221 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 March 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

Very true, we also dont know how hard it is to do what PGI does,

yes yes anyone can say well i would do A / B / C, and everyone would be happy,
but the Truth is they wouldnt be, you cant make everyone happy, which is why it can be hard,

its easy of us to say Change this or that and it will make the game better,
but we dont always know best, some times nether does PGI, but they are Trying,
this is a Business, they are in it to make money, which means they are in it to keep the players happy,
Why? because happy players Pay money, unhappy players dont,

we as a comunity have to stop this All our nothing Nuke & Boot view of things,
if X or Y changes then im ganna delete my account, im not playing any more!!!
we have to stop acting like Children, and work to make this community better,

i hate to go off topic but a player in FP SubForum made a Topic asking what FP was about,
and if some one could walk him threw it so he could be a valued member of a FP team even when Soloing,
Said player was call all sorts of names for Asking questions that othesr Deemed too Ovious,

we need to Grow as a Community, and Better our selfs,
we need to find what it means to Love BattleTech and MechWarrior,
we have to Bring others in so they can share our Love for this Series,
if not we will end up pushing our selves and MWO into Extinction,

Thank you,

This.

No decision, change, or release that PGI has made has appeased every single player. There has ALWAYS been a group that do not like whatever decision was made or what content was released.

More maps? Someone complains they're bad or older ones needed rework.

More Mechs? Someone complains that PGI is just money grubbing with mech packs again and/or they should work on maps/FW/other content instead.

New game mode? People complain its not what they asked for and the mode (albeit escort really does need some work) is garbage, that FP needs more work, they should make new maps, or that they need to focus on balance.

New game mechanics? People complain that they break the game simply because it is different, may work against their playstyle or meta, or because it changes the way their time was invested into the game. (skill tree needs fine tuning still, but its a far better mechanic than the garbage placeholder we have and the 'quirkpocalypse' we got, allowing players to choose how to basically 'quirk' their mechs based on choice and not lock them into specific builds being 'better' because of inherent quirks.)

Edited by MauttyKoray, 19 March 2017 - 11:01 AM.

[InspectorG]

Mcgral18, on 18 March 2017 - 09:19 PM, said:

Tree Traversal algorithms must be LosTech™

Did someone say...'Transverse'?

MechaBattler, on 18 March 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

Was it frustrating? Were you triggered? Hug?

No, no hug for you. They were revamps. But they were also nerfs. It's called balance.

No.

Its called a repeat of history.

Look at the Rescale.

Nova and Catapult are very nice now.

And light mechs over 30 tons got screwed.

Revamp?

Balance?

[MechaBattler]

Nightmare1, on 19 March 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

Not at all. Once again, you're cherry picking my words. I said in my post that I was actually looking forward to the skill tree. I wasn't one of the ones who advocated for killing it. I simply wanted PGI to get it right.

I had already accepted the fact that it would be implemented imperfectly, and just wanted PGI to continue to work on it post-implementation as a kind of continuous improvement. All I am doing here on this thread is positing my own theory as to why the community at large reacted the way that it did.

...But you, the butt-hurt, can continue to cherry pick and twist my words as much as you like if that is what soothes your bruised ego. I'm good with that too.

Why would I need to do a point by point analysis of what you said? That's crazy. Most of what you said is invalidated by just how crazy it is that you felt "insulted" by the "surprise" of them adding other things to test. The very principal of your argument is flawed. So why would I need to address every single thing? I mean do I have to do a treatise on how different STO is? I don't think it's necessary. : /

[MechaBattler]

InspectorG, on 19 March 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

Did someone say...'Transverse'?



No.

Its called a repeat of history.

Look at the Rescale.

Nova and Catapult are very nice now.

And light mechs over 30 tons got screwed.

Revamp?

Balance?

It was a uniform rescale. They didn't try to make them bad. They went by volume. It's just that size is in a bad spot where they're easier to hit, but can't take advantage of their weight in the light class range. They did do it for balance. But unfortunately going by the math screwed over 35 tonners. If there's anything to blame them for in that regard is not doing anything after the fact to improve on their situation. Which I agree, they need to do something for them.

[InspectorG]

Dimento Graven, on 19 March 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

If, within a few hours of play, you're not able to add several million to your bank, you have absolutely got to be doing something wrong.

It's not 'arrogance', it's the voice of authority.

