230 replies to this topic

[TercieI]

Skoll, on 21 March 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

A Griffin using SRM 4s over ASRM 6s is a bad Griffin.

Many of the best GRF pilots favor 4ASRM4 on the 3M actually. Allows XL and extreme precision. Smaller alpha but equivalent DPS.

[DrxAbstract]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

Think about what you just said, and there is your answer.....

"Why take an SRM4 over an SRM6+Artemis now"

OK....so why should I take a 2 ton, 1 crit, 3 second cooldown SRM rack over a 4 ton, 3 crit, 4 second cooldown one?


The simple fact that the SRM4 was as, or potentially more effective that a Launcher twice it's mass, and 3x it's size, is exactly why it finally is getting nerfed. No "Lights can't have nice things". It's simple balance.

The short answer is "Firepower". The AS7-S uses 4xASRM6s, as do Griffin splat builds. The majority of builds centered around SRMs with limited hardpoints with tonnage availability (i.e. Most IS Heavy/Assault Missile-capable variants and some Mediums) use the ASRM6 - not ASRM4's or even SRM4s for that simple reason. The builds that use SRM4s of either flavor were the ones with multiple hardpoints or lack the tonnage/hardpoint positioning to support SRM6s (Archer, Catapult, Cyclops, Jenner, Commando). It's more a circumstance of suitability than performance preference, I think. SRM4 is, by the layout of many variants, superior to the SRM6 and nerfing them is only going to make the builds reliant on the worse.

[Skoll]

TercieI, on 21 March 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

Many of the best GRF pilots favor 4ASRM4 on the 3M actually. Allows XL and extreme precision. Smaller alpha but equivalent DPS.

Good for them. Doesn't make it any less a bad Griffin.

[TercieI]

Skoll, on 21 March 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Good for them. Doesn't make it any less a bad Griffin.

Ok. Pretty sure I trust div A comp players in their area of specialty over you.

EDIT: note I said ASRM4s. If you mean vanilla SRM4s, I'd agree with you (and so would those pilots).

Edited by TercieI, 21 March 2017 - 06:43 AM.

[Skoll]

TercieI, on 21 March 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Ok. Pretty sure I trust div A comp players in their area of specialty over you.

Cool story.

[Mystere]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 March 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

The SRM 4 is only better than the 6 without Artemis.

I think that's the whole point: an SRM4 should not be better than the bigger and heavier SRM6.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 21 March 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

I think that's the whole point: an SRM4 should not be better than the bigger and heavier SRM6.

Good thing it isn't currently. Sure it is situationally better, but that is sort of a good thing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 March 2017 - 06:59 AM.

[mogs01gt]

LMAO @ SRM4s are only ran in lights. SRM4s are the standard of almost every medium mech that had 3+ Missile hardpoints. Any medium mech trying to fit ASRM's is simply gimping themselves in a "brawling" mech that is utterly useless for a team vs meta mechs.

Nerfing SRMs shows yet again PGI's inability to balance weapons across hardpoints. Focusing on balancing them against already poorly performing weapons(SRM6s) is truly pathetic.

[R Valentine]

TercieI, on 21 March 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

Many of the best GRF pilots favor 4ASRM4 on the 3M actually. Allows XL and extreme precision. Smaller alpha but equivalent DPS.

So you have a good pilot using a bad build. So what? And if you're gonna use anecdotal evidence then so will I. Many of the best of the best best GRF pilots favor ASRM 6 over ASRM 4. Now what u gonna do?

Mystere, on 21 March 2017 - 06:49 AM, said:

I think that's the whole point: an SRM4 should not be better than the bigger and heavier SRM6.

But they aren't bigger and heavier. 2 x SRM 6 and 3 x SRM 4 weigh the exact same and have the same alpha, only the SRM 4 pack is tighter but runs hotter. Sure, DPS on the 4 is a bit higher, but SRMs are all about alpha anyways, hence why everyone packs 3 or more.

Edited by Kiran Yagami, 21 March 2017 - 07:06 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

"SRM4s shouldn't be better than SRM6 w/Art"

Well no ****.

SRM4s are good for lights and 40 tonners, they are light enough to use. Heavier mediums will opt for aSRM4s or aSRM6s, so what is the problem with that? Literally no reason to nerf SRM4s, other than to nerf light missile boats, because small pulse lights and Vipers really needed a leg up

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

"SRM4s shouldn't be better than SRM6 w/Art"

Well no ****.

SRM4s are good for lights and 40 tonners, they are light enough to use. Heavier mediums will opt for aSRM4s or aSRM6s, so what is the problem with that? Literally no reason to nerf SRM4s, other than to nerf light missile boats, because small pulse lights and Vipers really needed a leg up

50t as well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Skoll, on 21 March 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

A Griffin using SRM 4s over ASRM 6s is a bad Griffin.

