech with no weapons is effectively dead, which is why a mech dying after losing both side torsos is not a disadvantage for Clan XLs.

And note again: even with a LFE, the Thunderbolt is still inferior. The same goes for the earlier Black Knight vs Timber Wolf comparison.

Wraith Darkstar, on 21 March 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

I think ya'll need to get back to the base of this game...clans get the advantage of tech and the inner sphere gets numbers....lots and lots of numbers.

MWO has never been like that, nor will it ever be. Asymmetric balance is a nightmare for developers and almost never works in practice.

Edited by Zergling, 21 March 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[Jagd Wolf]

Is anyone else experiencing problems sending text messages before scouting matches?

[HUNTERS MOON]

Still can't patch. Don't want to play now but may in the future so its no big deal. Peace out!

[ALEXANDER CARLYLE]

Wow. Anger and salt.

[Cpt Contego]

ALEXANDER CARLYLE, on 21 March 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

Wow. Anger and salt.

Non pro clanners having a cry because they need to start actually using tactics to win rather than just sheer firepower and range.

Edit: I thought I should actually put something constructive in this comment - What most Clan players seem to forget when they start whining about the weapons all being balanced via heat is the pure fact that your engagement range is in most cases much longer than ours, so by the time we are just getting in range to do minimum damage, we have already taken a beating by your weapons that are already out dps'ing ours due to range factors. Yeah ok in optimal ranges I'll agree it's slowly becoming manageable for us, but when is that ever the case trekking across places like Polar, Alpine, Tourmaline, Grim etc? Not one single map heavily favours IS in the Faction Play map list, yet over half heavily favor Clan, whilst the rest give a little advantage to Clan or (Terra) equal advantage to both.

Edited by El Contego, 21 March 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

El Contego, on 21 March 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Non pro clanners having a cry because they need to start actually using tactics to win rather than just sheer firepower and range.

Yeah, like all the non-pro IS players who whine to nerf Clans and get better quirks because they don't know how to use "tactics" to overcome the "superior" firepower. Comments like yours cement my resolve to remain a Clan loyalist, even if Clan Mechs get nerfed into walking jokes.

[Zergling]

Edward Hazen, on 21 March 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

Comments like yours cement my resolve to remain a Clan loyalist, even if Clan Mechs get nerfed into walking jokes.

I recommend playing both factions. Using mechs from both factions leads to a better understanding of their relative strengths and weaknesses, leading to you becoming a better player.

[Edward Hazen]

Zergling, on 21 March 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

I recommend playing both factions. Using mechs from both factions leads to a better understanding of their relative strengths and weaknesses, leading to you becoming a better player.

I actually have and I have played since 2012 on various accounts, I have seen all the buffs and nerfs. I have played FW as IS and seen clans get mowed down with IS ERLLs getting fired three at a time from multiple Stalkers and Tbolts. Seriously, I would be ok if the patch was just an increased chance of my components getting crit, but what I saw tonight when I played, was not that, it was like my armor was not even there, two machine gun hits and my ERPPC was gone, a PPC shot to my full armored torso and I lose a heatsink. I am hoping it is just a bug.

Edited by Edward Hazen, 21 March 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[Zergling]

Edward Hazen, on 21 March 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

I actually have and I have played since 2012 on various accounts, I have seen all the buffs and nerfs. I have played FW as IS and seen clans get mowed down with IS ERLLs getting fired three at a time from multiple Stalkers and Tbolts. Seriously, I would be ok if the patch was just an increased chance of my components getting crit, but what I saw tonight when I played, was not that, it was like my armor was not even there, two machine gun hits and my ERPPC was gone, a PPC shot to my full armored torso and I lose a heatsink. I am hoping it is just a bug.

Likely confirmation bias at work; armor and structure values weren't touched.

EDIT: yeah, I just took my Warhawk out, had a side torso opened and took laser fire to my internals... didn't lose a single heat sink, despite that torso being full of them.

Edited by Zergling, 21 March 2017 - 10:26 PM.

[Cpt Contego]

Edward Hazen, on 21 March 2017 - 08:36 PM, said:

Yeah, like all the non-pro IS players who whine to nerf Clans and get better quirks because they don't know how to use "tactics" to overcome the "superior" firepower. Comments like yours cement my resolve to remain a Clan loyalist, even if Clan Mechs get nerfed into walking jokes.

[Redacted] cements my reason to keep arguing for a balanced game play.

Edited by draiocht, 22 March 2017 - 12:50 AM.
insult