Hate to break it to you, but look at the damage scores post match and tell me the average player in Solo clears a million Cbills in an hour or two.

I used to play 3 hours a night and easily clear millions with Premium Time from my mechpack buys.

At 5 matches per hour, 150k per match = 750k cbills per hour without using Heros. With my X-5 or Invasion Dire? Millions were little problem.

I play maybe 3 hours a week now and between being rusty and leveling up the select few mechs ill keep post new Skill Tree, i can tell you, your 'Authority' is either over stated, or wrongly assumed.

New player or me being rusty in an unbasic'd Brawler mech(lets say i really suck): 15 matches at 80k per match = 1.2M Cbills per WEEK.

2 WEEKS for a 3M Cbill Module?

New Locust?

How much is a Heavy Clan mech or upgraded IS Heavy?

[InspectorG]

MechaBattler, on 19 March 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

It was a uniform rescale. They didn't try to make them bad. They went by volume. It's just that size is in a bad spot where they're easier to hit, but can't take advantage of their weight in the light class range. They did do it for balance. But unfortunately going by the math screwed over 35 tonners. If there's anything to blame them for in that regard is not doing anything after the fact to improve on their situation. Which I agree, they need to do something for them.

Bigger problem, IMO, is that a game developer that makes a FPS, chose Volume(instead of Surface Area...what you are shooting at) in the first place.

The concept and math werent wrong or even bad.

They didnt understand their product and picked the wrong metric.

It would be like when i was welding and my boss gave me materials and blueprints to fabricate something but i used Metric instead of English with no conversion.
The widget would likely come out correctly, but wrong size/scale.

And size/scale are pretty important to things with few HP in a FPS.

[MechaBattler]

InspectorG, on 19 March 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Bigger problem, IMO, is that a game developer that makes a FPS, chose Volume(instead of Surface Area...what you are shooting at) in the first place.

The concept and math werent wrong or even bad.

They didnt understand their product and picked the wrong metric.

It would be like when i was welding and my boss gave me materials and blueprints to fabricate something but i used Metric instead of English with no conversion.
The widget would likely come out correctly, but wrong size/scale.

And size/scale are pretty important to things with few HP in a FPS.

I get the feeling they went with what would make the least work for them, but still be uniform. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing assaults, heavies, and mediums go smaller.

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 19 March 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

I get the feeling they went with what would make the least work for them, but still be uniform. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing assaults, heavies, and mediums go smaller.

If mediums went smaller, they would literally be smaller than 35-ton lights.

[Nightmare1]

MechaBattler, on 19 March 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

Why would I need to do a point by point analysis of what you said? That's crazy. Most of what you said is invalidated by just how crazy it is that you felt "insulted" by the "surprise" of them adding other things to test. The very principal of your argument is flawed. So why would I need to address every single thing? I mean do I have to do a treatise on how different STO is? I don't think it's necessary. : /

Once again, twisting my words while tossing in an ad hominem attack. And for what? I personally stated an opinion, which you apparently dislike immensely, which reflected my view of why the skill tree revamp folded in on itself. It was not actually intended to be an indictment of PGI nor was it meant to be a quarrel with anyone. Another poster and myself were just chatting back and forth, and then you interjected yourself half-way through the conversation, cherry picked the phrases which suited your purpose, twisted the ones that did not fit, and then came at me forum-guns-blazing.

It's actually somewhat laughable.

As for treatises, of course I wouldn't expect someone like you to have one. That wasn't the point at all. In fact, you didn't have to reply to any of my posts since none of them were directed at you. It was simply a discussion between me and Bud Crue.

Go ahead and rage though and get it all out of your system. The sooner you butt-hurts types get over your perceived injuries, the sooner the rest of us can go back to business as usual.

InspectorG, on 19 March 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

Hate to break it to you, but look at the damage scores post match and tell me the average player in Solo clears a million Cbills in an hour or two.

I used to play 3 hours a night and easily clear millions with Premium Time from my mechpack buys.

At 5 matches per hour, 150k per match = 750k cbills per hour without using Heros. With my X-5 or Invasion Dire? Millions were little problem.

I play maybe 3 hours a week now and between being rusty and leveling up the select few mechs ill keep post new Skill Tree, i can tell you, your 'Authority' is either over stated, or wrongly assumed.