The Lighthouse, on 21 March 2017 - 06:34 AM, said:

Why do you use non-Artemis version of SRMs on medium mechs? As someone already said, you are doing something wrong if you do not use 4 ASRM6 on Griffin for example.

non-Artemis SRM4 are mostly used by light mechs due to weight restriction, not so much for medium mechs.


(PLUS: you can no longer bring Stormcrows to Scouting.)

and in reply

TercieI, on 21 March 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

Many of the best GRF pilots favor 4ASRM4 on the 3M actually. Allows XL and extreme precision. Smaller alpha but equivalent DPS.

Also, yes, Skillcrows are banished from Scouting.. perhaps you noted that Scouting was not the focus of the comment, but Medium Mechs were?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Good thing it isn't currently. Sure it is situationally better, but that is sort of a good thing.

Got the current spread numbers hand?

I honestly don't, but the last time (which has been a while) I saw them posted, pretty sure the SRM4 still had a tighter grouping than the aSRM6. (I could be wrong though). If, however, I am not... then no, I can't say aSRM6 is hands down better, since group size matters more for killing than raw damage.

Regardless, there has been a huge uptick in splatbuilds, for quite some time now. Being MWO, things only gain universal acceptance when: Broken. Good is never "good enough", only when OP and Broken are thing s"good enough", generally around here.

Funny I don't see anyone defending the need to buff the poor old SRM2, though.

I would submit that an aSRM2 should be a more efficient weapon system than a std SRM4, just as an aSRM6 should group somewhere in the neighborhood of a std SRM4. (which I may have said totally backwards due to lack of caffeine...)

And Clan Versions with Artemis should group about like IS SRMs without. (half weight and all that jazz)

Butt without the actual spread numbers, it's kind of hard to debate too deeply. Where's McGral18 with his magic spreadsheets when he's needed?

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

Think about what you just said, and there is your answer.....

"Why take an SRM4 over an SRM6+Artemis now"

OK....so why should I take a 2 ton, 1 crit, 3 second cooldown SRM rack over a 4 ton, 3 crit, 4 second cooldown one?

The fact that one is taking the half weight, quicker RoF Launcher over the other should say it all. I love the SRM4, because it (until today) grouped TAF, which always led me to ask "why take an aSRM6 instead of my SRM4" question, since the SRM4 put up less impressive damage stats, but focused better than the aSRM6 and thus killed things better.

The simple fact that the SRM4 was as, or potentially more effective that a Launcher twice it's mass, and 3x it's size, is exactly why it finally is getting nerfed. No "Lights can't have nice things". It's simple balance.

********, it is not "simple balance".

You boat SRM4s when you have a plethora of hardpoints maybe, but no 50-55 tonner is going to bring non-artemis SRM4s, unless they are bringing 6-8 (Hell, a Huntsman will bring 8 SRM4s WITH artemis). If you have 4 hardpoints, its going to be aSRM4s or aSRM6s for sure, NEVER non artemis SRM4s unless you are a 40 tons or less. You either want the more precise DPS or the fire and twist wrecking ball that is quad aSRM6.

[Bishop Steiner]

DrxAbstract, on 21 March 2017 - 06:39 AM, said:

The short answer is "Firepower". The AS7-S uses 4xASRM6s, as do Griffin splat builds. The majority of builds centered around SRMs with limited hardpoints with tonnage availability (i.e. Most IS Heavy/Assault Missile-capable variants and some Mediums) use the ASRM6 - not ASRM4's or even SRM4s for that simple reason. The builds that use SRM4s of either flavor were the ones with multiple hardpoints or lack the tonnage/hardpoint positioning to support SRM6s (Archer, Catapult, Cyclops, Jenner, Commando). It's more a circumstance of suitability than performance preference, I think. SRM4 is, by the layout of many variants, superior to the SRM6 and nerfing them is only going to make the builds reliant on the worse.

or be one step in reversing some of the TTK creep.

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

********, it is not "simple balance".

You boat SRM4s when you have a plethora of hardpoints maybe, but no 50-55 tonner is going to bring non-artemis SRM4s, unless they are bringing 6-8 (Hell, a Huntsman will bring 8 SRM4s WITH artemis). If you have 4 hardpoints, its going to be aSRM4s or aSRM6s for sure, NEVER non artemis SRM4s unless you are a 40 tons or less. You either want the more precise DPS or the fire and twist wrecking ball that is quad aSRM6.

For Clans, perhaps (My TBR-D would disagree, but since I have no magic "1" under my name, I know that is "invalid"). And now? For the IS, yes.