New player or me being rusty in an unbasic'd Brawler mech(lets say i really suck): 15 matches at 80k per match = 1.2M Cbills per WEEK.

2 WEEKS for a 3M Cbill Module?

New Locust?

How much is a Heavy Clan mech or upgraded IS Heavy?

Here, I already did the calculations:

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Now have fun you two!

[Bud Crue]

Nightmare1, on 19 March 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Once again, twisting my words while tossing in an ad hominem attack. And for what? I personally stated an opinion, which you apparently dislike immensely, which reflected my view of why the skill tree revamp folded in on itself. It was not actually intended to be an indictment of PGI nor was it meant to be a quarrel with anyone. Another poster and myself were just chatting back and forth, and then you interjected yourself half-way through the conversation, cherry picked the phrases which suited your purpose, twisted the ones that did not fit, and then came at me forum-guns-blazing.

It's actually somewhat laughable.

As for treatises, of course I wouldn't expect someone like you to have one. That wasn't the point at all. In fact, you didn't have to reply to any of my posts since none of them were directed at you. It was simply a discussion between me and Bud Crue.

Go ahead and rage though and get it all out of your system. The sooner you butt-hurts types get over your perceived injuries, the sooner the rest of us can go back to business as usual.

Wait, what happened now? We're quarreling and inditing PGI? Sweet! Count me in! If we win will they fix the skills tree UI and leave my crap mechs alone? If that's the case I'll take it all the way to the supremes if need be! Pro bono even!

[Ted Wayz]

MauttyKoray, on 19 March 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

This.

No decision, change, or release that PGI has made has appeased every single player. There has ALWAYS been a group that do not like whatever decision was made or what content was released.

But PGI has a better chance of appeasing the paying customers if they work with players on the big decisions. Companies with a track record of making decisions that please their players do not need this help. PGI has proven time and time again that they really need our help.

PGI's arrogance and well documented "we know best" attitude is shocking given their lack of success. Arrogance alone does not equate to good decisions.

And the flip side to what you are saying? There will always be people there to defend bad decisions. Go back 16 months and look at those that thought the World Championship was a good idea and use of resources.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 19 March 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

InspectorG, on 19 March 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

Bigger problem, IMO, is that a game developer that makes a FPS, chose Volume(instead of Surface Area...what you are shooting at) in the first place.

The concept and math werent wrong or even bad.

They didnt understand their product and picked the wrong metric.

It would be like when i was welding and my boss gave me materials and blueprints to fabricate something but i used Metric instead of English with no conversion.
The widget would likely come out correctly, but wrong size/scale.

And size/scale are pretty important to things with few HP in a FPS.

Actually no, they used the correct measurement. You don't make a size comparison based on weight spread over surface area, you do it based on volume.

HOWEVER, another way of looking at it would be to strip the equipment and look at the mech's bare tonnage versus their maximum tonnage which is simply their weight limit for carrying additional equipment.

Examples (leaving the engine in)
Max/Bare tonnage
Commando - 25/13
Firestarter - 35/23
Vindicator - 45/22.5
Centurion - 50/25
Jagermech - 65/34
Marauder - 75/46
Victor - 80/61
Atlas - 100/56

It may not be right, and it even raises some question, however it makes certain BT scale picture look a bit more reasonable without even looking at clans which I know has a pretty good lore sizing picture for the original invasion mechs.

[MechaBattler]

Nightmare1, on 19 March 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Once again, twisting my words while tossing in an ad hominem attack. And for what? I personally stated an opinion, which you apparently dislike immensely, which reflected my view of why the skill tree revamp folded in on itself. It was not actually intended to be an indictment of PGI nor was it meant to be a quarrel with anyone. Another poster and myself were just chatting back and forth, and then you interjected yourself half-way through the conversation, cherry picked the phrases which suited your purpose, twisted the ones that did not fit, and then came at me forum-guns-blazing.

It's actually somewhat laughable.

As for treatises, of course I wouldn't expect someone like you to have one. That wasn't the point at all. In fact, you didn't have to reply to any of my posts since none of them were directed at you. It was simply a discussion between me and Bud Crue.

Go ahead and rage though and get it all out of your system. The sooner you butt-hurts types get over your perceived injuries, the sooner the rest of us can go back to business as usual.




Here, I already did the calculations:

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Now have fun you two!