[Redacted]

Kiran Yagami, on 21 March 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

So you have a good pilot using a bad build. So what? And if you're gonna use anecdotal evidence then so will I. Many of the best of the best best GRF pilots favor ASRM 6 over ASRM 4. Now what u gonna do?



But they aren't bigger and heavier. 2 x SRM 6 and 3 x SRM 4 weigh the exact same and have the same alpha, only the SRM 4 pack is tighter but runs hotter. Sure, DPS on the 4 is a bit higher, but SRMs are all about alpha anyways, hence why everyone packs 3 or more.

and 1 SRM4 is 2 tons, where as 1 SRM6 is 3, with Artemis, it's 4. So yes, the SRM6 IS bigger and heavier than the SRM4. But hey, why keep apples to apples?

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 21 March 2017 - 08:57 AM.
unconstructive, reply-chain removed

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

I honestly don't, but the last time (which has been a while) I saw them posted, pretty sure the SRM4 still had a tighter grouping than the aSRM6. (I could be wrong though). If, however, I am not... then no, I can't say aSRM6 is hands down better, since group size matters more for killing than raw damage.

I don't have the spread numbers but regardless, the SRM6 allows you to do more damage per salvo with close spread amounts. The aSRM4 on mechs like the GRF-3M are also stupidly accurate (that allow you to make concentrated shots at 270m). They all have their place right now honestly, I run non-artemis 4s on probably 2 key mechs, the SHD-2D2 and the Oxide (and then there is the Archer). The rest (like the Griffin, Splatapult, Atlas, Cyclops, Mauler) are all aSRM4s or aSRM6s.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

For Clans, perhaps (My TBR-D would disagree, but since I have no magic "1" under my name, I know that is "invalid"). And now? For the IS, yes.

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

You run non-Artemis 4s on your Timber Wolf? Your build isn't optimal then, what else do you have on it that it needs to not bring artemis? (Which is FINE, but for the purpose of this discussion, its not good evidence that non-Artemis SRM4s needed nerfing).

Its already been said... higher ton mediums or heavies should always have artemis on their SRMs unless they are IS and bringing 6+ of them.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

SHD-2D2

Shoot that's right, that one you run non aSRM4s, but that's because it is mixed with an LB10.

Edited by draiocht, 21 March 2017 - 08:48 AM.
Quote Clean-Up, reference

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:13 AM, said:

********, it is not "simple balance".

You boat SRM4s when you have a plethora of hardpoints maybe, but no 50-55 tonner is going to bring non-artemis SRM4s, unless they are bringing 6-8 (Hell, a Huntsman will bring 8 SRM4s WITH artemis). If you have 4 hardpoints, its going to be aSRM4s or aSRM6s for sure, NEVER non artemis SRM4s unless you are a 40 tons or less. You either want the more precise DPS or the fire and twist wrecking ball that is quad aSRM6.

Cents cant fit aSRM4s unless they skimp on ammo or reduce their engine to a 250 or lower which means they arent running fast enough to be useful.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

You run non-Artemis 4s on your Timber Wolf? Your build isn't optimal then, what else do you have on it that it needs to not bring artemis? (Which is FINE, but for the purpose of this discussion, its not good evidence that non-Artemis SRM4s needed nerfing).

Mostly lots of heatsinks. Those er PPCs in the arms get hot. (OHMAHGURD!!!! Mixed weapons and ranges too! What is this blasphemy!!)

General rule for me, and I have to assume PGI? When Comps thinks it "fine" it probably needs to be dialed back 5% because generally, it's only "perfect" for you guys when it's the clear cut meta choice. (oh damn, he went there!)

mogs01gt, on 21 March 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

Cents cant fit aSRM4s unless they skimp on ammo or reduce their engine to a 250 or lower which means they arent running fast enough to be useful.

Cents aren't "meta" anymore though, apparently (or so I've been told) so that is "irrelevant".

[TercieI]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 March 2017 - 07:22 AM, said:

Shoot that's right, that one you run non aSRM4s, but that's because it is mixed with an LB10.

And the fourth launcher is in the head, so you can only run three with Artemis.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 March 2017 - 07:21 AM, said:

I don't have the spread numbers but regardless, the SRM6 allows you to do more damage per salvo with close spread amounts. The aSRM4 on mechs like the GRF-3M are also stupidly accurate (that allow you to make concentrated shots at 270m). They all have their place right now honestly, I run non-artemis 4s on probably 2 key mechs, the SHD-2D2 and the Oxide (and then there is the Archer). The rest (like the Griffin, Splatapult, Atlas, Cyclops, Mauler) are all aSRM4s or aSRM6s.

Well, it's pretty hard to really continue this debate past "how it feels" without the data. So since I'm not trying to call you out, I'd prefer to defer this conversation (since I usually find it can be productive), until data.