Twisting your words. A.K.A. reasoning. You have fun with that.

[InspectorG]

MauttyKoray, on 19 March 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

Actually no, they used the correct measurement. You don't make a size comparison based on weight spread over surface area, you do it based on volume.

No. A mech's volume has little impact on you aligning your reticle over an area and tallying damage.

FPS =/= real life.

You are correct about weight/surface area...in real life.

You forget that MWO is played in a virtual 3d environment viewed on a 2d screen.

Surface Area is most appropriate for a FPS because that is how you arrive to scoring damage(the main objective). You align a 2d reticle over a 2d silhouette. Volume only matters for spacial relationships BETWEEN objects on a terrain.

Also, as a result, Armless mechs pay a penalty on CT/ST volume increase. Because volume. A mech like a Cicada, who has tiny arms pays extra volume on torso/legs in a game that values shield arms.
Humanoid forms get a benefit, Bug mechs lose out unless they are really tall or have fat legs. Jenner, Cicada, etc... pay a volume cost that affects them because they need speed to survive because they dont have he HP.
Stalkers arent hurt as much because they rely on high hardpoints/range and HP for durability.

Again, right math, wrong application. MWO =/= real life.

[Weeny Machine]

Mystere, on 19 March 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

It's about good clean design. But I guess you wouldn't know anything about that as you seem to just accept what is given to you.

Nope, but I am a realist. If you expect a clean, polished design from PGI and throw a tantrum each time you do not get it, then you are delusional and a prime candidate for a stomach ulcer. So dry your tears, belt up your diapers and accept that you are simply dealing with the wrong company if that's what you crave because it seems they are simply incapable to deliver such a thing - be it because of skill power or manpower. Whatever...

On top of that, there were much more severe problems in the skill tree. If you need to work yourself up because it is not a "good clean design", then you simply want to throw a fit at any cost. Which brings us back full circle to being a spoilt brat

[Nightmare1]

Bud Crue, on 19 March 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

Wait, what happened now? We're quarreling and inditing PGI? Sweet! Count me in! If we win will they fix the skills tree UI and leave my crap mechs alone? If that's the case I'll take it all the way to the supremes if need be! Pro bono even!

*Chuckle*

[FupDup]

Bush Hopper, on 19 March 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

Nope, but I am a realist. If you expect a clean, polished design from PGI and throw a tantrum each time you do not get it, then you are delusional and a prime candidate for a stomach ulcer. So dry your tears, belt up your diapers and accept that you are simply dealing with the wrong company if that's what you crave because it seems they are simply incapable to deliver such a thing - be it because of skill power or manpower. Whatever...

The real power they're lacking is willpower.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 19 March 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

The real power they're lacking is willpower.

It's easier to defer to laziness when the work is "too hard".

[Fleeb the Mad]

I'm curious about one thing.

Who doesn't move modules and engines around? Is that not the norm?

Each mech can take 3-5 modules, which cost on the order of 10-20M C-bills per chassis. That's generally more than it costs for DHS, Endo and an engine change on a new mech. Sometimes more than it costs to do those things and buy the chassis outright. The only time I've ever bought multiples of modules were for drop decks.

I don't purposefully collect mechs, though I've accumulated a hundred different machines. I've bought many mech packs, but it has never been worth spending MC on that many C-bills to avoid some clicking. I don't play to grind C-bills and I'd fall woefully short of outfitting every new mech with modules on top of upgrades like DHS, Endo or engines. I made a habit of pulling my modules off when switching mechs because even if I had a dozen sets I'd still never be able to find them when I needed them.

[oldradagast]

We've been over this.

The skill maze as presented was a tangled web of false choices and gated mandatory skills. It was confusing, sloppy, and failed to achieve any of PGI's supposed goals, such as providing real roles or choices in the game. All it tried to do was substitute GRIND for CONTENT. Now, toss on top the mobility nerf for most mechs, which makes no sense in a game that already has too much long range poking and low TTK, and you had a failure of a proposal.

While I hope PGI gets their act together and comes up with a solid skill system - not 91 shades of grind in a maze structure - I'm not going to blindly go along with the "any change is good" crowd, and I sure as heck am not going to support the people who think this trash should have been "pushed live and fixed dynamically later." Anyone with any experience with PGI in this game should know that would have never worked based on past experiences.